Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

**f0rTyLeGz** · 09-20-2010, 06:43 PM

Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChurchDude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Evolution answers some questions that religion doesn't in the same way religion answers some questions that evolution can't. </div></div>
What would some of the questions that religion answers for Science?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChurchDude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Fundamentalists on both sides need to chill. Time to move on... </div></div>
I know there are religious fundamentalists... they are the ones that hold to literal interpretations of their holy books. But Im not sure who the fundamentalists are on the Science side of the debate? As far as I can tell, Science doesn't concern itself with proving or disproving Bible stories.

**jah_yout** · 09-20-2010, 08:28 PM

Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChurchDude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Evolution answers some questions that religion doesn't in the same way religion answers some questions that evolution can't. </div></div>
What would some of the questions that religion answers for Science?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChurchDude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Fundamentalists on both sides need to chill. Time to move on... </div></div>
I know there are religious fundamentalists... they are the ones that hold to literal interpretations of their holy books. But Im not sure who the fundamentalists are on the Science side of the debate? As far as I can tell, Science doesn't concern itself with proving or disproving Bible stories. </div></div>

leaving the bible out of it;
can you at least admit that science does NOT know how life began nor can they prove any of the theories they have regarding how it might have began...
in my view this makes any theory on the <span style="font-weight: bold">origin</span> of species (which is life)...
inconclusive...and certainly not proven a.k.a. ' fact';

it is possible to try to discover the history of life & how it works but anyone purporting to know for sure how species originated is presumptuous if they can't produce a species...

darwin's book is the <span style="font-style: italic">origin of species</span>

**jah_yout** · 09-20-2010, 08:32 PM

Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChurchDude</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Natral</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You need This catch up on your reading.
The So called Darwin's theory was not even invented or discovered by Darwin
It is nit even a theory But a scientific principle discovered to be essential to the continued existence of all forms of life.
</div></div>
Agree with you on this,the evolution of the species,including mankind,is scientifically proven,but it is not in the interest of religion to pursue this line so they will do everything to supress and ridicule it,because it makes a mockery of the line put forth by christianity,that "god" made us. </div></div>
Can't believe you said that. Between both extremes are the thiestic evolutionists (primarily scientists of all stripes) who advocate that belief in God and acceptance of evolution are not mutually exclusive. Personally, I think the continued pitting of one against the other is nonsensical. Given that the creation story is not a blow-by-blow scientific description of how man was created, who is to say that God couldn't use the mechanism of evolution to accomplish His purpose? It's not like millions of years mean anything to Him or that He was in a hurry. Evolution answers some questions that religion doesn't in the same way religion answers some questions that evolution can't. Fundamentalists on both sides need to chill. Time to move on... </div></div>

there's no way humans will just chill;
the question of how we got here will forever fascinate humanity and they will forever try to discover the answer...
i also don't believe the two are mutually exclusive but it appears most evolutionists do not believe in intelligent design...they mostly seem to believe life came about by random chance and increasingly became more complex;
to me the real key that would answer everything is knowing how it all began;
neither sides have solved this riddle yet...
although some think they have all the answers

**f0rTyLeGz** · 09-20-2010, 09:45 PM

Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">can you at least admit that science does NOT know how life began nor can they prove any of the theories they have regarding how it might have began...[//quote]
Of course. I gave you quotes by Dr. Knoll to that very point.

[quote=jah_yout]in my view this makes any theory on the <span style="font-weight: bold">origin</span> of species (which is life)...inconclusive...and certainly not proven a.k.a. ' fact';</div></div>
That is what Darwin... and evolution are saying young man, it is the origin of SPECIES, and not The Origin of Life.

That is, somehow, some way, by some natural mechanism that we don't understand yet, cellular life began here on Earth. The earliest one evolved over the millions of and billions of years into thousands of different <span style="font-style: italic">species</span>. How these early living cells evolved into different species is well understood.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
it is possible to try to discover the history of life & how it works but anyone purporting to know for sure how species originated is presumptuous if they can't produce a species...</div></div>
How species originate is known. How life began is not known. Scientists are working on the answer... trust me.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">darwin's book is the <span style="font-style: italic">origin of species</span> </div></div>
Exactly...

