Will or Should the Pope resign

[franksterr]

Can the Pope be "defrocked" so to speak or is that only for priests?
Is the scandal and the role he played in it, enough to force a Papal step down?
Should the abuser and those who aid or abet them be prosecuted?

Should priests, Bishops and all other forms of clergy* be allowed to marry? and would that diminish the abuses?

In light of these scandalous revelations, should the church remain a tax exempt organization?

[halfwaytree]

Re: Will or Should the Pope resign

Can the Pope be "defrocked" so to speak or is that only for priests?

<span style="font-weight: bold">I think I hear the so called experts say no. He is Pope for life.</span>

Is the scandal and the role he played in it, enough to force a Papal step down?

<span style="font-weight: bold">Yes, but he won't!</span>

Should the abuser and those who aid or abet them be prosecuted?

<span style="font-weight: bold">Yes, but the Pope is above the law apparently.</span>

Should priests, Bishops and all other forms of clergy* be allowed to marry? and would that diminish the abuses?
<span style="font-weight: bold">
<span style="font-size: 17pt">Yes &amp; Yes!!!!!</span></span>

In light of these scandalous revelations, should the church remain a tax exempt organization?

<span style="font-weight: bold">Dem never should have been tax exempt to begin with!</span>

[rudemonk]

Re: Will or Should the Pope resign

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Should priests, Bishops and all other forms of clergy* be allowed to marry? and would that diminish the abuses?
</div></div>

historically, the clergy were allowed to marry. many of the first popes and priests were married, even Peter. it wasn't until the church began losing massive assets to inheritance that the clergy went celibate.

however, I don't think that would diminish the abuse because that is different than people having and engaging in normal relationships.

we're talking about deviants here. it shouldn't be conflated.

[franksterr]

Re: Will or Should the Pope resign

Does'nt sexual repression leads to deviance or dysfunction - perversion?
Where do deviants come from.....are you saying they are born with those proclivities?

[rudemonk]

Re: Will or Should the Pope resign

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does'nt sexual repression leads to deviance or dysfunction - perversion?</div></div>

I mean if that were the case I would think we would have about a gazillion teenage boy buggerers forced into deviance because they can't whack off to their dad's hidden stash of porn or get a date.

I mean I really don't know and not that I follow the subject but I find the idea of sexual repression leading to sexual deviance perversion to be a bit absurd.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Where do deviants come from.....are you saying they are born with those proclivities? </div></div>

I think we have to focus in on what kind of deviants you want to talk about. I'm not sure but sex crime statistics and studies seem to point to several contributing factors as to the causes, but yeah some people are sadly born with the programming in their genes.

Ever watch to Catch a Predator? The majority of these people are not priests, so I don't think it is safe to assume it is some aspect of the priesthood that makes someone a sexual deviant.

Anywhere you have people that have easy access to populations of young people and trusted access to young kids you are going to have these kinds of deviants trying to exploit the situation.

[franksterr]

Re: Will or Should the Pope resign

monk

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I mean if that were the case I would think we would have about a gazillion teenage boy buggerers forced into deviance because they can't whack off to their dad's hidden stash of porn or get a date.</div></div>

As they grow older they reach the age of maturity and for most of them find natural means or ways of expressing these sexula urges.
Even as children there is is little(in comparison to adult priest)guilt when they whack off.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I mean I really don't know and not that I follow the subject but I find the idea of sexual repression leading to sexual deviance perversion to be a bit absurd.</div></div>

“Psychologists and sociologists have noted the association between extreme religious fervour and psycho-sexual problems (the former causing the latter), and the highly negative stance that many monotheistic religions take towards sexuality in general have contributed to a general malaise amongst their lay adherents, and a serious pandemic of abuse amongst professional religionists. The religious attitude towards religion is to behave like an ostrich and stick its head in the sand, hoping that theology can override biological truth, but merely making its victims unable to cope with adult sexuality. Witness the hateful and confusing statements that Christians and Muslims make about homosexuals, the anti-contraception stance that the Catholic church has in an over-crowded world ridden with disease, the harmful and simplistic rejection of abortion and the patriarchal dominance over women that has gone hand-in-hand with traditional religion on every continent.”
&quot;The Peacock vs. the Ostrich - Religious Behaviour and Sexuality&quot; by Vexen Crabtree (2008)

