Doctrine of Predestination

[quodlibet]

<span style="font-size: 14pt">The Doctrine of Predestination suggests that the destiny of a person was already laid out prior to that person even being born.

So two primary questions for discussion:

1. Do you believe in the doctrine of predestination?

2. Is predestination for a select few people, or all mankind?
</span>

[quodlibet]

Re: Doctrine of Predestination

crickets to rahtid...

<span style="font-size: 8pt"><span style="font-style: italic">(and here I was thinking that such a fair and balanced topic would get some kind of discussion from the believers, a little sarcasm from the unbelievers, and maybe we could learn something from the exchange...)</span></span>

[rudemonk]

Re: Doctrine of Predestination

what about schrodingers cat...

[quodlibet]

Re: Doctrine of Predestination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what about schrodingers cat... </div></div>

you got me, my brain apparently not big enough for this one - explain this please?

[sistacaf]

Re: Doctrine of Predestination


<span style="font-style: italic">Schrodingers Cat... A Rather Silly Experiment in Quantum Mechanics: Does Stuff Exist, Or Not? </span>

http://www.phobe.com/s_cat/s_cat.html

~~

<span style="font-style: italic">Schrödinger's cat is a thought experiment, often described as a paradox, devised by Austrian physicist Erwin Schrödinger in 1935. It illustrates what he saw as the problem of the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics applied to everyday objects.</span>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrodingers_cat

[franksterr]

Re: Doctrine of Predestination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quodlibet</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-size: 14pt">The Doctrine of Predestination suggests that the destiny of a person was already laid out prior to that person even being born.

So two primary questions for discussion:

1. Do you believe in the doctrine of predestination?

2. Is predestination for a select few people, or all mankind?
</span> </div></div>

I do not accept predistination as real

[Leddih]

Re: Doctrine of Predestination


To the extent that genetics can be thought of as predestination, I don't see why it cannot occur on a higher more complex plane. There are occurrences that we can predict because of observable points of reference - like a nuclear explosion even. What about those which we can't observe or are not yet able to observe?

[f0rTyLeGz]

Re: Doctrine of Predestination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quodlibet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Doctrine of Predestination suggests that the destiny of a person was already laid out prior to that person even being born. So two primary questions for discussion:

1. Do you believe in the doctrine of predestination?
2. Is predestination for a select few people, or all mankind?
</div></div>
The issue of predestination goes hand-in-hand with &quot;grace.&quot; How could there be grace, and forgiveness in a universe where God knows how everything is going to happen? In other words, if God knows everything, then &quot;free will&quot; is an illusion.

[Peasie]

Re: Doctrine of Predestination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The issue of predestination goes hand-in-hand with &quot;grace.&quot; How could there be grace, and forgiveness in a universe where God knows how everything is going to happen? In other words, if God knows everything, then &quot;free will&quot; is an illusion. </div></div>

Here's how someone illustrated this point, it will not match perfectly but it is close enough to give you the idea. Let's say I have a teenage son. Now let's say that he needs money, <span style="font-style: italic">they always do , </span>and let's say that I leave a 20 dollar bill on the kitchen table. If I know in my mind that my son will take the $20 because I know him and I know he needs it, does that mean that he no longer has a choice of whether to pick it up or not? Of course I can't really know for sure like God knows, but still the point is the same. It is like telling a child not to do something, you can be pretty sure they will do exactly what you told them not to do, but that does not mean that they no longer have a choice.

[f0rTyLeGz]

Re: Doctrine of Predestination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Peasie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The issue of predestination goes hand-in-hand with &quot;grace.&quot; How could there be grace, and forgiveness in a universe where God knows how everything is going to happen? In other words, if God knows everything, then &quot;free will&quot; is an illusion. </div></div>
Here's how someone illustrated this point, it will not match perfectly but it is close enough to give you the idea. Let's say I have a teenage son. Now let's say that he needs money, <span style="font-style: italic">they always do , </span>and let's say that I leave a 20 dollar bill on the kitchen table. If I know in my mind that my son will take the $20 because I know him and I know he needs it, does that mean that he no longer has a choice of whether to pick it up or not? Of course I can't really know for sure like God knows, but still the point is the same. It is like telling a child not to do something, you can be pretty sure they will do exactly what you told them not to do, but that does not mean that they no longer have a choice. </div></div>
But but ... You say the child has free will to whether or not to take the 20 dollars, he has a <span style="font-style: italic">choice</span>... but God already knows what he will do. In that light, does the child have free will? If God knows exactly how everything will work out because he is omniscient and knows everything, isn't that predestination?