**jah_yout** · 09-20-2010, 10:13 PM

Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it is the origin of SPECIES, and not The Origin of Life.</div></div>

but there can never be <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">species</span></span> without <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">life</span></span>

life is the absolute pre-requisite...no one can dare say how species originated if they know not how life originated...

but it is quite plain they are mistaken in assuming a linear development of species...

evidence points to parallel development of species with species adapting & evolving within the species but not evolving into completely different species;

i find this absurd;

why would our ancestor- the fish we ate for dinner not have chosen to evolve out of the water so as to not be our dinner...
what fish in their right mind would not have walked out of the water like we did?

ok i'm off on another tangent

**f0rTyLeGz** · 09-20-2010, 10:58 PM

Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but there can never be <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">species</span></span> without <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">life</span></span>
</div></div>
No one has said that there can be species without life.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
life is the absolute pre-requisite...no one can dare say how species originated if they know not how life originated...</div></div>
Well... that is exactly what has happened. There is a whole lot of science backing up the field.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
but it is quite plain they are mistaken in assuming a linear development of species...
evidence points to parallel development of species with species adapting & evolving within the species but not evolving into completely different species;</div></div>
You ought to publish your evidence!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i find this absurd;
why would our ancestor- the fish we ate for dinner not have chosen to evolve out of the water so as to not be our dinner...
what fish in their right mind would not have walked out of the water like we did?
</div></div>
Agreed. That IS absurd.

**Diplomat** · 09-21-2010, 12:01 AM

Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChurchDude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Evolution answers some questions that religion doesn't in the same way religion answers some questions that evolution can't. </div></div>
What would some of the questions that religion answers for Science?</div></div>
Be careful now. I did not say religion has answers for science. My argument is that religion answers some questions that evolution can't and those include questions of purpose and nature; e.g. Why are we here? Wat is the meaning of human existence? Why are we, generally speaking, altruistic? These are just some of the questions that in my opinion, lie outside the reach of the scientific method.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChurchDude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Fundamentalists on both sides need to chill. Time to move on... </div></div>
I know there are religious fundamentalists... they are the ones that hold to literal interpretations of their holy books. But Im not sure who the fundamentalists are on the Science side of the debate? As far as I can tell, Science doesn't concern itself with proving or disproving Bible stories. </div></div>
Evolution fundamentalists are the ones who take the anything but God approach and so make acceptance of God and evolution mutually exclusive. It was Albert Einstein who said, "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." It is not about proving or disproving Bible stories for as the saying goes, "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't, no proof is enough." Stalemate.

**f0rTyLeGz** · 09-21-2010, 04:45 AM

Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChurchDude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Evolution fundamentalists are the ones who take the anything but God approach and so make acceptance of God and evolution mutually exclusive. </div></div>
I have never read any article written by a scientist about a topic on evolution that mentioned any god. Science never mentions God or gods. Some scientists believe in them.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChurchDude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It was Albert Einstein who said, "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." It is not about proving or disproving Bible stories for as the saying goes, "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't, no proof is enough." Stalemate. </div></div>
I know the quote well, it is from 1939, when denying the existence of God was pretty much unheard of. Perhaps you might enjoy the whole enchilada? http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einsci.htm

And did you notice that Stephen Hawking recently said that he didnt think that a god was necessary for Creation? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/philip..._b_707496.html

**Diplomat** · 09-21-2010, 10:19 AM

Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChurchDude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Evolution fundamentalists are the ones who take the anything but God approach and so make acceptance of God and evolution mutually exclusive. </div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold">I have never read any article written by a scientist about a topic on evolution that mentioned any god.</span> Science never mentions God or gods. Some scientists believe in them.</div></div>
Re the bolded portion, really? As an example of the argument, try reading some of Dr. Francis Collins' work, especially his book, The Language of God. Even Times Magazine did a piece on him in the article Reconciling God and Science back in 2006. Quite a bit over several websites as well, including BioLogos which was also founded by Collins and which now features the writings of several proponents of theistic evolution from the scientific community.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChurchDude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It was Albert Einstein who said, "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." It is not about proving or disproving Bible stories for as the saying goes, "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't, no proof is enough." Stalemate. </div></div>
I know the quote well, it is from 1939, when denying the existence of God was pretty much unheard of. Perhaps you might enjoy the whole enchilada? http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einsci.htm

And did you notice that Stephen Hawking recently said that he didnt think that a god was necessary for Creation? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/philip..._b_707496.html </div></div>
I am familiar with the Einstein piece but it doesn't change what I consider to be a profound truth. As for Hawking, he is in my view, one of those "anything but God" advocates. As one critic of his book the Grand Design noted, "It’s extremely misleading to promulgate highly speculative theories as the accepted word of the scientific community." Infinite universes? Where is the proof?.

**jah_yout** · 09-21-2010, 11:04 AM

Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[I have never read any article written by a scientist about a topic on evolution that mentioned any god. Science never mentions God or gods. Some scientists believe in them.

</div></div>

well richard dawkins (author of "the god delusion&quot

interview in the movie is quite revealing;

he absolutely dismisses the idea of intelligent design but then says it's possible aliens could have created earth life...a.k.a. intelligent design

but then he says those aliens would have had to come about through darwinian means

and these guys are authorities???

