Why are we all born godless?

[Mutty]

Re: Why are we all born godless?

We are all tattooed in our cradles with the beliefs of our tribe; the record may seem superficial, but it is indelible. You cannot educate a man wholly out of the superstitious fears which were implanted in his imagination, no matter how utterly his reason may reject them.

~<span style="font-weight: bold">Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr</span>., The Poet at the Breakfast Table, 1872

[Peasie]

Re: Why are we all born godless?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mutty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We are all tattooed in our cradles with the beliefs of our tribe; the record may seem superficial, but it is indelible. You cannot educate a man wholly out of the superstitious fears which were implanted in his imagination, no matter how utterly his reason may reject them.

~<span style="font-weight: bold">Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr</span>., The Poet at the Breakfast Table, 1872 </div></div>Like I suggested earlier, maybe we are born with some kind of imprint

[rudemonk]

Re: Why are we all born godless?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Peasie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _____</div><div class="ubbcode-body">all human beings have the desire to worship...Other than the standard supreme beings of the major religions..some worship the sun, moon, trees, etc...others worship statues and ornaments....some worship themselves... </div></div>We are fascinated with ourselves, aren't we? I'm not being facetious with that question. I mean that humans have a way of looking inward and around us and being fascinated by it all.

From the Bible, Psalm 139:14 &quot;I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful,I know that full well.&quot;

From the Koran <span style="font-style: italic">&quot;Do you want a sign, when the whole creation is full of the signs of God? The structure of your body, how wonderfully complex, how beautifully regulated; the alternations of night and day, of life and death; your sleeping and awakening; your desire to accumulate from the abundance of God, the winds driving abroad the pregnant harmony and order in the midst of diversity; the variety of the human race, and yet their close affinity; fruits, flowers, animals, human beings themselves—<span style="font-weight: bold">are these not signs enough of the presence of a Master-Mind?&quot; </span></span></div></div>

the part I italicized and bolded is arguable. the more we know, the less well 'designed' a lot things which were once thought miraculous actually are.

[Peasie]

Re: Why are we all born godless?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the more we know, the less well 'designed' a lot things which were once thought miraculous actually are. </div></div> Yes, this is true. Also true is that the more we know, the deeper our questions are about God, don't you think? Which makes me wonder ...how some academics (C.S. Lewis, Antony Flew come to mind) and scientists come to a realization that they believe in God? That to them, God exists?? And I wonder when they do, what made them come to that belief? I also wonder if they come to a realization that, even with vast knowledge, their sense of God is not that different than, say, a child's?

[f0rTyLeGz]

Re: Why are we all born godless?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the part I italicized and bolded is arguable. the more we know, the less well 'designed' a lot things which were once thought miraculous actually are. </div></div>
This is a link to a popular Intelligent Design blog. http://www.uncommondescent.com/ They are down on Darwin also.

[rudemonk]

Re: Why are we all born godless?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Peasie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the more we know, the less well 'designed' a lot things which were once thought miraculous actually are. </div></div> Yes, this is true. Also true is that the more we know, the deeper our questions are about God, don't you think? Which makes me wonder ...how some academics (C.S. Lewis, Antony Flew come to mind) and scientists come to a realization that they believe in God? That to them, God exists?? And I wonder when they do, what made them come to that belief? I also wonder if they come to a realization that, even with vast knowledge, their sense of God is not that different than, say, a child's? </div></div>

I think that generally speaking, if you talk with a lot of those scientists who propose that there is a God, that their conception of this entity is vastly different from what is held in common belief.

Personally I've always maintained that there is no proof either way, so one must allow for the possibility either way. However, once someone makes a statement about God, that is when you can start to know things. You can know what this entity is not.

That puts a lot of beliefs on the scrap heap, and sadly, people are too entrenched and too inflexible to encounter this kind of growth to their benefit. Most would prefer to believe in what they do, simply because it is comfortable and has become a social construct. I also, personally, think that is completely at odds with what some of the great spiritual teachers were getting at when they wrestled with these archetypes and hammered out the basis of their mythologies. I doubt very much that Yashua would recognize 99% of the Christians of today as his followers.

[rudemonk]

Re: Why are we all born godless?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the part I italicized and bolded is arguable. the more we know, the less well 'designed' a lot things which were once thought miraculous actually are. </div></div>
This is a link to a popular Intelligent Design blog. http://www.uncommondescent.com/ They are down on Darwin also. </div></div>

one of the problems inherent in using the internet.

[Nylah]

Re: Why are we all born godless?

But babes, does it matter that some scientist's belief in God differs radically from what the mainstream beleives he is all about? The common thread is belief that he exists in some form. I agree ppl can then argue and discuss the parameters in which God exists or who he is ad naseum...but there is something to be said for their continued and if not stronger belief in a power greater than us orchestrating life in some capacity.

