Water Baptism

[rudemonk]

Re: Water Baptism

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: uglywhitedude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Groups that believe baptism is necessary for salvation mistakenly regard Peter’s words, “Repent and be baptized” as evidence that belief plus baptism results in salvation. Scripture, however, does not support this view...
</div></div>

sounds like Hank needs to read his gospels a little more.

[julie*mango]

Re: Water Baptism

Thanks for that notsouglywhitedude.


The way my fried puts it is this.


A man and a woman are going out. He treats her wonderfully, is kind to her, respects her, gives her everything she could ever want. This continues for a while until she starts to wonder what is going on. The man loves her and shows her in his actions that he truly does, yet still he won't marry her.

Like marriage, baptism is the symbol of a union, and what makes the union holy. In order to be saved, one has to believe and act accordingly. Baptism is an extension of that faith, solidifying the union between the contrite and God.

[rudemonk]

Re: Water Baptism


what is to be made of this?

Matthew 3:14-15 (New King James Version)

14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?”
15 But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him.

[Diplomat]

Re: Water Baptism

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _______</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The way my fried puts it is this.


A man and a woman are going out. He treats her wonderfully, is kind to her, respects her, gives her everything she could ever want. This continues for a while until she starts to wonder what is going on. The man loves her and shows her in his actions that he truly does, yet still he won't marry her.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Like marriage, baptism is the symbol of a union, and what makes the union holy.</span> In order to be saved, one has to believe and act accordingly. Baptism is an extension of that faith, solidifying the union between the contrite and God. </div></div>
Love the romanticism but the bolded sentence - and it's implication - isn't quite true. Baptism <span style="font-style: italic">identifies</span> the believer with Christ; it doesn't solidify or make holy the union.

[julie*mango]

Re: Water Baptism

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
what is to be made of this?

Matthew 3:14-15 (New King James Version)

14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?”
15 But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him.

</div></div>


The New International version reads verse 15 as this
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 15Jesus replied, &quot;Let it be so now; <span style="font-weight: bold">it is proper for us to do this </span>to fulfill all righteousness.&quot; Then John consented.</div></div>

[Compry]

Re: Water Baptism

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChurchDude</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _______</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The way my fried puts it is this.


A man and a woman are going out. He treats her wonderfully, is kind to her, respects her, gives her everything she could ever want. This continues for a while until she starts to wonder what is going on. The man loves her and shows her in his actions that he truly does, yet still he won't marry her.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Like marriage, baptism is the symbol of a union, and what makes the union holy.</span> In order to be saved, one has to believe and act accordingly. Baptism is an extension of that faith, solidifying the union between the contrite and God. </div></div>
Love the romanticism but the bolded sentence - and it's implication - isn't quite true. Baptism <span style="font-style: italic">identifies</span> the believer with Christ; it doesn't solidify or make holy the union. </div></div>

True.

[uglywhitedude]

Re: Water Baptism

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
sounds like Hank needs to read his gospels a little more. </div></div>

Perhaps &quot;hank&quot; would be equally amused to your ignorance in quoting scripture without understanding it's context.

[rudemonk]

Re: Water Baptism

On the contrary, I can tell already from the little bit of his thought process he is bringing a knife to a gun fight. In any case I would love to engage Hank in debate.

I wager his position would be folded up rather nicely and summarily, like everyone else who relies on the mystery of there being an impossible god to buttress and shore up their faulty cherry picked premises, a mystery which they must always ultimately rely on as their final answer to the inevitable logical conclusion of their faith. It happens incessantly. And I would love for him to actually be able to answer and defeat my points.

[acceptedtoday]

Re: Water Baptism

Yes it is.

Problem here is that people compare grace to works of salvation, rather than grace and works of the law.

Grace leads us to obedience through faith, and the works that follow are a result of that faith.

Dead works is works of the law substituting for grace there is a difference.

Paul wrote in Ephesians, to the saints (those already saved - Eph 1:1) at Ephesus, that they were saved by grace through faith and not of works...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Paul wrote that to the church in Ephesus - let's see what Paul did with some he found in Ephesus...

