The dilemma of the first sin???

[johnnycakes]

Re: The dilemma of the first sin???

"So Adam and Eve covered their nakedness because they got educated more than they were entitled to?"



No silly, Adam and Eve covered their nakedness because they were white people (according to all the pictures of them that I've seen) , were getting horrible sunburns and Coppertone would not be invented for quite a while yet.

[franksterr]

Re: The dilemma of the first sin???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quodlibet</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
They gaining of the knowledge was threatening, the sin or evil would then have been disobedience.

<span style="font-weight: bold">The God of the bible demands blind obedience</span>, hence the reason their eyes were open after the first act of human disobedience. </div></div>

Why do you state this, do you have anything to back this up besides the interpretation of some preacher?
I know of the verse that says &quot;To obey is better than the sacrifice of rams&quot;, etc - but I am also aware of the verse that says &quot;Come let us reason together saith the Lord&quot;... </div></div>

<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">The CARROT or The STICK </span>- socalled free will or choice</span>
The reasoning refered to here is not the reasoning of equals but of the lash, one in which you listen while seeking mercy in contrition as judgement is being passed, if you refuse to obey and abide by his rules.. in other words do as God say or perish.

Isaiah 1:16-20
Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. <span style="font-weight: bold">Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. </span><span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword:</span></span> for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

[quodlibet]

Re: The dilemma of the first sin???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quodlibet</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
They gaining of the knowledge was threatening, the sin or evil would then have been disobedience.

<span style="font-weight: bold">The God of the bible demands blind obedience</span>, hence the reason their eyes were open after the first act of human disobedience. </div></div>

Why do you state this, do you have anything to back this up besides the interpretation of some preacher?
I know of the verse that says &quot;To obey is better than the sacrifice of rams&quot;, etc - but I am also aware of the verse that says &quot;Come let us reason together saith the Lord&quot;... </div></div>

<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">The CARROT or The STICK </span>- socalled free will or choice</span>
The reasoning refered to here is not the reasoning of equals but of the lash, one in which you listen while seeking mercy in contrition as judgement is being passed, if you refuse to obey and abide by his rules.. in other words do as God say or perish.

Isaiah 1:16-20
Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. <span style="font-weight: bold">Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. </span><span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword:</span></span> for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. </div></div>

Based on this, ignorance would then be a virtue

[freedom-man]

Re: The dilemma of the first sin???

what is sinfull about adam and eve gaining the knowledge to know right from wrong?

[franksterr]

Re: The dilemma of the first sin???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quodlibet</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quodlibet</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
They gaining of the knowledge was threatening, the sin or evil would then have been disobedience.

<span style="font-weight: bold">The God of the bible demands blind obedience</span>, hence the reason their eyes were open after the first act of human disobedience. </div></div>

Why do you state this, do you have anything to back this up besides the interpretation of some preacher?
I know of the verse that says &quot;To obey is better than the sacrifice of rams&quot;, etc - but I am also aware of the verse that says &quot;Come let us reason together saith the Lord&quot;... </div></div>

<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">The CARROT or The STICK </span>- socalled free will or choice</span>
The reasoning refered to here is not the reasoning of equals but of the lash, one in which you listen while seeking mercy in contrition as judgement is being passed, if you refuse to obey and abide by his rules.. in other words do as God say or perish.

Isaiah 1:16-20
Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. <span style="font-weight: bold">Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. </span><span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword:</span></span> for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. </div></div>

Based on this, ignorance would then be a virtue </div></div>

Ignorance is very rarely a virtue but innocence often is.

[franksterr]

Re: The dilemma of the first sin???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChineseJamaican</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what is sinfull about adam and eve gaining the knowledge to know right from wrong? </div></div>

The possible sin is that in order for them to gain that knowledge they had to disobey God.....Disobeying God is usually considered a sin.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: The dilemma of the first sin???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quodlibet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Was it the gaining of the knowledge that was wrong, or the disobedience?

If the act of disobedience was wrong, does it matter if you know the reason behind the instruction to obey in the first place? </div></div>

They gaining of the knowledge was threatening, the sin or evil would then have been disobedience.

The God of the bible demands blind obedience, hence the reason their eyes were open after the first act of human disobedience. </div></div>

It is (since the law still is in effect today).
It is not so much the need to blindly obwy god. Although that would have achieved the goal.
It is rather following the principles that is necessary to accomplish positive goals.
As I stated before that law is in existence and I will add that it is the basis of the teachings of organizations such as &quot;The Science of Mind&quot; and Religious Science.
It simply state that when we pray or aspire, we should not sustain any thought of negative and positives. We should rather be single minded in our belief in the expressions in life that make it natural for the goal to be achieved.

In other words,do not eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil.

Only eat of the fruits of life.

Incidentally these principles are incorporated in the &quot;Lords prayer&quot;.
That too is misused.
It was not meant to be repeated word for word ant more than the ten commandments.
It's principles should rather be incorporated in every prayer.
That is the difference between consistently answered prayers and excuses like God wish otherwise for you.
Such utter nonse.

