In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

[eloquor]

If you are a believer, where do you believe Judas would probably end up, and why?

[DC]

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

Hey Quodlibet, There is no "I don't know' option.

<span style="font-style: italic">Welcome back to this side by the way </span>

[quodlibet]

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

IDK too easy!

After all, its not like we are spending money on this opinion...

(thanx for the welcome back)

[DC]

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

But Quodlibet, why couldn't IDK it be a genuine option/response?

(ur welcome )

[quodlibet]

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Silent_River</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But Quodlibet, why couldn't IDK it be a genuine option/response?

(ur welcome )
</div></div>

Yes, it would be a genuine response, but I would prefer to provoke a discussion and that most likely comes from having an opinion and contrasting that with the opinions of someone else.

There is nothing saying that your opinion cant change, but we too often take the easy way out and not take a side

[DC]

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quodlibet</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Silent_River</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But Quodlibet, why couldn't IDK it be a genuine option/response?

(ur welcome )
</div></div>

Yes, it would be a genuine response, but I would prefer to provoke a discussion and that most likely comes from having an opinion and contrasting that with the opinions of someone else.

<span style="font-weight: bold">There is nothing saying that your opinion cant change, but we too often take the easy way out and not take a side </span></div></div>


I hear ya, but....

You know, in this situation, can one be absolutely certain that its heaven or hell?

I would want to think the real issue here is not Judas, but suicide, which is the determining factor in his eternal destiny in the story.

I would contend that when we explore the grace of God and the scope of his mercy, can one be absolutely certain either way?

What if the motive for 'I don't know' is just plain honesty and not a 'cop out'?

[quodlibet]

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Silent_River</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quodlibet</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Silent_River</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But Quodlibet, why couldn't IDK it be a genuine option/response?

(ur welcome )
</div></div>

Yes, it would be a genuine response, but I would prefer to provoke a discussion and that most likely comes from having an opinion and contrasting that with the opinions of someone else.

<span style="font-weight: bold">There is nothing saying that your opinion cant change, but we too often take the easy way out and not take a side </span></div></div>


I hear ya, but....

You know, in this situation, can one be absolutely certain that its heaven or hell?

I would want to think the real issue here is not Judas, but suicide, which is the determining factor in his eternal destiny in the story.

I would contend that when we explore the grace of God and the scope of his mercy, can one be absolutely certain either way?

What if the motive for 'I don't know' is just plain honesty and not a 'cop out'?
</div></div>

I understand.

That being said, the fact that the question implies two probable destinations that are tied to the 'after-life', its possible that the ONLY definite answer would be 'IDK' - so maybe its better to share our opinions and thoughts about the topic, rather than our certainties

I recognize the suicide angle, although there are those possible moments between gravity kicking in and the grim reaper getting to collect that the person could conceivably indicate spiritual remorse...

[DC]

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quodlibet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
- so maybe its better to share our opinions and thoughts about the topic, rather than our certainties </div></div>
Agreed.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quodlibet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I recognize the suicide angle, although there are those possible moments between gravity kicking in and the grim reaper getting to collect that the person could conceivably indicate spiritual remorse... </div></div>

Yeah..
There are great arguments for both heaven or hell, as Judas was in fact remorseful and repented in his actions by trying to give the coins back to the Priests, so some say heaven must be his destiny.
Then there are others who say it is not sorrowful repentance, because he hanged himself, which is an action in christendom that is known to be unforgivable, so hell it is: reason? it is akin to committing murder on your fellow man (only you took your own life-murdered oneself).

But what is different with Judas, and the mentally challenged or mentally ill who took his/her own life? Can we say grace is not extended to these folks also?

<span style="font-style: italic">sarry mi just a share mi thoughts </span>

[rudemonk]

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

wouldn't his final destination be more tied to his mission?

[quodlibet]

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Silent_River</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yeah..
There are great arguments for both heaven or hell, as Judas was in fact remorseful and repented in his actions by trying to give the coins back to the Priests, so some say heaven must be his destiny.
Then there are others who say it is not sorrowful repentance, because he hanged himself, which is an action in christendom that is known to be unforgivable, so hell it is: reason? it is akin to committing murder on your fellow man (only you took your own life-murdered oneself).

But what is different with Judas, and the mentally challenged or mentally ill who took his/her own life? Can we say grace is not extended to these folks also?

<span style="font-style: italic">sarry mi just a share mi thoughts </span> </div></div>

I am not so sure about this whole &quot;suicide-equals-automatic-hell&quot; idea, because suicide itself is a fungible thing. For example, if I know that a train is coming in two hours on a dark stretch of rail, and I intentionally allow myself to fall asleep on the rails, is that suicide? If I know that some people are going to come for me in the dead of night, that I will be tried, and crucified in a certain number of days, is that suicide? Is there a difference between 'by your own hand' and not stepping out of the way of an event that you know will be fatal?

