For Monk: How Does Immortality Fit With Religion

[johnnycakes]

Monk, as one of the few people for whom I have considerable intellectual respect, I would like you to respond to this question and perhaps AFTER reading the linked article below.

With the possibility of a form of immortality becoming a reality within the next 50 years or so, how does that concept fit in with our current religious beliefs?

The following link was provided in the General Discussions forum but it does warrant some thought in the Philosophy and Religion forum.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2048138,00.html

[jah_yout]

Re: For Monk: How Does Immortality Fit With Religion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Monk, as one of the few people for whom I have considerable intellectual respect</div></div>

and everyone else is chopped liver?

[johnnycakes]

Re: For Monk: How Does Immortality Fit With Religion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Monk, as one of the few people for whom I have considerable intellectual respect</div></div>

and everyone else is chopped liver?

</div></div>


jah-yout,

From what I have read in these fora, Monk is the brightest person here and the one to talk to about the Singularity which is beyond the intellectual capacity of most people to either fully understand in its implications or beyond the ability or willingness of a great many to accept even if they could understand the concept and its implications.

There are many in these fora with whom attempting to have a discussion on exponential growth of machine knowledge WOULD be akin to having that discussion with a bowl of chopped liver .

The formula for chopped liver however can be followed by anyone:

Jewish Style Chopped Liver

1 lb fresh chicken livers
4 hard boiled eggs
2 tbspns grated onion
rendered chicken fat (chop chicken fat pieces until fine and fry with (extra) chopped onions. Pour off the rendered fat for use in the chopped liver. Continue frying the fat connective tissue and the onions until everything is nicely brown-do not burn. salt and eat these cracklings with with bread.)

salt and pepper

This is a traditional Jewish high cholesterol, non-healthy appetizer that goes best on Ritz Crackers and which has contributed to many heart attacks..

Simmer the livers/cook on low until cooked through, set aside and let cool.
Grate finely or mash the hard boiled eggs with a fork until fine.
Mix the livers and eggs and onions in a bowl until even.
Since the chicken fat is pure cholesterol, you can cut it by doubling it by adding vegetable oil.
Mix in the fat/oil mixture slowly until the chopped liver gets to a smooth spreadable texture using as little as necessary unless you just don't mind heart attacks.

Add salt and pepper to taste.

Spread on 50 to 100 Ritz Crackers for a light snack.

See you in the Cardiac Intensive Care Unit.

OR you could wait for the artery cleaning nanobots (coming with the Singularity in about 35 years) and drink chicken fat straight.

[rudemonk]

Re: For Monk: How Does Immortality Fit With Religion

well that was a very interesting piece. there can be no doubt that scientific advances are going to bring about seriously radical changes.

already several heretofore unpassable boundaries have been broken or pushed waaaaaaaay back and advances in biology, robotics, cosmology, physics, genetics, etc are simply staggering.

there is also no doubt whatsoever that scientific advances often force major rethinking of various belief structures.

nobody believes that Thor's hammer bouncing off a Frost Giant's head is the cause of thunder and lightning any more.

we look at that as a silly notion now, but once that was a sacred cow.

many many beliefs that were once sacred are often forced to drop by scientific advancement.

in the case of human immortality we almost have a bit of a reversal, not that paul or any of the other eschatists had an inkling this would be one, or the, pathway for immortality.

we already have cyborgs in the sense that many humans can not live apart from the machines that have replaced certain biological organs and it is hard to find fault with a lot of what Kurzweil is talking about.

I remember having to put down my cigar and glass of rum when I read the human genome had been mapped. The future is very scary. How far off can we be from programming the genetic heritage of our progeny, and where do we draw the ethical lines and who will enforce them...

Are you a fan, by any chance, of the reimagined Battlestar Galactica or Caprica series? They must be obvious fans of Kurzweil.

Perhaps what we consider as God, is actually one of these supercomputers.

[rudemonk]

Re: For Monk: How Does Immortality Fit With Religion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

With the possibility of a form of immortality becoming a reality within the next 50 years or so, how does that concept fit in with our current religious beliefs?</div></div>

ps, the first implication I think one can draw is that God is going to be rendered moot. who will care and what service can he provide. if people wish it, they can enter into a heaven of their own. perhaps heaven will be just one more economic indicator or status symbol, like a mercedes benz.

[rudemonk]

Re: For Monk: How Does Immortality Fit With Religion

kurzweil also has some interesting talks on TED:

http://www.ted.com/talks/ray_kurzweil_on_how_technology_will_transform_us.html

[jah_yout]

Re: For Monk: How Does Immortality Fit With Religion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Perhaps what we consider as God, is actually one of these supercomputers</div></div>

a supercomputer created by who?

i have never heard of a computer that assembled itself...i have only heard of computers designed by humans...
until a computer assembles itself or until i discover a computer that is self contained with its own intelligence &amp; independent actions (not programs),
i will have to balk on the idea of a computer being god...

in any case none of these things can come into being spontaneously...
we are using our maximum intelligence to figure out how to prolong life (which has not been prolonged by much over the last few hundred years), but let's start with living to 200 years before we start talking about immortality

[jah_yout]

Re: For Monk: How Does Immortality Fit With Religion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

With the possibility of a form of immortality becoming a reality within the next 50 years or so, how does that concept fit in with our current religious beliefs?</div></div>

ps, the first implication I think one can draw is that God is going to be rendered moot. who will care and what service can he provide. if people wish it, they can enter into a heaven of their own. perhaps heaven will be just one more economic indicator or status symbol, like a mercedes benz. </div></div>

first you would have to define 'god' and 'heaven' before this can be disected

[jah_yout]

Re: For Monk: How Does Immortality Fit With Religion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OR you could wait for the artery cleaning nanobots (coming with the Singularity in about 35 years) and drink chicken fat straight.</div></div>

i'm almost certain that computers will not become independent beings in 35 years but will still need the guidance of their human creators...

so you are saying the created can become more powerful than &amp; independent of that which created them?

if inanimate nanobots are so complex we need another 35 years, imagine how long it would take the infinitely more complex living organic cell

[rudemonk]

Re: For Monk: How Does Immortality Fit With Religion

there are advanced computer systems right now that do not require human involvement.

evolution predicts that &quot;created&quot; will become more complicated- not necessarily, but usually- and that is pretty much what we see all the time. Life evolved beyond single cell organisms, in essence single cell organisms 'created' more complicated forms of life.