[johnnycakes]

Re: The dilemma of the first sin???

It's all allegory. It's not literal.
Genesis is a way to frame certain high spiritual thought with images that simple people can grasp.

If we say that God is as strong as 500000 oxen, it doesn't mean He turns into 500000 oxen.

it's just a way to explain complex issues in a way that will be clear to those not usually versed in the deep intellectual and spiritual knowledge of the writers.

To confuse and conflate the allegory with the very complex message it was used to convey, is where we start to get into trouble.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: The dilemma of the first sin???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's all allegory. It's not literal.
Genesis is a way to frame certain high spiritual thought with images that simple people can grasp.

If we say that God is as strong as 500000 oxen, it doesn't mean He turns into 500000 oxen.

it's just a way to explain complex issues in a way that will be clear to those not usually versed in the deep intellectual and spiritual knowledge of the writers.

To confuse and conflate the allegory with the very complex message it was used to convey, is where we start to get into trouble. </div></div>
Saying It's an allegory is convenient when you if you can't prove That it work if followed literally.

That dosen't hold up when it is proven by others, on a regular basis, to achieve it's objective When taken literally and practiced as suggested.

as is usual speculation is used to fill in where misunderstanding conquerors.

Allegory can explain acts, but not direct orders, as in &quot;Thow shalt not eat of [b]the tree of <span style="font-style: italic"> knowledge of good and evil </span>.Only eat of <span style="font-style: italic"> the tree of life </span>…&quot;

Although it could be loosely described is a parable, it certainly is not an allegory.

[johnnycakes]

Re: The dilemma of the first sin???

'Thow shalt not eat of [b]the tree of knowledge of good and evil .Only eat of the tree of life …&quot;

A man wrote these words, perhaps a divinely inspired man but a man , a mortal and certainly not the spiritual entity that we call God.

It is highly unlikely that a supreme, not just a superior but a supremely intelligent, civilized and amiable God or Being would create man and then not let him run as he would. If man were created as a reasoning creature, the only reasoning creature does it not make more sense that a creator would give his creation the potential to achieve all the good in His creation than to put limits on that creation that have nothing to do with good and evil ? Wouldn't that seem to be the purpose: to plant the seed that sprouts and grows and develops into the flower ?

Original sin makes no sense unless you can envision rather petty thinking on the part of a supreme being.

Why put all that guilt on a creation as joyous and novel as humanity?

Sorry, God did not write the Bible. Men wrote the Bible. Men who lived thousands of years ago and would have no clue.
Men are infinitely fallible, men far more primitive than men today, even more so and their societal customs as different from us as would be Wahabism.

Sure &quot;do unto others&quot; &quot; Take care of the poor FIRST&quot; are exactly what is needed, ALL that is needed to be read in that book.

the Bible should not be considered for all the nice poetry and psalms but for how God is supposed to have told us to act.

That whole reading can be done in those two phrases.

You don't need to know how to sacrifice oxen or your firstborn or who begat whom , or how The Israelites slew Phillip Stein....none of that .....

Jesus said to take care of the poor and to do it NOW, not later, not after you build a church.
And go out and treat others as you'd like to be treated.

That shouldn't be so hard to remember that you need that great big Bible to remind you of those few pithy phrases, that you need a Pope to tell you how to do God and Christ's work.

[franksterr]

Re: The dilemma of the first sin???

Dr.Dudd
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

It is (since the law still is in effect today).
It is not so much the need to blindly obwy god. Although that would have achieved the goal.
It is rather following the principles that is necessary to accomplish positive goals.
As I stated before that law is in existence and I will add that it is the basis of the teachings of organizations such as &quot;The Science of Mind&quot; and Religious Science.
It simply state that when we pray or aspire, we should not sustain any thought of negative and positives. We should rather be single minded in our belief in the expressions in life that make it natural for the goal to be achieved.</div></div>

I do not believe that that is the Law being expressed here.
The generative law of opposites or complimentary, in short duality - I &amp; IT or I &amp; Thou. This is the proverbial FALL, we know see ourselves as separate from Nature/God. This separation is the basis of all human Reasoning, the binary 1 &amp; 0.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In other words,do not eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil.

Only eat of the fruits of life.</div></div>

But God prevented us from so doing, eating of the tree of life?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Incidentally these principles are incorporated in the &quot;Lords prayer&quot;.
That too is misused.
It was not meant to be repeated word for word ant more than the ten commandments.
It's principles should rather be incorporated in every prayer.
That is the difference between consistently answered prayers and excuses like God wish otherwise for you.
Such utter nonse.
</div></div>

SO ABOVE SO BELOW.
As in heaven so on earth, not my will but thine.....The prayer seeks the end of our separation
The law of reciprocation - forgive so that you maybe forgiven.

To seek and practice the will of God is to have your prayers answered.