Believer Discussion - Justification of Abuse?

[quodlibet]

<span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Wanted us to read the passages below, and have a frank discussion on if the verses should apply in daily life today.

I hope we can have an actual discussion, take it back to your ministers if you need to. Actually, I encourage you to print this off and do so.

Its nice to have inspirational &quot;praise&quot; posts, but to me that is just milk. <span style="font-weight: bold">If you are really a believer you have to tackle things like this to grow</span>.

<span style="font-style: italic">If you are not a believer, then the passages would not apply to you, therefore making applicability moot.</span>

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1 Peter 2, verses 18-20 (NIV)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God.

But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.</div></div>

*** Discussion - does the above passage justify slavery?

*** Discussion - In a modern context, should this be used as justification for accepting abuse from authorities such as the police? If not, why not?

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1 Peter 3, verses 1-4 (NIV)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives.

Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight.</div></div>

*** Discussion - By tying the passage to the previous passage (chapter 2) does the above suggest justification of abuse by a non-believing husband on a beliver spouse?

*** Discussion - Does the above passage discourage women from beauty treatments, such as making any special efforts with getting your hair done (ie processed), or the wearing of any jewelery, or expensive clothing? Does this include hats, shoes, handbags, etc?

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[quodlibet]

Re: Believer Discussion - Justification of Abuse?

*** Sorry mods, posted in the wrong forum. Please transfer to F&amp;R ***

[mariane]

Re: Believer Discussion - Justification of Abuse?

You've choosen two interesting Passages Quodlibet

[quodlibet]

Re: Believer Discussion - Justification of Abuse?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marianna</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You've choosen two interesting Passages Quodlibet
</div></div>

Thanks, I believe that its far more useful to have forums like this to hammer out the 'real-life' issues behind the questions that believers face each day.

In other words, <span style="font-weight: bold">&quot;clap han' alone cyaan dweet&quot;</span> - the praise-type posts have their place, but if you are a believer and you really take your role of a believer seriously, you ought to struggle with the harder questions, so you can assist others in their struggles.

No one said it would be easy

[jaith]

Re: Believer Discussion - Justification of Abuse?

it's been a long time since i've responded in a f&amp;r forum....

does the passage justify slavery?...i don't believe so, just recognizes that slavery exists &amp; states how a believer should live in that situation. Jesus came here as a servant....His followers are all servants &amp; slaves if we are truly His followers....that's why i get all upset in reasonings about &quot;rights&quot;.....what rights?...it's the secular govt that tslks about rights, (then tromps on them). i don't believe Jesus ever told us we have rights.

[jaith]

Re: Believer Discussion - Justification of Abuse?

re: adornment....beauty does come from within....but i don't believe this passage is meant to set up a new set of laws. the problem with christians is that they seem to like the fact that Jesus did away with the old law, but then they want to set up new rules.....so they can lord it over others....i dunno.......

when i see a flashy person, man or woman, i just see frivolity....&amp; that's their choice. but i don't hit them with my bible for it...

[trhs1979]

Re: Believer Discussion - Justification of Abuse?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quodlibet</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Wanted us to read the passages below, and have a frank discussion on if the verses should apply in daily life today.

------------------

1 Peter 2, verses 18-20 (NIV)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God.

But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.</div></div>

*** Discussion - does the above passage justify slavery? <span style="font-weight: bold">It wasn't meant to justify slavery. During the time of the early church, there were Christians who were slaves when they obeyed the gospel. </span> <span style="font-weight: bold">Peter was discussing how the new Christian should behave toward his master. Same thing can be applied to our bosses on the jobs where we work. If you do wrong and get a beating and you take the beating without making a sound/fighting back it is not a big deal..however, when you endure hardship or beatings for doing what is right, then that shows your strength and God will reward you.</span>

*** Discussion - In a modern context, should this be used as justification for accepting abuse from authorities such as the police? If not, why not? <span style="font-weight: bold">Not a justification, but Christ and a lot of the early Christians endured more than some of us can begin to imagine. The gospel call is one to suffering and we have to count the cost and be willing to suffer. We have to realize the Christian walk is not about us, but about our God and allowing Him to direct our steps. God never promised a stress free, easy life....take our burdens to the Lord and leave it there. (look at verses 23-24)</span>

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1 Peter 3, verses 1-4 (NIV)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives.

Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight.</div></div>

*** Discussion - By tying the passage to the previous passage (chapter 2) does the above suggest justification of abuse by a non-believing husband on a beliver spouse? <span style="font-weight: bold">The passage isn't justifying abuse, it is discussing how a Christian woman by her behavior can lead her husband to obey the gospel. Her husband realizes this woman is truly a woman of God and becomes a believer in God because of her lifestyle.</span>

*** Discussion - Does the above passage discourage women from beauty treatments, such as making any special efforts with getting your hair done (ie processed), or the wearing of any jewelery, or expensive clothing? Does this include hats, shoes, handbags, etc? <span style="font-weight: bold">Peter is discussing the inward spirit of a woman not the outward showing. The inward thoughts will determine how her outward appearance and behavior will be. Man places more emphasis on the outward than the inward. Pretty outside don't mean pretty inside. You can dress up a wolf to look like a sheep, but the inside is still a ravening wolf. Let us be more concerned about controlling our thoughts because that determines our behavior/lifestyle. </span>
-------------</span> </div></div>

[quodlibet]

Re: Believer Discussion - Justification of Abuse?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jaith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it's been a long time since i've responded in a f&amp;r forum....

does the passage justify slavery?...i don't believe so, just recognizes that slavery exists &amp; states how a believer should live in that situation. Jesus came here as a servant....His followers are all servants &amp; slaves if we are truly His followers....that's why i get all upset in reasonings about &quot;rights&quot;.....what rights?...it's the secular govt that tslks about rights, (then tromps on them). i don't believe Jesus ever told us we have rights. </div></div>

Thanks for responding. My initial topic refers not only to justification of slavery, but also the abuse it suggests that one should tolerate while in slavery. I however seriously dispute the assertion that Jesus or his followers were 'all servants &amp; slaves' given the various professions mentioned (carpenter, fisherman, tax collector, etc).

But what you raised in the aspect of 'rights' is an interesting idea. If <span style="font-weight: bold">WE</span> (believers) have no 'rights', then <span style="font-weight: bold">THEY</span> (non-believers) - have no rights either, including the existing right at the time to have a slave. Based on that, the doctrine would ostensibly be to teach everyone they had NO obligation to subject, rather they could just walk away.

[quodlibet]

Re: Believer Discussion - Justification of Abuse?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jaith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">re: adornment....beauty does come from within....but i don't believe this passage is meant to set up a new set of laws. the problem with christians is that they seem to like the fact that Jesus did away with the old law, but then they want to set up new rules.....so they can lord it over others....i dunno.......

when i see a flashy person, man or woman, i just see frivolity....&amp; that's their choice. but i don't hit them with my bible for it... </div></div>

Understood, but the question was for the believer, not the unbeliever. The passage seemed to be quite clear in giving instructions about inappropriate attire. If we choose to disregard such instructions as 'frivolity' - then what else can we disregard? Fornication? Idolatry? Stealing? Murder? If you recall, there are passages that suggest no gradation between one inappropriate behavior and another.

[quodlibet]

Re: Believer Discussion - Justification of Abuse?

<span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">
Xlcr, thanks for responding, and I hope you dont mind - but I re-formatted your response, and removed some of my original post for brevity and readability...

<span style="font-weight: bold"> 1 Peter 2, verses 18-20 (NIV)</span> *** Discussion - does the above passage justify slavery?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: xlcr1975</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It wasn't meant to justify slavery. During the time of the early church, there were Christians who were slaves when they obeyed the gospel. Peter was discussing how the new Christian should behave toward his master. Same thing can be applied to our bosses on the jobs where we work. If you do wrong and get a beating and you take the beating without making a sound/fighting back it is not a big deal..however, when you endure hardship or beatings for doing what is right, then that shows your strength and God will reward you.
</div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold">I'm sure this is not what you meant, so please help to clarify</span> - the statement above suggests that Christians were 'slaves' to the gospel, and therefore subjected to it, that the gospel was the new master. But the main point of the passage spoke to tolerating the ABUSE from that master - so to keep the consistiency between the gospel and the new master would also mean the gospel was abusive to belivers (?)
</span>

[quodlibet]

Re: Believer Discussion - Justification of Abuse?