Now Paul in Ephesus in Acts 19:1-6 found John's disciples and corrected them and re-baptized them in the name of Jesus and they rec'd the Holy Ghost

Were they in Ephesus in Acts 19 saved by grace through faith and not of works?
Yes they were...They were saved by grace in that what Jesus did on the cross, we did not deserve

And through their faith they obeyed Paul and were re-baptized in the name of Jesus and they rec'd the Holy Ghost

In Acts 19 at Ephesus with Paul, they were saved by grace through faith, just like the Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles

In Acts 19 at Ephesus with Paul, they were not saved by the works of the OT law, just like Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles weren't either

There you have it - apostolic doctrine contains salvation by grace through faith and not of works

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Works = works of the law

Eph 2:9 - works - ergon - er'-gon - From ?????? ergo? (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.

Every where you see &quot;works of the law&quot; in the NT the greek word for works is ergon - just like in Eph 2:9

Works of the law - works = ergon -

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Deeds of the law - deeds = ergon - Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Another reason we know that &quot;works&quot; in Eph 2:9 is the works of the law is in the context of Eph 2...

Eph 2:10 We are his workman ship
Eph 2:11 says Wherefore remember... - or because of everything i just said, remember...
Eph 2:12 you were lost...
Eph 2:13 but now you are in christ jesus...
Eph 2:14 For... = in greek, assigning a reason for what was said before...
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

To paraphrase - Eph 2:10-15 - We are his workmanship...Wherefore remember...you were lost...but now you are in Jesus...For what he did...Having abolished...the law

The CONTEXT of Eph 2:8-15 shows that works in Eph 2:9 = works of the OT law

Many times in scripture Paul contrasted the 2 belief systems - OT works of the law and the NT belief system of faith in Jesus

[acceptedtoday]

Re: Water Baptism

The answer to this question is found in the OT laws regarding sin sacrifices.
(Lev. 1) There we find three components in God's Plan: Death (sacrifice), Washing, Fire.

A sin offering was brought voluntarily and was killed.
Then it was washed,
then it was burned on the altar.

This was necessary to completely atone for sin
just as the death,
burial
and resurrection of Jesus
was necessary for our redemption.

Likewise our death to sin (repentance),
our washing with water (baptism)
and our offering ourselves as a burnt offering (Holy Ghosts and FIRE)
is necessary to complete the work of redemption.

John wrote in
1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth,
the Spirit,
and the water,
and the blood:
and these three agree in one.

It takes the blood (repentance+death),
water (washing=burial),
and Spirit (Holy Ghost,= resurrection)

to fully complete the work of salvation.

If water baptism alone brings salvation, then there is no need to repent and receive the Holy Ghost.

It takes all three to fully complete the work of grace just as it took the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus to complete the atonement for sin.

http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/Acts238baptism.htm

[britisha]

Re: Water Baptism

I find it amazing that some people will venture to discuss topics that they know nothing, nothing of which they &quot;speak&quot;..

Cha !! why even bother?

[julie*mango]

Re: Water Baptism

why yu always a trow cawn fi ppl who nuh know seh a dem yu a trow cawn fah...well .... at least me nuh know...

[rudemonk]

Re: Water Baptism

Accepted- please forgive me, but I have never seen a bigger heap of malarcky than this idea of animal sacrifice being something God set up.

Can you explain the mechanism of this? I mean, ethically, how exactly does that work?

It's a wonder I can't pay my speeding ticket with a slit neck chicken and blood splash.

Seriously, I just do not think you are fully considering the implications of what you just wrote, what it actually means.

[Mutty]

Re: Water Baptism

Yet another example of why there are eleventy-billion churches, supposedly serving one god with just as much differing opinions and interpretations out of one book.

[acceptedtoday]

Re: Water Baptism

A shadow

But why bother trying to explain,
to you this is but marlaky you wont consider it, even if these words came off the LCD and bit you in the butt