[quodlibet]

Re: Doctrine of Predestination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Peasie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The issue of predestination goes hand-in-hand with &quot;grace.&quot; How could there be grace, and forgiveness in a universe where God knows how everything is going to happen? In other words, if God knows everything, then &quot;free will&quot; is an illusion. </div></div>

Here's how someone illustrated this point, it will not match perfectly but it is close enough to give you the idea. Let's say I have a teenage son. Now let's say that he needs money, <span style="font-style: italic">they always do , </span>and let's say that I leave a 20 dollar bill on the kitchen table. If I know in my mind that my son will take the $20 because I know him and I know he needs it, does that mean that he no longer has a choice of whether to pick it up or not? Of course I can't really know for sure like God knows, but still the point is the same. It is like telling a child not to do something, you can be pretty sure they will do exactly what you told them not to do, but that does not mean that they no longer have a choice. </div></div>

Predestination is when somewhere before this child was born - the very moment he would be in the kitchen looking at that $20 was already decided.

<span style="font-weight: bold">To use a non-biblical example</span>, check out this interaction. The female character is apparently aware that the male character is predestined to break something in her kitchen, <span style="text-decoration: underline">or is he</span>?

The quote to look out for is:
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">&quot;What's really going to bake your noodle later on is - Would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything?&quot;</span></span>

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/xk5ahbpOsWA"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/xk5ahbpOsWA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

[rudemonk]

Re: Doctrine of Predestination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Peasie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The issue of predestination goes hand-in-hand with &quot;grace.&quot; How could there be grace, and forgiveness in a universe where God knows how everything is going to happen? In other words, if God knows everything, then &quot;free will&quot; is an illusion. </div></div>

Here's how someone illustrated this point, it will not match perfectly but it is close enough to give you the idea. Let's say I have a teenage son. Now let's say that he needs money, <span style="font-style: italic">they always do , </span>and let's say that I leave a 20 dollar bill on the kitchen table. If I know in my mind that my son will take the $20 because I know him and I know he needs it, does that mean that he no longer has a choice of whether to pick it up or not? Of course I can't really know for sure like God knows, but still the point is the same. It is like telling a child not to do something, you can be pretty sure they will do exactly what you told them not to do, but that does not mean that they no longer have a choice. </div></div>

you just launched the torpedo that deflates the entire paulinic salvation model.

this is a similar issue as what is illustrated in the logical problem of evil, in that, for free will or choice to exist, God can not be all powerful, all knowing, and benevolent at the same time.

A better example would be one which introduces the threat of physical harm or death as a consequence of choice. Or burning in eternal hell fire, for example.

[rudemonk]

Re: Doctrine of Predestination

nice matrix pull!!!

[f0rTyLeGz]

Re: Doctrine of Predestination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quodlibet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Predestination is when somewhere before this child was born - the very moment he would be in the kitchen looking at that $20 was already decided.</div></div>
It's not that the event was &quot;decided&quot; was it? The event was &quot;known.&quot; If everything that will happen is all ready known ahead of time, and the all powerful all knowing One knows that he/she will not interfere, then every single thing that ever happens is &quot;predestined.&quot;

And as a mechanistic determinist, I believe that it was impossible for you not to put down the 20 dollar test in the first place.

[quodlibet]

Re: Doctrine of Predestination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quodlibet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Predestination is when somewhere before this child was born - the very moment he would be in the kitchen looking at that $20 was already decided.</div></div>
It's not that the event was &quot;decided&quot; was it? The event was &quot;known.&quot; If everything that will happen is all ready known ahead of time, and the all powerful all knowing One knows that he/she will not interfere, then every single thing that ever happens is &quot;predestined.&quot;

And as a mechanistic determinist, I believe that it was impossible for you not to put down the 20 dollar test in the first place. </div></div>

Fair enough - 'known' versus 'decided' - in either case the bottom line is that there was nothing that could be done about preventing that sequence of events from happening.

Forty, I understand what you are saying and this is not personally directed at you - but I am trying <span style="font-weight: bold">not</span> to devolve this conversation into a series of polysyllabic aphorisms which only serve to obfuscate and alienate, my intent is to make a potentially confusing discussion accessible to everyone. <span style="font-style: italic">On the other hand, I find the idea of mechanistic determinism very interesting, and it sounds like the seed of another thread </span>

<span style="font-size: 14pt">I am sincerely hoping that through this thread, believers may understand a little more about what they have accepted as fact, whichever side of the discussion they may have come down on. If the believer had not thought about it, this is an interesting conversation to have with their organizational leader - be it pastor, reverend, minister, etc.

Personally, I believe an understanding of predestination is one of the CORE principles of Christian belief system, and to not understand it, weakens the faith of that individual.</span>

So even those of you either too timid, or otherwise unwilling to participate in this discussion online, I hope when next you speak to that person you can discuss this (or do your own research).