Basics of Evolution 101

**johnnycakes** · 10-02-2011, 09:21 PM

Re: Basics of Evolution 101

please remember... your body, with all the mechanisms and goodies it contains (brain, heart, lungs etc.) is not you. You are the "spirit" that animate the parts. You are the things you "say" and "do" not the tongue and the hand. Your spirit powers everything.
Have you ever looked upon a dead body. Can you not see it is just a shell that is empty? Flesh that will soon disintegrate and turn to dust leaving bone behind that will rot.

Lorreador,

Thank you for stating the obvious. Did you think I was not aware that we are animated meat? But I probably am going a step beyond you to say that I also believe that the spirit: our consciousness also ends when the supporting environment which is the body stops working.

What exactly is it to us how life was created? Are you unhappy with the particular way it was done or are you happy with it?

Lorreador,
I am perfectly happy to be here at all. This little speck of blue way way out in the universe is teeming with life and that is wonder enough for me.
I love humanity.It's the damned people I have problems with.

Can you accept the facts you believe without insulting those who believe differently?

Lorreador,

Usually not when I'm talking to superstitious, believers in magic, miracles, a celestial dictator who can read your evil thoughts and punish you for that, those who think accepting the torture and death by crucifixion of Christ to absolve us of OUR transgressions is somehow moral, that a
Guy-In-The Sky whipped up the universe and Earth in six days in such a screwed up and incompetent manner and so on.

If you're a Jew, Christian Moslem, Rasta, it would be nearly impossible for me to not be what you would consider insulting. The beliefs and practices of these four faiths are so bizarre, misogynist, reflective of primitive thinking and detrimental to humanity and pointing that out to those who practice those faiths to one degree or another has to be insulting because it makes them out to be ignorant.
You can draw a harmless analogy to your reaction to primitives who used to worship
fear, make sacrifices to volcano gods and the like.
What would today's religious people think of them? What would they say about them that would not be insulting to those who believe in something we all now know is ridiculous and based on ignorance?

Are you steaming yet ?

I happen to believe a combination of both. That means I believe some of your views but definitely not all. If you condemn others of blind close-mindedness, condemn yourself as well because you are both and to the extreme.

Lorreador,

I am as extreme as it gets.
I am an anarcho-syndicalist which is a highly evolved form of communism.
Suffice to say it is so far out on the real left that I doubt you know what it is.

Secondly and as said before, I am not just an atheist but an anti-theist: one who actively opposes theism and especially the three that came out of the Middle East but I must also mention Mormonism which has its own special crazy about it.

How extreme would you like?

Most importantly, since we have already been "originated" (a process you had nothing to do with btw, so claiming the "Factual" knowledge or belief does not make you more intelligent, or highter on the food chain) and can't do anything more about it, why don't we look forward and try to sort out our present and future. Try to help to make the short time we have good for everybody. BTW there's nothing you can do and there will be no new scientific break through regarding your ending. Facts will mean nothing to you when you are dead. Maybe then you'll finally know for sure who was right.

Lorreador,

You simply must look into Ray Kurzweil and the "Singularity" if you think that there is nothing that can be done about our deaths, our ending.

I cannot and will not go into detail because it takes several books worth to get any sort of serious comprehension of what is involved with the "Singularity" but in short, it predicts a skrocketing of the progress in AI and technology to the point where nanobots (microscopic robotic computers) will cure diseases like cancer before we even know we have them. This and as said books more of things that will enable us to live for 1000 years. Here's a link to the Time Mag. article that first got me interested in Kurzweil and the "Singularity".

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2048299,00.html

And... if you claim to be a Christian... here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo82sgrSAYg

Do please let me know what you think of the Hitchens segment.

As long as you can be civil.

