Water Baptism

[acceptedtoday]

Re: Water Baptism

Seriously Mutty,

ALBERT EISTEIN was a brilliant man and even today some brilliant minds cannot fathom his works, that can be said of so many things we have varying interpretations of. Like healthcare.

Much less the mind of God who can know it.
We all have our sacred cows.
We all see through a glass darkly.
But there is sometimes truth in debate if we free our minds from our biases.

Unfortunately power, politics, position and pride stops us from the unity of the faith.

Even atheists and Agnostics pick and choose what they believe.

[rudemonk]

Re: Water Baptism

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: accepted2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A shadow

But why bother trying to explain,
to you this is but marlaky you wont consider it, even if these words came off the LCD and bit you in the butt </div></div>

You are incorrect sir. I am considering it quite carefully. Hence the malarcky conclusion.

It's found extremely wanting, for about 15 reasons off the top of my head, biblically speaking.

Let me ask you something, can you think of a way to falsify what you have stated?

[acceptedtoday]

Re: Water Baptism

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Compray</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _______</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What about John 3:5 &quot;Jesus answered, &quot;I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.&quot;

Isn't that indicative of baptism? </div></div>

From gotquestions.org. Lengthy but worth the read.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Question</span>: &quot;Does John 3:5 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?&quot;

If “being born of water and the Spirit” is not referring to baptism, then what does it mean? Traditionally, there have been two interpretations of this phrase. The first is that being “born of water” is being used by Jesus to refer to natural birth (with water referring to the amniotic fluid that surrounds the baby in the womb) and that being born of the “Spirit” indicates spiritual birth. While that is certainly a possible interpretation of the term “born of water” and would seem to fit the context of Nicodemus’ question about how a man could be born “when he is old,” it is not the best interpretation given the context of this passage. After all, Jesus was not talking about the difference between natural birth and spiritual birth. What He was doing was explaining to Nicodemus his need to be “born from above” or “born again.”
</div></div>

Compray
Another perspective


<span style="font-weight: bold">Ye must be Born Again</span>
These are some of the most important words, and some of the most familiar words, in the entire Bible.

With these 5 simple words, Jesus revealed just what it means to be a Christian. But, what do these words really mean?

The answer to that question varies among the various Christian groups. But we can know precisely what Jesus meant by looking directly at the discourse between Jesus and Nicodemus in John 3.

By studying this discourse in the absence of preconceived religious rhetoric, we can find the answer we seek. And, in so doing , we can strip away some of the controversy surrounding the subject of being <span style="font-weight: bold">“born again”.</span>

<span style="font-style: italic">Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God</span>.

Its important to note the exact words that Jesus used here. The key words for this study are<span style="color: #3333FF"> see and kingdom of God.
</span>

The word “see” here has various meanings, but, by comparing Scripture with Scripture, we can know exactly what thought Jesus meant to convey.
Of course, the word “see” means “to look, to observe with the eyes, to inspect”, but, we know that Jesus said in Luke 17:20 that . “<span style="color: #3333FF">The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: “ We cannot see the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is not some tangible something that can be seen with the natural eye.</span>
<span style="color: #3333FF">
So, in John 3:3, when Jesus used the word “see” he meant “to perceive, notice, discern, discover, to experience any state or condition, to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand,percieve </span>

Jesus was saying to Nicodemus: <span style="font-weight: bold">&quot;Except a man be born again, he cannot understand or comprehend the Kingdom of God.”</span>
And, we know this is true by once again comparing Scripture with Scripture.
<span style="color: #3333FF">The Apostle Paul wrote in 1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.&quot;</span>

The “natural man” is the unconverted, the unregenerated man. Someone who has not been “born again” cannot know, or understand, the things of God.

<span style="font-weight: bold">The Kingdom of God and not Heaven.</span>

Again, the precise words that Jesus used is very important. Jesus said,
<span style="font-style: italic">Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.</span>

Notice the term <span style="font-weight: bold">“kingdom of God”</span> is used instead of the words “kingdom of heaven”.

This is significant because there is a vast difference in the two kingdoms.

<span style="font-weight: bold">The kingdom of God refers to the Church of the Living God. When a person is “born again” , he becomes a part of the Kingdom of God or the Church.</span>

The Kingdom of God is the here and now, while the Kingdom of Heaven is the hereafter.

Again, compare Scripture with Scripture.

<span style="font-style: italic">Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.&quot;</span>

The term “Kingdom of God” is synonymous with “The Church”, “the Body of Christ”.

The Kingdom of Heaven refers to “the abode of the righteous dead”. The hereafter.

Unless we are born again, we cannot even comprehend the Body of Christ, and we certainly cannot enter therein.

The second statement Jesus spoke to Nicodemus is this:
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit,<span style="color: #FF6600"> he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.</span>

There is a slight difference in wording here when compared with
John 3:3. There, Jesus used the word <span style="color: #3333FF">“see”</span>. Here is uses the word<span style="color: #FF6600"> “enter”.</span> A slight difference, indeed, but a very significant difference, to say the least.

There are other subtle differences between verse 3 and verse 5:.

In verse 3 Jesus used the term “born AGAIN”.
In verse 5, He said, “born of water and of the Spirit.“

Admittedly, it seems we are “splitting hairs” here, but the understanding of the precise words here is crucial.

The fact that we must be born again is so vital, Jesus reiterated the statement in verse 7. Notice again: “born AGAIN” and “born of water and of the Spirit”.