Some within Christian academia have come to some similar conclusions:

“Catholic piety has required the repression of healthy sexuality for service in this institution. Unfortunately, when healthy sexuality is repressed, unhealthy sexuality always rises. Repressed sexuality comes back as pornography and child abuse. Perhaps the place where Rome ought to begin is to ask why sexual abstinence or celibacy is a prerequisite for leadership. I think that is where sickness enters the tradition.”
Retired Bishop John Selby Spong (2009)

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_child_abuse.html

Another psychoanalytic theory holds that these conditions are all expressions of hostility in which sexual fantasies or unusual sexual acts become a means of obtaining revenge for a childhood trauma.

http://www.answers.com/topic/sexual-perversions-causes-and-symptoms

Bearing in mind that most if not all forms of repressions are traumatic...Not so absurd after all


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I think we have to focus in on what kind of deviants you want to talk about. I'm not sure but sex crime statistics and studies seem to point to several contributing factors as to the causes, but yeah some people are sadly born with the programming in their genes.</div></div>

Sexual deviance is what we are talking about.
We are all born with the programming, but only certain situations or circumstances will cause it to be expressed.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ever watch to Catch a Predator? The majority of these people are not priests, so I don't think it is safe to assume it is some aspect of the priesthood that makes someone a sexual deviant.</div></div>

Are you comparing the entire world to that of catholics, I think if we do the the ratio we will find that perversion among priests are far higher than the general population.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anywhere you have people that have easy access to populations of young people and trusted access to young kids you are going to have these kinds of deviants trying to exploit the situation. </div></div>

true to form.

[rudemonk]

Re: Will or Should the Pope resign

well my friend you are more well read than I in this matter, I will only add my subjective opinion here-

I mention To Catch A Predator because it would seem to me that repressed individuals are not limited to the Priesthood, so it would make sense that there would then be some other causative reason and that it is not being a priest- in other words every sexual predator is a predator but not every priest is a sexual predator and I think that does a disservice to those members of the cloth who are normal regular people with the exception they are celibate.

I agree with you that Priests should be allowed to marry, but not as a means of preventing child abuse and buggery, because plenty of married people are buggerers and pedophiles and deviants, just look at the situation with brothels in the world.

I know a lot more young girls who were abused by a male relative who was not a priest, for example, than I do people who were abused by Catholic Priests, and I grew up Catholic. Anecdotal I know.

In my opinion, which may be presently poorly formed, the issue is one of criminal deviance which needs to be punished and screened out, and the priesthood is simply a means to achieve position.

It would be interesting to see a sting operation similar to To Catch A Predator conducted throughout the churches.

[Wahalla]

Re: Will or Should the Pope resign

No

[franksterr]

Re: Will or Should the Pope resign

I think he should be remove and I remain confident that he will be removed......justice will be served by his removal

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Will or Should the Pope resign

A change in the face that represent does not necessarily result in policy changes for the better.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think he should be remove and I remain confident that he will be removed......justice will be served by his removal </div></div>

[rudemonk]

Re: Will or Should the Pope resign

but it is a step in the right direction if nothing else.

[Dyoll_73]

Re: Will or Should the Pope resign

Numerous reports of abuse were brought to then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict VI) who simply shelved them, moved some priests around, or applauded certain bishops for standing up to secular authorities. There appears to be much cover-up on the part of some higher ups at the Vatican which is coming close to a criminal entity. When you hear the reports of the abuse, you cringe, you would want to throw a flame to one of those edifices. Sadly, I don't think there's much urgency among the college of cardinals to replace him (I'm not even sure is there is such a provision, anyway), and the Pope is protected by diplomatic immunity when he travels outside Vatican City; he is, after all, a head of state.

[rudemonk]

Re: Will or Should the Pope resign

wasn't one of the reasons they selected this guy because they felt he was not very long for this earth...he may get resigned sooner rather than later lol...