**jah_yout** · 10-03-2011, 08:38 AM

Re: Basics of Evolution 101

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lorradear</div><div class="ubbcode-body">@Johhnycakes

please remember... your body, with all the mechanisms and goodies it contains (brain, heart, lungs etc.) is not you. You are the "spirit" that animate the parts. You are the things you "say" and "do" not the tongue and the hand. Your spirit powers everything.
Have you ever looked upon a dead body. Can you not see it is just a shell that is empty? Flesh that will soon disintegrate and turn to dust leaving bone behind that will rot.
What exactly is it to us how life was created? Are you unhappy with the particular way it was done or are you happy with it? Can you accept the facts you believe without insulting those who believe differently? I happen to believe a combination of both. That means I believe some of your views but definitely not all. <span style="font-weight: bold">If you condemn others of blind close-mindedness, condemn yourself as well because you are both and to the extreme.</span>Most importantly, since we have already been "originated" (a process you had nothing to do with btw, so claiming the "Factual" knowledge or belief does not make you more intelligent, or highter on the food chain) and can't do anything more about it, why don't we look forward and try to sort out our present and future. Try to help to make the short time we have good for everybody. BTW there's nothing you can do and there will be no new scientific break through regarding your ending. Facts will mean nothing to you when you are dead. Maybe then you'll finally know for sure who was right. </div></div>

i can dig this...
it's a great mystery to me why the modern human considers himself to possess all the answers

**jah_yout** · 10-03-2011, 08:55 AM

Re: Basics of Evolution 101

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but here's the thing- we DO have knowledge and facts. incontrovertible ones, such as common ancestry with apes, gravity, evolution, physics, engineering</div></div>

yes we do have facts...but not ALL of them--- this is what you can not grasp-- that there are still many things we do not know;
you are mistaken in saying that common ancestry with apes is irrefutable fact...
they also consider common ancestry with fish to be irrefutable fact, but it is still merely speculation...they focus on the ape due to obvious similarities, but the evolution theory states that ALL life has one ancestor...
gravity is irrefutable fact-- we all know we won't fly away, but the human-ape link is speculation

.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> there are plenty of alternative ideas, and that is why we need the scientific method, because then we can whittle away at the bad ideas- like flat earths or creationism- with proofs and evidences, and we can build on our prior knowledge, which is why wheels went from wood to mag rims with rubber tires.</div></div>

yes but the fact that we need scientific analysis does NOT give us the right to claim we have answers to questions which we do NOT...
lumping mysteries that we do not know but dismiss into a category of flat earth or creationism is intellectual dishonesty...
there are ideas from the ancient world which are clearly primitive & erroneous...there are also things from the ancient world which we have yet to explain or even reproduce

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you seem to suggest man should be happy and in awe of the wood wheel and forego inquiry and </div></div>

you say i seem to but things are not always what they seem...
there is no greater endeavor than to increase knowledge & understanding--- that is a great thing;
but to rule things out that we do not understand is not the way to gain knowledge...
accepting what you do not know & going about trying to get the answers with an open mind is more conducive to true learning & knowledge...

by the way-- does one of your red blood cells know exactly how it came into existence?
what stories would it tell its offspring about how they got here?
does it know every aspect of its 'universe'--i.e. the human body in which it resides & the biological system in which it works?
does that cell appreciate the scope of the earth...and that the earth is like the point of a needle compared to the wider universe?
everything can be seen differently depending on the scale on which it is being viewed

**jah_yout** · 10-03-2011, 09:37 AM

Re: Basics of Evolution 101

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you're a Jew, Christian Moslem, Rasta, it would be nearly impossible for me to not be what you would consider insulting</div></div>.

wow...that's deep

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The beliefs and practices of these four faiths are so bizarre, misogynist, reflective of primitive thinking and detrimental to humanity and pointing that out to those who practice those faiths to one degree or another has to be insulting because it makes them out to be ignorant.</div></div>