[rudemonk]

Re: For Monk: How Does Immortality Fit With Religion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Perhaps what we consider as God, is actually one of these supercomputers</div></div>

a supercomputer created by who?
</div></div>

that's the question you need to answer. and why your position that the universe is created is susceptible to a fatal flaw, logically, it's redundant and basically absurd.

what created the creator.

[rudemonk]

Re: For Monk: How Does Immortality Fit With Religion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
in any case none of these things can come into being spontaneously...
we are using our maximum intelligence to figure out how to prolong life (which has not been prolonged by much over the last few hundred years), but let's start with living to 200 years before we start talking about immortality </div></div>

sometimes you say some pretty incredible shyte.

i think extending the human lifespan is pretty awesome, who cares it it was a trend that started 600 years ago. you well know that in some parts of this world, like on american indian reservations, the average life expectancy is like 45/50 years old.

Japan I think still reigns supreme, with their adults living an average of 4 more years than Americans.

You sound as if you wouldn't accept the possibility until you saw one, of a 2TB hard drive because you only have a Mac IIE on your desktop.

[johnnycakes]

Re: For Monk: How Does Immortality Fit With Religion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Perhaps what we consider as God, is actually one of these supercomputers</div></div>

a supercomputer created by who?

i have never heard of a computer that assembled itself...i have only heard of computers designed by humans...
until a computer assembles itself or until i discover a computer that is self contained with its own intelligence &amp; independent actions (not programs),
i will have to balk on the idea of a computer being god...
In any case none of these things can come into being spontaneously...
we are using our maximum intelligence to figure out how to prolong life (which has not been prolonged by much over the last few hundred years), but let's start with living to 200 years before we start talking about immortality </div></div>

jah_yout,

If you haven't read Kurzweil on the future exponential technological advances you will be unable to understand all this.

No you have not seen a computer that can assemble itself. That is some 35 years off .
In the next few years they will have developed a computer with the intelligence of an insect. A few years after that they'll be able to replicate the brain power of a mouse and by the late 2020's that of a human being.
Artificial intelligence and machines will reach a level of intelligence that will enable them to improve on themselves and yes, build themselves and build themselves better than humans can because the machine intelligence will be smarter than all of humanity by 2045.

As for prolonging life, nanotechnology will make possible the elimination of cancer and a host of other illnesses that we now have no cure for. Nanobots will clean arteries of plaque and fix things without invasive surgeries. They are now experimenting with an enzyme that will enable cells to replicate far beyond what the human body is programmed to do and according to Kurzweil, enable people to live to be 1000 years old.

All of this and more is coming down the road within 35 years. Kurzweil may be off by a few years but consider that he has a phenomenal percentage of correct predictions that have already happened.

What you and many others do not see is that technological progress does not occur in a straight even line of progression but when it reaches a certain point grows in an exponential way which is many times faster. That point on the accelerating curve is about twenty years from now.

Example: In the first twenty years of this century we will gain more knowledge than we accumulated in all of the 20th and then it gets even faster..

By the end of the 21st century artificial intelligence will be a billion times smarter than a human.

I'd call that kind of knowledge God like.

Invite your guy down for a game of chess in 2199.

if he still exists at that point.





i

[johnnycakes]

Re: For Monk: How Does Immortality Fit With Religion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">kurzweil also has some interesting talks on TED:

http://www.ted.com/talks/ray_kurzweil_on_how_technology_will_transform_us.html

</div></div>

Thanks Monk,

I'll be checking out TED on a regular basis. I'm still wading through &quot;The Singularity Is Near&quot; and all the dry technical stuff is making it a tough slog.

I need some nanobot professors and a mind link to read everything on this that I'd like to.

[jah_yout]

Re: For Monk: How Does Immortality Fit With Religion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
in any case none of these things can come into being spontaneously...
we are using our maximum intelligence to figure out how to prolong life (which has not been prolonged by much over the last few hundred years), but let's start with living to 200 years before we start talking about immortality </div></div>

sometimes you say some pretty incredible shyte.

i think extending the human lifespan is pretty awesome, who cares it it was a trend that started 600 years ago. you well know that in some parts of this world, like on american indian reservations, the average life expectancy is like 45/50 years old.

Japan I think still reigns supreme, with their adults living an average of 4 more years than Americans.

You sound as if you wouldn't accept the possibility until you saw one, of a 2TB hard drive because you only have a Mac IIE on your desktop. </div></div>


and there were people living to 90 years old 3000 years ago...
and people in the united states in this modern era not making it past 50 yrs old...

even young athletes dropping dead of natural cuses at 17, 18, etc.

look deeper you will see we really have not added that much to overall human life span in a millenia..

we have added technology but also added dangerous materials to the environment...they almost cancel each other out in many ways at many times...
cancer is rampant, etc.-------we should have some 200 year-olds right now with all this technology, eh?
but we don't