And finally, never apologize for sharing your thoughts - many people <span style="font-weight: bold">don't have any to share</span>.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">wouldn't his final destination be more tied to his mission? </div></div>

Thank you monk, and this is part of the reason for my post - is the mission what determines the destination, or the action associated with that mission?

[DC]

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Quod:</span> And finally, never apologize for sharing your thoughts - many people don't have any to share.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Silentriver:</span> Why thank you Quodlibet. I was not apologizing for my thoughts, I was apologizing for how they are shared. I was thinking and writing at the same time and sometimes when that happens, what I have written is not that clear for the reader. </div></div>

Case and point:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not so sure about this whole &quot;suicide-equals-automatic-hell&quot; idea,</div></div>

Let me clairfy some: In Christendom, suicide is taught as an ‘automatic hell destination’. So in this story, the issue of suicide is of more importance to the Christian and Judas' destination. What Judas did (as in his betrayal of Jesus), IMO, is of lesser importance when one is determining his destination, because in christendom, we believe that God can have mercy on a murderer/liar/one who betrays/thief/backslider..just about everything Judas was as stated in the biblical accounts.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> monk:
wouldn't his final destination be more tied to his mission?</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quodlibet:Thank you monk, and this is part of the reason for my post - is the mission what determines the destination, or the action associated with that mission? </div></div>

Yes, this is one of the arguments for heaven being the destination: Judas’ mission determines the destination.

In this 'deterministic' argument, the result is clearly heaven….and if I could state without any reservations, I would agree with this destination, but not from the flow of this argument.

This argument would probably begin with the assertions: God is evil, God is the puppeteer (as they say ‘God is the playwright and we are the actors’), Judas was a pawn used by God in God’s ultimate plan so Judas was not entirely responsible for his fate etc….........and here follows a Calvanistic/deterministic viewpoint , which is a viewpoint I do not necessarily agree with.

On the other hand, my argument would begin with these assertions: God is a good God, we do have free will but our actions does not preclude us from his mercy or his grace because His mercies go beyond human understanding.

Conclusion?
Same probable destination from both arguments, but starting from two different premise on our belief in who god is

[rudemonk]

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

Silent- do you believe that, as according to the Gospel of Luke? and John? that Satan entered Judas...

If that is the case, and he was possessed- then it would seem that the Job precedent is at work here, wherein God allows Satan to work his inequity. Yet this makes very little sense according to the overarching salvation model the majority of Christians adopted after Paul.

Judas was used to enact God's will. This seems most clear. It is a bit shocking that God allowed Judas to think otherwise and feel so terrible that he would take his own life and cease living- when he was not actually the author of his own actions.

[DC]

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Silent- do you believe that, as according to the Gospel of Luke? and John? that Satan entered Judas...</div></div>

Actually I do-in a sense- not as in 'possessed' as in one that is incapable of free will and is being overtaken by a spiritual force. If I recall correctly, the writer's original meaning of 'Satan entered Judas' does not indicate a 'demonic possession'. It signifies that it is at this point Judas' mind was made up, he made a decision not only in his mind, but his heart as well, and he finally yielded to the temptation of betrayal. in the story, apparently, Satan was glad he did because now his plan can go forth, knowing he has the full cooperation of Judas' will and heart.

<span style="font-style: italic">If I have the time I will check the references for clarity and post..</span>

[neutral]

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Silent_River</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Silent- do you believe that, as according to the Gospel of Luke? and John? that Satan entered Judas...</div></div>

Actually I do-in a sense- not as in 'possessed' as in one that is incapable of free will and is being overtaken by a spiritual force. If I recall correctly, the writer's original meaning of 'Satan entered Judas' does not indicate a 'demonic possession'. It signifies that it is at this point Judas' mind was made up, he made a decision not only in his mind, but his heart as well, and he finally yielded to the temptation of betrayal. in the story, apparently, Satan was glad he did because now his plan can go forth, knowing he has the full cooperation of Judas' will and heart.

<span style="font-style: italic">If I have the time I will check the references for clarity and post..</span> </div></div>

But surely you are all missing the point,it`s widely accepted,and promoted by christians,that &quot;god&quot; gave his only son,etc,that would indicate that ALL events leading up to and including jesus`s death was manipulated by &quot;god&quot;..so how come &quot;satan&quot; is being implicated in this crime.

Why would &quot;god&quot; work through &quot;satan&quot;,is it not possible for &quot;god&quot; to do anything slightly underhand and manipulative without using &quot;satan&quot;,...or is the implication of &quot;satan&quot; in all things bad an indication that he is simply a myth,someone made up to be the bad guy to &quot;god`s good guy persona.

[neutral]

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

And why would judas end up in &quot;hell&quot; if he was simply being used by &quot;god&quot; to carry out his wish to sacrifice his only son for the sake of mankind,...if, as we are to believe that &quot;god&quot; gave his only son through crucifixion why would the unwitting players end up being punished for their part in the whole thing.

If judas had refused to betray jesus does that mean that &quot;god&quot; would have opted for some other plan B,or would he had called the whole thing off and not give his only son to the world so that we may be &quot;saved&quot;.....?