you see johnny you have not studied religion enough to be able to hold a serious debate about the entire picture...humans have abused spirituality & distorted it into religion, much the way that we abused cosmic energy and turned it into weapons of mass destruction called nuclear bombs...
you have a knee-jerk reaction of condemning anything remotely attached to religion and insulting people who may view the world different from you-- this is exactly what many religions have done- so how are you better than the religionists you insult & condemn? hmmmm;
you are merely the practitioner of yet another religion- call it atheism or singularity or contrarianism or whatever-- furthermore i ask you to look up the meaning of the world religion and you will see that you are also a religionist; you fit nicely into the close-minded mindset of religious fanatics-- who also think their religion is the only rational answer and the only way-- even if you cloak it in the language of science & reason...hitler also cloaked what he did in the language of science & reason---
a few decades back the aryans were scientifically proven to be superior to the rest of humanity---go search it out, you will see that within the last 400 years, there are innumerable 'scientific' books & discourses spouting off about 'irrefutable fact' of the superiority of the european race over all others & especially the african & australoid races...even from the most esteemed leaders of the time--the high & mighty founding fathers of america considered the african as less than a human being & were backed up by the infallible scientists of the time...
they spoke much the same way you do now- about who is primitive & stupid and how 'natural selection (god)' "created" the superior aryan type...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can draw a harmless analogy to your reaction to primitives who used to worship
fear, make sacrifices to volcano gods and the like.</div></div>

pointing out primitive practices based on superstition does not change where we are right now...ignorance will be wherever the people do not know....
so ignorance is still with us since we do not know--- yes there is much we have learned, but still much we do not know;
we still kill and die...we still get sick...we still eat & defecate...with all our knowledge we have still not solved the riddle of life- or death;

if you have solved that mystery i say you are a great man...because that video certainly did not...and the first video was even more ridiculous

**johnnycakes** · 10-03-2011, 10:29 AM

Re: Basics of Evolution 101

j_y,

You are putting words in my mouth.

I am an atheist and do not need attend meetings nor do I need make unsubstantiated arguments to defend what I believe.

An anti-theist is one who is actively against beliefs such as a god who you must pray to etc, a god who created you ,watches you and yet does incredibly atrocious things to you. An anti-theist is one who is against the evils of organized religions: the misogyny of most religions, the sexual relations prohibitions that poison people's minds against people with less popular sexual preferences, the Mormon belief that blacks and other people of color are cursed.
In short anti-theists actively fight and speak out against that kind of belief shytstem: the kinds that poison everything.

You are not one to tell anyone much less me that I am not qualified to have a serious debate on theism. You and most of the theists will not read Christopher Hitchens' "God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything" .
When I posted Hitchens' You Tube video on "vicarious redemption" I could not get a single "religious" person to view it, argue with the points made by Hitchens and defend their immorality and ignorance.

One big difference is that If God were to make an appearance, I would have far less of a problem dealing with that event than you and those who believe the incredible things bound up in your religion's fables would have if you were to realize that there is no celestial magician/dictator.

You haven't read either Hitchens book nor do you apparently understand much if anything about the "Singularity" because you'd need to read at least on book on it to have a working knowledge of what is involved and as a result you are conflating my understanding of things based on fact with a religion which is based on faith.
If this is an unintentional error in reasoning, fine. If it is a deliberate attempt to conflate and confuse the issues then it's a spurious debating technique at best.

One thing I do have faith in is the basic goodness of humans which has been badly twisted by both religion and capitalism; the two institutions to which I devote my attentions.

If you wish to call me racist, you do that. I fully expect that in these fora.

But please do consider that for all the warranted, well deserved antipathy held for white people the descendants of colonized and enslaved African peoples these same oppressed peoples have adopted:

1) the oppressor's religion or offshoots thereof
2) the oppressor's religion-based homophobia
3) the oppressor's destructive and impoverishing economic system.
4) Many black societies exhibit racialism; the preference for lighter skinned people and the straightening of hair and the bleaching of skin to reflect the oppressor's idea of beauty.
5) the oppressor's undemocratic system of government.
6) The adoption of racist attitudes which is exemplified by the unqualified support for a murderous president based solely on the color of his skin and the criticism of ALL those whites who criticize his POLICIES.

All I'm doing is pointing out the problems in adopting all that immoral and crippling baggage.

(Organized) Religion is not the answer. It is one of the problems.
Scientific facts are answers to problems and problems of ignorance.