What may have been deemed miraculous a few centuries ago, yes can be explained as it were thru scientific theories, but I still dont see the argument against why God doesnt exist just because we can explain certain phenomenom better today than we could 2 centuries ago.

I think it is the opposite. We are not born godless...being a baby with no communication skills doesnt inherently imply godlessness to me....children have an inate capacity to sense something greater than them as it were. Okay, we can argue that it is jsut their parents but you get what I mean. It is after we do get indoctrinated with the beliefs of our parents that we turn either for or against the argument of God's existence. Again, the parameters in which to believe him gets shifted or distorted, ie) rejecting what we are told about him in Sunday school, or Temple...and the &quot;baby&quot; gets thrown out with the bath water as it were.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Peasie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the more we know, the less well 'designed' a lot things which were once thought miraculous actually are. </div></div> Yes, this is true. Also true is that the more we know, the deeper our questions are about God, don't you think? Which makes me wonder ...how some academics (C.S. Lewis, Antony Flew come to mind) and scientists come to a realization that they believe in God? That to them, God exists?? And I wonder when they do, what made them come to that belief? I also wonder if they come to a realization that, even with vast knowledge, their sense of God is not that different than, say, a child's? </div></div>

I think that generally speaking, if you talk with a lot of those scientists who propose that there is a God, that their conception of this entity is vastly different from what is held in common belief.

Personally I've always maintained that there is no proof either way, so one must allow for the possibility either way. However, once someone makes a statement about God, that is when you can start to know things. You can know what this entity is not.

That puts a lot of beliefs on the scrap heap, and sadly, people are too entrenched and too inflexible to encounter this kind of growth to their benefit. Most would prefer to believe in what they do, simply because it is comfortable and has become a social construct. I also, personally, think that is completely at odds with what some of the great spiritual teachers were getting at when they wrestled with these archetypes and hammered out the basis of their mythologies. I doubt very much that Yashua would recognize 99% of the Christians of today as his followers. </div></div>

[Peasie]

Re: Why are we all born godless?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That puts a lot of beliefs on the scrap heap, and sadly, <span style="font-weight: bold">people are too entrenched and too inflexible to encounter this kind of growth to their benefit</span>. Most would prefer to believe in what they do, simply because it is comfortable and has become a social construct. </div></div>

I agree with this, Monk. And a problem is that some religious people become so arrogant about their own comfort zone or social construct that they will do whatever it takes to maintain that zone ... even to the point of losing the original intent of their core beliefs! I don't have to draw out examples as there are enough throughout the history of the world and current events!

[rudemonk]

Re: Why are we all born godless?

depends- what I'm specifically referring to is the personified God people develop- typical example being that conception we are regaled of in the Bible and Koran, or the book of Latter Day Saints, or the Iliad. Generally these conceptions are quite literally absurd and miss the total point of their own mythology. Case in point, very very very precious few argue the existence of Zeus or Thor as being the reason why we have lightning and thunder. When thunder peals across the sky, nobody falls to their knees in gratitude to Thor for vanquishing another Frost Giant- the thunder being the sound of his hammer crushing their evil skulls. Nobody looks at a mountain range and literally believes it's the body of a Titan.

It's very apparent that the real estate this kind of personified God, who sits at the threshold of ignorance where he can thrive, haphazardly (to anyone rationally looking at his modality) dispensing boons and curses- or allowing one of his agents access to our creation from which to operate on behalf of pure evil to satisfy our understanding of good and evil- that conception has lost ground except to ignorance.

so when I would say, a good scientist- because there are of course miserably bad ones- acknowledges the possibility of some powerful being- he does not succumb very easily to the God of the Gaps- in other words, when for example he looks at embryonic development, say across several species and sees that the embryos of a bat, a human baby, a whale, a chicken, or a dog- are practically indistinguishable from one another until advanced gestation when they begin to differentiate according to type due to the same exact genes being activated by genetic switches going off differently from organism to organism, does not need nor does he resort to saying- GOD is the cause of this...and He is a wondrous being whom we should glorify...

Maybe he *is* the agent or author of this all- but the more we know the more flawed we see the design by which life lives itself out really and truly is- incredible and wondrous no doubt- but the claim it is authored by intelligence would then invoke an according understanding and that is not how it is, despite how wonderful or aweinspiring it is, it is not well designed at all once we introduce any of the standard claims ascribed to a deity. Nobody can point to say, the plains of the Serenghetti and see a morally applied design, or ethically developed, just way of life for it's creatures. Or the arctic plains upon which various birds and mammals eke out a life barely supported by their environment...

