for Jah Yout, new artificial heart design...

[rudemonk]

Re: for Jah Yout, new artificial heart design...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.npr.org/2011/06/18/137265...genome-testing

Twins' Cure A First Victory For Genome Testing

June 18, 2011

For years, scientists have predicted that knowing the whole human genetic code would pay off huge dividends in diagnosing and treating disease. The promise has largely remained just that. Now, a pair of 14-year-old twins has become among the first to benefit from a whole-genome test. NPR health and science correspondent Richard Knox talks to host Scott Simon about the breakthrough that essentially cured the twins' disease within days. </div></div>


it's definitely going to be a very brave very new world very soon.

i've often wondered how many of our religions are going to be able to withstand these kinds of advances, especially once we are able to get in there and customize. i'm sure at first it will all be for things like this, fixing major problems and that is the ethical and morally just thing to do- even if God doesn't - but what happens when people start wanting certain hair colors, facial features, I mean this can get right down to the length of the pinky toe much less physical abilities.

There was a Star Trek episode way back in the day with just such a topic.

[jah_yout]

Re: for Jah Yout, new artificial heart design...



...but can a machine ever have a soul or a spirit---an aura
_________________________



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what do you mean by aura?</div></div>


that intangible quality which we all have...what makes each person unique despite billions on earth..a kind out of outward glow..a look in the eye...a spirit so to speak;

[SmoothOperator]

Re: for Jah Yout, new artificial heart design...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

...but can a machine ever have a soul or a spirit---an aura
_________________________



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what do you mean by aura?</div></div>


that intangible quality which we all have...what makes each person unique despite billions on earth..a kind out of outward glow..a look in the eye...a spirit so to speak;
</div></div>

Or you mean like man's best friend...the dog. I have had a few in my time and each had a unique personality- some were friendly and outgoing and loved being petted even by strangers, some would not let you touch them at all, at least not without a fight. I had one that would let you pet him but only with your feet...if you tried to pat him on the head with your hand he would run off. And some of these were even of the same breed.

My point...personality is not unique to the human race. As to the soul or spirit that is harder to define. But I suspect if you get sufficient machine complexity, bigger more complex 'brains' you will get more personality like features developing which is what we see in the animal kingdom.

[johnnycakes]

Re: for Jah Yout, new artificial heart design...

monk,

I recently read a aci-fi novel in which people were able to enter a tank and transform their bodies into just about whatever they wanted in about four days.
The main character was a (white) woman detective who was short and plump to begin with and had her body altered to being a slender six feet tall and her skin black .

It doesn't seem all that far-fetched after reading &quot;The Singularity Is Near&quot;.

As you said, the religious will have real problems dealing with the &quot;miraculous&quot; things we, as advanced intelligences, will be able to do and which were presumed possible only by an all powerful God.

ALTHOUGH,

If God created us in his image why not ultimately with the same capabilities?

[rudemonk]

Re: for Jah Yout, new artificial heart design...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">monk,

I recently read a aci-fi novel in which people were able to enter a tank and transform their bodies into just about whatever they wanted in about four days.
The main character was a (white) woman detective who was short and plump to begin with and had her body altered to being a slender six feet tall and her skin black .

It doesn't seem all that far-fetched after reading &quot;The Singularity Is Near&quot;.

As you said, the religious will have real problems dealing with the &quot;miraculous&quot; things we, as advanced intelligences, will be able to do and which were presumed possible only by an all powerful God.

ALTHOUGH,

If God created us in his image why not ultimately with the same capabilities? </div></div>

well, the literal fundamentalist, if they knew the story, would be forced to say he did, and that is why we got ousted from the garden. supposedly.

<span style="font-style: italic">Genesis 3

The Fall

1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, “Where are you?”

10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”

11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”

12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”

13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

16 To the woman he said,

“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”

17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

20 Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 <span style="font-weight: bold">And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” </span>23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.</span>

[jah_yout]

Re: for Jah Yout, new artificial heart design...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SmoothOperator</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

...but can a machine ever have a soul or a spirit---an aura
_________________________



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what do you mean by aura?</div></div>


that intangible quality which we all have...what makes each person unique despite billions on earth..a kind out of outward glow..a look in the eye...a spirit so to speak;
</div></div>

Or you mean like man's best friend...the dog. I have had a few in my time and each had a unique personality- some were friendly and outgoing and loved being petted even by strangers, some would not let you touch them at all, at least not without a fight. I had one that would let you pet him but only with your feet...if you tried to pat him on the head with your hand he would run off. And some of these were even of the same breed.

My point...<span style="font-weight: bold">personality is not unique to the human race</span>. As to the soul or spirit that is harder to define. But I suspect if you get sufficient machine complexity, bigger more complex 'brains' you will get more personality like features developing which is what we see in the animal kingdom. </div></div>

no personality is not unique to the human race...
my point is that can spirit or soul be fully understood let alone re-created...what about imagination....things like these are far beyond our abilities to master at this time...
i'm afraid man still trails nature by light years in terms of being a master

[rudemonk]

Re: for Jah Yout, new artificial heart design...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SmoothOperator</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

...but can a machine ever have a soul or a spirit---an aura
_________________________



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what do you mean by aura?</div></div>


that intangible quality which we all have...what makes each person unique despite billions on earth..a kind out of outward glow..a look in the eye...a spirit so to speak;
</div></div>

Or you mean like man's best friend...the dog. I have had a few in my time and each had a unique personality- some were friendly and outgoing and loved being petted even by strangers, some would not let you touch them at all, at least not without a fight. I had one that would let you pet him but only with your feet...if you tried to pat him on the head with your hand he would run off. And some of these were even of the same breed.