**jah_yout** · 10-03-2011, 12:03 PM

Re: Basics of Evolution 101

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An anti-theist is one who is actively against beliefs such as a god who you must pray to etc, a god who created you ,watches you and yet does incredibly atrocious things to you. An anti-theist is one who is against the evils of organized religions: the misogyny of most religions, the sexual relations prohibitions that poison people's minds against people with less popular sexual preferences, the Mormon belief that blacks and other people of color are cursed.
In short anti-theists actively fight and speak out against that kind of belief shytstem: the kinds that poison everything. </div></div>

(<span style="font-style: italic">i am listening to richard dawkins on the radio right now as we speak</span>)

i am against these things too...but i don't label myself in terms of accepted ideas about who or what god is...it is beyond ALL of our comprehension right now...far beyond neat categories..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are not one to tell anyone much less me that I am not qualified to have a serious debate on theism. You and most of the theists will not read Christopher Hitchens' "God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything" .
When I posted Hitchens' You Tube video on "vicarious redemption" I could not get a single "religious" person to view it, argue with the points made by Hitchens and defend their immorality and ignorance.</div></div>

you need a new point of attack...since i am neither a religionist nor a scripturist...i know that life exists outside of the plane of the narrow view of "theists vs. atheists", "evolutionists vs. creationists" camps...i am in neither of those camps...at some point we have to use deeper analysis than what has already been put out there...this is a dumbed-down approach to solving these mysteries...you must accpt the fact that doubting the theories we have out there regarding evolution & abiogenesis does not automatically mean one believes in the bible, the quran, adam & eve, jesus, noah, magic, etc.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One big difference is that If God were to make an appearance, I would have far less of a problem dealing with that event than you and those who believe the incredible things bound up in your religion's fables would have if you were to realize that there is no celestial magician/dictator.</div></div>

the way i see it, you have a very limited concept of who/what "God" is...your concept is based mainly on religious texts & ideas--- especially christian---and neither you nor the religionists seem to be able to imagine "God" in any other contexts but the established, known religious texts or cultural practices

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You haven't read either Hitchens book nor do you apparently understand much if anything about the "Singularity" because you'd need to read at least on book on it to have a working knowledge of what is involved and as a result you are conflating my understanding of things based on fact with a religion which is based on faith.
If this is an unintentional error in reasoning, fine. If it is a deliberate attempt to conflate and confuse the issues then it's a spurious debating technique at best.</div></div>

well singularity is not here, nor is it proven...so you are basing your faith in it on just that---faith--- it sounds almost utopian, like the kingdom come of the religionists

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing I do have faith in is the basic goodness of humans which has been badly twisted by both religion and capitalism; the two institutions to which I devote my attentions.</div></div>

so before religion & capitalism there was no badness or evil in humans??

ha ha

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you wish to call me racist, you do that. I fully expect that in these fora.</div></div>

i am not doing that at all---just reminding you that, say, 70 years ago it was "irrefutable scientific fact" that the african was inferior to the european...the leading thinkers & scientists of the day- including world leaders espoused that view...just pointing out that science has been misused for selfish or ideological reasons, & possibly can still be used for such...some of those views have since been discredited

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But please do consider that for all the warranted, well deserved antipathy held for white people the descendants of colonized and enslaved African peoples these same oppressed peoples have adopted:

1) the oppressor's religion or offshoots thereof
2) the oppressor's religion-based homophobia
3) the oppressor's destructive and impoverishing economic system.
4) Many black societies exhibit racialism; the preference for lighter skinned people and the straightening of hair and the bleaching of skin to reflect the oppressor's idea of beauty.
5) the oppressor's undemocratic system of government.
6) The adoption of racist attitudes which is exemplified by the unqualified support for a murderous president based solely on the color of his skin and the criticism of ALL those whites who criticize his POLICIES.</div></div>

the current problems of the african & some other non-euro peoples on earth is based more on another religion-- RACISM than it is based on other religious doctrines...
the stuff you mention is more the result of brainwash & misinterpretation of religion than it is about "God"-- a.k.a. the cosmic order of the universe;

religion is not just creation myths...the essence of the message in most of these religions boils down to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"...
this message has escaped many who claim this religion or that---people's minds are molded by many shytstems on earth...religion being but one of them...misguided philosophies can also fall into that category- things like nazism, facism, fuedalism, etc.--- all human concepts aiming at a better way of life for the people espousing it---until it goes wrong & leads to chaos...it is simply absurd to lay the blame of all the ills of the world on religion...or capitalism...just too simple