<span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">
<span style="font-weight: bold"> 1 Peter 2, verses 18-20 (NIV)</span> *** Discussion - In a modern context, should this be used as justification for accepting abuse from authorities such as the police? If not, why not?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: xlcr1975</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not a justification, but Christ and a lot of the early Christians endured more than some of us can begin to imagine. The gospel call is one to suffering and we have to count the cost and be willing to suffer. We have to realize the Christian walk is not about us, but about our God and allowing Him to direct our steps. God never promised a stress free, easy life....take our burdens to the Lord and leave it there. (look at verses 23-24)
</div></div>
If the gospel call is one to suffering, then wouldn't the objection to suffering on earth be the antithesis of this? In other words, if suffering is a welcomed and required part of the gospel - then efforts to reject current suffering would be to reject the call of the gospel. I can argue that in our recent history that slave rebellions and the subsequent fight for civil rights are rejections of suffering being imposed on a group - and IF that is the case AND the gospel call is one to suffering, THEN slave rebellions and the subsequent fight for civil rights went against the gospel. This in turn WOULD be a justification for slavery, even today.
</span>

[quodlibet]

Re: Believer Discussion - Justification of Abuse?

<span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">
<span style="font-weight: bold">1 Peter 3, verses 1-4 (NIV)</span> *** Discussion - By tying the passage to the previous passage (chapter 2) does the above suggest justification of abuse by a non-believing husband on a beliver spouse?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: xlcr1975</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The passage isn't justifying abuse, it is discussing how a Christian woman by her behavior can lead her husband to obey the gospel. Her husband realizes this woman is truly a woman of God and becomes a believer in God because of her lifestyle.
</div></div>

Given that the majority of spousal homicide occurs from a husband to wife within an already abusive relationship, <span style="text-decoration: underline">are we sure this is what we should be teaching that spouse?</span> What would the bible say about the children growing up in such a household? Would the <span style="font-weight: bold">children</span> see her as a Christian example, or as a victim that wasnt' being helped by her beliefs?
</span>

[quodlibet]

Re: Believer Discussion - Justification of Abuse?

<span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">
<span style="font-weight: bold">1 Peter 3, verses 1-4 (NIV)</span> *** Discussion - Does the above passage discourage women from beauty treatments, such as making any special efforts with getting your hair done (ie processed), or the wearing of any jewelery, or expensive clothing? Does this include hats, shoes, handbags, etc?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: xlcr1975</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Peter is discussing the inward spirit of a woman not the outward showing. The inward thoughts will determine how her outward appearance and behavior will be. Man places more emphasis on the outward than the inward. Pretty outside don't mean pretty inside. You can dress up a wolf to look like a sheep, but the inside is still a ravening wolf. Let us be more concerned about controlling our thoughts because that determines our behavior/lifestyle.
</div></div>

I'm pretty sure the passage was specifically referring to the outward appearance as well. Thanks for expounding on the reasoning behind focusing on the inside, I get it, but the actual passage and question referring to the outside was still not addressed in your response </span>

[quodlibet]

Re: Believer Discussion - Justification of Abuse?

Reading over my responses, I get the impression that my direction of argument may not be clear. Part of that is intentional, to get response to &quot;the topic&quot; instead of response to &quot;me&quot;, but maybe this time my personal opinion may help.

Spoiler alert: This is one of the few times that I am probably going to state my own beliefs to guide a discussion.

My personal belief is that tend to consider the Bible as instructional first, inspirational second, and literal last. Based on my view, I like to engage discussions which challenge the literal view as first priority.

I also believe that doubt is a powerful tool to crystalize thought, challenge what is important, and find out where we stand in terms of personal faith.

I know I am not alone, and while I don't endorse the book, here is an example of someone thinking along the same line: http://www.amazon.com/Faith-Doubt-Jo.../dp/0310253519

As one writer put it &quot;<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">There lives more faith in honest doubt, believe me, than in half the creeds</span></span>&quot;

So... Intermission over, let us continue this discussion

[Emperah]

Re: Believer Discussion - Justification of Abuse?

ppl need fi realize that the bible as we have it wasn't totally inspired by the creator.
If it was we wouldn't have books missing.
We wouldn't have ppl who say those books weren't necessary so let's omit them.
Part of the bible were written to ok slavery to make the slave master feel good bout de evil he was doing and to make the slave accept it.

And we have women who are still not equal wid many more scriptures than you put in your post that are against women.

Mi always seh God mek wi wid a mind so we can discern from foolishness, think fi wiself an not be like the rest a de sheeple.

Why anyone would tek serious stock in dese scriptures against the ppl of the earth in this day wid so much information out here wid de ease of access is beyond me. It is not bible an bible alone anymore we can now look to other sources that were around at de same time as de bible and b4 de bible.

Remember MEN and MEN rewrote this bible, gave it to us with &quot;THEIR&quot; translation with an agenda. These men were not lovers of the ppl but lovers of themselves and the show it nuff when it comes to women and &quot;slaves&quot; and poor ppl in the bible.