What kind of God designs a lion, a hyena, a hawk, a polar bear, or a shark? And why? What kind of God designs a control for a population by disease, starvation, consumption of known limited resources, or war...? These things logically stand against any conception of a benevolent, omniscient, omnipotent being. So we quickly see that the pressures of natural selection are a far better mechanism which does not hover into absurdistan, to explain what we are able to test and observe about existence.

Again, the argument can not necessarily be about a being's existence- only what is claimed about that existence. Mutty just posted a brilliant video laying it out logically and succinctly. And once one makes a claim, that claim can be tested, and it's no longer enough for the claimant to erect an absurd bulwark against their claim being deflated by either invoking ignorance or the epic shrug of the shoulder and citing to man's improper or incapability to understand- especially when out of the very next side of the mouth comes the grand explanation for everything except for the contradictory things which can not be explained about their claims lol. For example, I'd say a common motif we see is that of the interventionary God who is moved to dispense some boon or other to the individual- sometimes rather petty when all things are considered. This kind of intervention often begs some major questions, which are rarely engaged by the supposed recipient of the boon.

I mean the foundation of a lot of people's beliefs are completely absurd- take Christianity as it stands today. The premise is an omniscient God, who already knows everything, would allow his creation to fall at the hands of another aspect of his creation, and chooses willfully not to stop that, and then again chooses to make things right by an epic and disgustingly brutal self sacrifice.

The motif of self sacrificial Gods is not a new one, but they are not omnipotent nor omniscient- they do these kinds of things to gain power and knowledge, like the God Odin who hangs himself on a tree (a world axis) and pierces himself with a spear. Sounds familiar doesn't it.

You hit the nail on the head when you say we gain our understanding of God from indoctrination- sure there may be a grander conception that is loosely conceptualized in the magnificence of the Great Beyond, which can inherently be understood by kids. But that is different to me than saying that science has over the years eroded the functionality of God being a mechanism of explanation and an excuse.

People often make the mistake of thinking that a challenge to their doctrine results in the throwing of the baby out with the bath water- but that in reality is a fault of their understanding the finer points of the argument. It is only *their* conception of what the baby is that is thrown out with the water, which is evaporating.

[rudemonk]

Re: Why are we all born godless?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Peasie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I agree with this, Monk. And a problem is that some religious people become so arrogant about their own comfort zone or social construct that they will do whatever it takes to maintain that zone ... even to the point of losing the original intent of their core beliefs! I don't have to draw out examples as there are enough throughout the history of the world and current events!

</div></div>

yes, exactly, it makes one want to carry around a mace made of a tyrannosaur's thigh bone lol. especially when say, for the last eight years people with such issues sit in the highest office attainable by any person in the free world.

[Peasie]

Re: Why are we all born godless?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I mean the foundation of a lot of people's beliefs are completely absurd- take Christianity as it stands today. The premise is an omniscient God, who already knows everything, would allow his creation to fall at the hands of another aspect of his creation, and chooses willfully not to stop that, and then again chooses to make things right by an epic and disgustingly brutal self sacrifice.</div></div>
Here's how I see it. Our understanding of God is limited by our own insistence on categorizing God, putting him* in a nice, tidy, little box that we can control. But God's ways are not our ways. I do not understand the entirety of God but if I do then he wouldn't be God, would he? I do accept some things - goodness, grace, omniscience, for e.g. - and I struggle with some things - hatred, children suffering, diseases, wars, for e.g. But this is part of my journeying with God.


*no gender intended

[rudemonk]

Re: Why are we all born godless?

Peasie- why do you think you can't come to grips with what God is? I'll grant you can make the case of ignorance strictly by introducing the fact that if God exists God does not directly communicate with creation.

But I would suggest that you do in fact have all the tools necessary to comprehend God if he exists.

The question I would pose is- If such an entity as God exists and he is beyond our human comprehension- which is an odd statement considering we have conceived of God's existence already- then what is the point of there being such a being?

[Peasie]

Re: Why are we all born godless?

Monk, it is not that God is beyond our human comprehension. That's not what I meant. I meant that *all* that God is, is not *within* our human comprehension. But I do not have the gift of words to explain what I mean . The parts of God that I accept are goodness, grace, and a pure kind of love. Even so I don't understand or even comprehend these in their entirety. But I choose to accept them.

[mountaingal]

Re: Why are we all born godless?

on the question of scientists believing in God. i think it's a matter of beauty: there is beauty in the just discovered, and the emotion and sense of achievement can be overwhelming, and some scientists need to transpose that to other than themselves in order to deal with it. i read an article one time about a scientist who &quot;turned&quot; from atheism, but he did not believe in a specific god of the bible or such, but in a sense, in the idea of the unknown unknowable, waiting to become known - to reveal or be revealed.

of course, in the past, many scientists did not see a conflict in their belief in a specific god, and devoted much of their energy and discoveries to the glory of god.