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8Csop4ROeNg&feature=fvst"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8Csop4ROeNg&feature=fvst" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

**jah_yout** · 09-21-2010, 11:09 AM

Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but there can never be <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">species</span></span> without <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">life</span></span>
</div></div>
No one has said that there can be species without life.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
life is the absolute pre-requisite...no one can dare say how species originated if they know not how life originated...</div></div>
Well... that is exactly what has happened. There is a whole lot of science backing up the field.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
but it is quite plain they are mistaken in assuming a linear development of species...
evidence points to parallel development of species with species adapting & evolving within the species but not evolving into completely different species;</div></div>
You ought to publish your evidence!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i find this absurd;
why would our ancestor- the fish we ate for dinner not have chosen to evolve out of the water so as to not be our dinner...
what fish in their right mind would not have walked out of the water like we did?
</div></div>
Agreed. That IS absurd. </div></div>

so the fish that stayed in the water were just stupid?
so evolution was voluntary?
some chose to evolve & some didn't?
why did some species go extinct when all they had to do was evolve?
why did dinosaurs not simply evolve warm blood instead of dying out due to cold?

**jah_yout** · 09-21-2010, 11:14 AM

Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but there can never be <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">species</span></span> without <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">life</span></span>
</div></div>
No one has said that there can be species without life.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
life is the absolute pre-requisite...no one can dare say how species originated if they know not how life originated...</div></div>
Well... that is exactly what has happened. There is a whole lot of science backing up the field.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
but it is quite plain they are mistaken in assuming a linear development of species...
evidence points to parallel development of species with species adapting & evolving within the species but not evolving into completely different species;</div></div>
You ought to publish your evidence!

</div></div>

hmmm

there's a thought;
even though i will be persecuted and ridiculed by the evolution lobby...it might be worth a try

**Diplomat** · 09-21-2010, 12:19 PM

Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[I have never read any article written by a scientist about a topic on evolution that mentioned any god. Science never mentions God or gods. Some scientists believe in them. </div></div>
well richard dawkins (author of "the god delusion&quot

interview in the movie is quite revealing;

he absolutely dismisses the idea of intelligent design but then says it's possible aliens could have created earth life...a.k.a. intelligent design

but then he says those aliens would have had to come about through darwinian means

and these guys are authorities???</div></div>
I thought that part of the movie was pretty funny. It's part and parcel of the "anything but God" argument.

**f0rTyLeGz** · 09-21-2010, 10:08 PM

Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

My two cents about this tape is that Ben Stein is a famous right wing blowhard. He is an economist who famously said... "On March 18, 2007, in a column for CBS News online, Stein famously proclaimed in the beginning of the subprime mortgage crisis that the foreclosure problem would "blow over and the people who buy now, in due time, will be glad they did," the economy was "still very strong," and the "smart money" was "now trying to buy — not sell — as much distressed merchandise" in mortgages as possible." Wikipedia

"On August 18, 2007, on Fox News Channel's Cavuto on Business, Stein appeared with other financial experts dismissing worries of a coming credit crunch." (Wikipedia)

But most of all he is in my book a propagandist. Anyone who compares atheism, and science to Nazis is a total freak. Most atheists don't care a whit if people believe in God... just like most believers don't care about non-believers.

And after watching the tape above, I felt that Ben Stein was very rude to Richard Dawkins. Mr Dawkins is a scientist, an evolutionary biologist, and Ben Stein, economist, actor, grilling of Dawkins as to whether or not he believed in the god of Islam, or the gods of the Hindu was out of order. Mr Dawkins is well equipped to argue his atheism, but that isn't what Stein puts in his movie. In other words the movie clip above is an ad hominum attack on Dawkins and then a ruthless spin that equates atheism with Nazis and a loss of freedom.

**f0rTyLeGz** · 09-22-2010, 12:18 AM

Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

Dr. Francis Collins is an interesting guy. I read your link and some others. www.biologos.org wouldn't load

"Collins stated that God is the explanation of those features of the universe that science finds difficult to explain (such as the values of certain physical constants favoring life), and that God himself does not need an explanation since he is beyond the universe."

Personally, saying that "God is...(in this case 'beyond the universe.)" is story telling. Not much different than "Once upon a time..." He is explaining the ground rules for his personal god. That's fine with me for him to believe this. But, to me of course, "beyond the universe" just makes zero sense. It is like saying my god is all powerful, or knows everything, and is everywhere. These superlatives can't be argued with. They are beliefs. No one can prove that there are gods beyond the universe.

String theory while speculative is testable. There are scientists working on it right now using the largest machine ever built by man. The Large Hadron Collider

Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

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