Notice the absence of the word “again” in verse 5? This is significant.
Jesus is telling Nicodemus that, unless we are born of the water and Sprit, we can not enter the kingdom of God. <span style="color: #33CC00">Through repentance, we can <span style="font-weight: bold">see</span>, or understand the things of God (i.e, our worship, basic biblical teaching, etc), <span style="font-weight: bold">but, unless we obey the Lord by being baptized in water and receiving the Holy Ghost, we cannot fully enter</span> the depths of a relationship with the Lord. </span>

The Bible tells us <span style="font-style: italic">“And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him“. Act 5:32 </span>

Unless we completely submit to Him, the Holy Spirit, by which the Gifts of the Spirit operate, are not available to us.

Without obeying, or submitting, to the Lord, we cannot enter into service for the Lord.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Spiritual… not natural</span>

Some believe Jesus was speaking of the natural birth in this discussion with Nicodemus. The inquiring Nicodemus, who had not yet been “born again”, could not understand what Jesus was saying.

He even asked, <span style="font-style: italic">“Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?” Jhn 3:4 </span>

Jesus’ answer made it clear that Jesus was not speaking of the natural birth.
<span style="color: #33CC00">&quot;That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Jhn 3:6 &quot;</span>.

Nowhere in this discourse was Jesus referring to the natural birth. He was speaking of a <span style="font-weight: bold">“spiritual rebirth”</span>

Moses saw…but did not enter

The Old Testament gives a prime example. Moses led the Children of Israel through the wilderness.
At one point, Moses failed to obey God. As result, <span style="color: #33CC00">Moses was ony allowed to SEE the Promised Land, but, due to his failure, was not able to ENTER into Canaan. The repentant, by virtual of being “born again” can see (or understand) the things of God, but, unless He fully submits to the Lord, can never fully “enter” in to God’s Kingdom and service.</span>

Paul made this clear in <span style="font-style: italic">I Corinthians 12: 13, “For by one Spirit are we baptized (born, enter) into One Body…</span>.”

By reading this discourse in the absence a pre-concieved teaching, we can readily see:

1. Repentance- Being born again, regenerated, without which we cannot understand or see the things of God. We are in spiritual darkness until we come to Jesus, the Light of the World.

2. Water Baptism- The first step in the new Christian life. We submit to water baptism as a public profession of our faith in the saving Blood of Jesus Christ.

3. Holy Ghost Baptism- Our Power for service and living a victorious Christian Life. The Gifts of the Spirit become available to us when we receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost, whereby we can ENTER into The Lord’s service.

Wrestling with the Scriptures

In conclusion…Jesus was not, as some think, speaking of the natural birth. He made that point abundantly clear. And, He was not referring to the Kingdom of Heaven.

To use this discourse to argue the point that one must be born again to enter heaven is, as Peter said, to “wrest with the Scriptures”.

<span style="font-style: italic">&quot;As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2Pe 3:16&quot;</span>

Plainly spoken, it is mis-applying the Scriptures to fit our belief, when, in fact, we should be examining, and, if necessary, re-aligning our beliefs in light of the Scriptures...

Jesus was simply and clearly saying that, unless we are “reborn spiritually”, we cannot even begin to understand the very fundamentals of the Christian Life. And, He continued by saying that, unless we are “born of water and Spirit”, (signify the departure from the sinful life (baptism) and receiving the Holy Ghost), we cannot fully and completely enter in to the Lord’s work (His Kingdom).
__________________

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Water Baptism

That is for people whodon't do daily showers.
as use to be the case in those days.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _______</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it necessary for salvation? </div></div>

[rudemonk]

Re: Water Baptism

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: accepted2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

...Again, the precise words that Jesus used is very important. Jesus said,
<span style="font-style: italic">Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.</span>

Notice the term <span style="font-weight: bold">“kingdom of God”</span> is used instead of the words “kingdom of heaven”.

</div></div>

for precision, as near as it can get anyway, you must go back to the greek.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This is significant because there is a vast difference in the two kingdoms.

<span style="font-weight: bold">The kingdom of God refers to the Church of the Living God. When a person is “born again” , he becomes a part of the Kingdom of God or the Church.</span>

The Kingdom of God is the here and now, while the Kingdom of Heaven is the hereafter.
</div></div>

really.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Again, compare Scripture with Scripture.

<span style="font-style: italic">Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.&quot;</span>

The term “Kingdom of God” is synonymous with “The Church”, “the Body of Christ”.

The Kingdom of Heaven refers to “the abode of the righteous dead”. The hereafter.
</div></div>

then I introduce the following torpedo:
<span style="font-weight: bold">Matthew 19:14.
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of <span style="font-style: italic">heaven</span>...</span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Without obeying, or submitting, to the Lord, we cannot enter into service for the Lord.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Spiritual… not natural</span>
</div></div>

Jesus admits something very different, actually.

A question- if the gospel writers were so sure of what Jesus' message was, don't you think there would have been a clear cut case which they could have used to lay out, unequivocably, what it was?

OF COURSE THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN. However, people make things up out of wholecloth, mythologizing occurs over time (study the mormons or rasta for very good case study of relatively modern 'religions')....for a glaring example simply scan the gospel texts for proof that Jesus came to wash away Original Sin. He never states this. EVER. And yet, there are whole swathes of christendom proclaiming this, flying in the face of the same science they use to save their lives.

It's not there. Which means that early christians had no concept of this, until it was made up to explain why the Son of God &quot;had to&quot; die, and why there was still evil in the world. As it is, if you understand science, God let several hundred thousand years go by before he came down and taught the children whom he 'loved' so much, letting them die without hope or knowledge. That said for those who believe you must accept Jesus to gain salvation.

Haven't you ever wondered why the gospel of Luke for example, says that Satan entered into Judas Iscariot.

[rudemonk]

Re: Water Baptism

comparing matthew with mark, there are two passages saying the same thing, but one uses heaven and the other kingdom.