My point...<span style="font-weight: bold">personality is not unique to the human race</span>. As to the soul or spirit that is harder to define. But I suspect if you get sufficient machine complexity, bigger more complex 'brains' you will get more personality like features developing which is what we see in the animal kingdom. </div></div>

no personality is not unique to the human race...
my point is that can spirit or soul be fully understood let alone re-created...what about imagination....things like these are far beyond our abilities to master at this time...
i'm afraid man still trails nature by light years in terms of being a master </div></div>

it may not be necessary to try and recreate something that might not even exist- soul - but there are relevant theories and lines of inquiry into what many consider higher functions such as imagination, consciousness, etc.

<span style="font-weight: bold">AI and Consciousness
Consciousness is perhaps one of the most controversial areas of research in psychology. Currently, there is no general consensus as to how to define or measure conscious awareness. Despite this, both researchers and lay-persons alike feel that consciousness is a fundamental determinant of what it means to be human. Not surprisingly, in the field of AI, consciousness is just as controversial.

One fundamental issue is whether or not conscious awareness is simply a by-product of complex intelligent systems. Those who assume that consciousness is simply a by-product or an emergent property argue as follows. In humans, a single neuron has nothing resembling intelligence. Yet in combination, billions of neurons combine to form a mind that does possess intelligence. It would appear then, that the brain is more than the sum of its parts. Intelligence emerges with sufficient configural complexity of neurons. So it is not inconceivable that other attributes such as consciousness, creativity and emotionality may emerge as a by-product of complex artificially intelligent systems. In general then, the idea is that consciousness is just a by-product of any sufficiently complex brain, and AI engineers need not try to isolate and recreate it specifically, it will emerge automatically as needed.

If one assumes, on the other hand, that consciousness is not such a by-product, then an additional question is whether or not it is possible to computationally define, and simulate it. Thus, in asking whether computers can think, we must inevitably turn to the question of whether thinking computers would actually be conscious? In other words, at some point in the enterprise of AI it becomes important to define the relationship between consciousness and intelligence. For example, is consciousness a necessary condition for intelligent systems or would intelligent systems necessarily display consciousness?

Skeptics point out that a fundamental component of consciousness is subjective phenomenal experience which may be beyond the scope of computational simulation. To illustrate this distinction, imagine a person, totally colourblind from birth, who as a result, has never experienced the colour red as any different from an equally bright grey, or green. Then imagine that the person studies colour theory, physics, psychology of perception and the biology of the eye. Imagine that the person becomes totally knowledgeable about all aspects of the colour red. Skeptics argue that in studying all of this factual information, our person is learning the type of thing a computer might learn: wavelengths, frequencies, etc. However, what the person is not learning is what red really looks like - she can't see it, so her experience is lacking something. The argument then is that no amount of factual information - the kind you would give a computer - can give them the subjective experience of red, or anything else. What makes the argument significant is that the same skeptics argue that the subjective, personal, phenomenological experiences are what make up conciousness and thus without them, an AI cannot be conscious.

The Consciousness of Cog (if link fails, click here for a local copy) - Cog is one the most exciting projects in robotics today. It is the result of an entire team at MIT's AI lab, and the work is still in progress. This short summary discusses some concerns about the possibility of instilling a robot with consciousness, as seen from one of Cog's developers, philosopher Daniel Dennett.
Online Manuscripts on Computer Consciousness - David Chalmers has assembled a list of articles, available online, on the subject.</span>

http://www.psych.utoronto.ca/users/reingold/courses/ai/consciousness.html

[jah_yout]

Re: for Jah Yout, new artificial heart design...

aahh...consciousness;
a very intangible thing though we know what it is...

so far i am unaware if there exists a machine or program or human-cyborg contrapment that has consciousness &amp; can hold a real conversation...
now that would be rad, dude...
conscious enough to reason on its own &amp; hold a true reasoning session with independent thought;

i don't denigrate man's inventions...(well maybe nuclear weapons &amp; other instruments of death, suffering &amp; destruction)...
i simply state the appparent--- that &quot;nature&quot; has created superior creations in terms of complexity to this pont in time...
the human brain is unmatched as far as control towers are concerned

[johnnycakes]

Re: for Jah Yout, new artificial heart design...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">aahh...consciousness;
a very intangible thing though we know what it is...

so far i am unaware if there exists a machine or program or human-cyborg contrapment that has consciousness &amp; can hold a real conversation...
now that would be rad, dude...
conscious enough to reason on its own &amp; hold a true reasoning session with independent thought;

i don't denigrate man's inventions...(well maybe nuclear weapons &amp; other instruments of death, suffering &amp; destruction)...
i simply state the appparent--- that &quot;nature&quot; has created superior creations in terms of complexity to this pont in time...
the human brain is unmatched as far as control towers are concerned </div></div>


jah_yout,

They expect to have a computer/AI that will be the equal in intelligence of an insect in about 2-3 years.

After that they expect something as smart as a mouse around 2018 or so and something in the range of a human in the 2020s.

This according to Kurzweil who has been around 90% accurate in his technological predictions which tie into Moore's Law on the doubling of computers power every few years.


As said, no one knows if sufficient knowledge is enough to create consciousness. We'll have to wait about 30 years to find out.


Exciting times to come.