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All I'm doing is pointing out the problems in adopting all that immoral and crippling baggage.</div></div>

with sweeping condemnations? or would reasoning be better?

(<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Organized) Religion is not the answer. It is one of the problems.</div></div>

true- along with a multitude of other problems besides religion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Scientific facts are answers to problems and problems of ignorance</div></div>

true, but the answers not yet known by science should be explored with an open mind;
the minute we feel we know everything then learning becomes very difficult if not impossible

**johnnycakes** · 10-03-2011, 02:53 PM

Re: Basics of Evolution 101

well singularity is not here, nor is it proven...so you are basing your faith in it on just that---faith--- it sounds almost utopian, like the kingdom come of the religionists.

j_y,

The "Singularity" will not occur for about 30 years but Moore's Law which is the underpinning of the exponential growth and which is central to the coming of the "Singularity" is certainly valid.
About 95% of the predictions made by Kurzweil since the 90's regarding the advances in AI and technology have held up.
I cannot debate any further with you on this since you lack the data to make any sort of serious judgement and you are indeed speaking from ignorance on this matter.
Neither will you read Kurzweil's book " The Singularity Is Near" but i can offer you this brief introduction to at least catch a glimmer of what it involves.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2048299,00.html

'you must accpt the fact that doubting the theories we have out there regarding evolution & abiogenesis does not automatically mean one believes in the bible, the quran, adam & eve, jesus, noah, magic, etc."

j_y,

The leading proponents of not accepting science are religions and those who follow them . I'm dealing with those people and institutions. I have no problem with deists. It is when theists kill and otherwise make miserable the lives of non-believers that I have a problem.

That extends to the misogyny of most religions, the homophobia of most religions, the sexual restrictions of most religions and the nearly complete hypocrisy of those who practice their cafeteria version of their religions.

"the way i see it, you have a very limited concept of who/what "God"

j-y,

I do not have a concept of God, an Intelligent Designer, any supernatural omniscient or omnipotent being, To me that concept is both bizarre and atavistic
it's an attempt to explain the as yet unknown in the same way as was done in prehistoric times and the Bronze Age from whence our most popular religions arose.
It strikes me as primitive thinking as befits a society, a race that had no idea of modern science and for whom a flashlight would seem to be something that only a god could create.
I'll believe in your god or gods when you can produce any one of them

"so before religion & capitalism there was no badness or evil in humans??"

Well you can also go back to the Bible and see that before the (totally fictional) Exodus from Egypt for something like 95,000 years God allowed us to think that murder, lying, greed were all perfectly okay and then finally he gave Moses those 15 (oops)...... those Ten Commandments which proscribes such things.
Of course evil existed for all of humanity's existence but that evil was not as institutionalized or widespread in its effects until the advent of those religions arising out of the Middle East and fairly modern day capitalism.

"the stuff you mention is more the result of brainwash & misinterpretation of religion '

j_y,
Try reading Leviticus. What it says should be done to adulterers, homosexuals and other "sinners" is crystal clear and no misinterpretation is possible. It's the word of the God of all Christians and Jews.

"true, but the answers not yet known by science should be explored with an open mind;
the minute we feel we know everything then learning becomes very difficult if not impossible"

j_y ,

If exploring the unknown with an open mind involves the acceptance of supernatural beings, myths, legends sorry, I'm not buying that and haven't since I was about twelve and God/intelligent designer or whatever you call God or something that resembles him/her/it followed Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, duppies and monsters-under-the-bed into the trash bin.
I never at any time said I knew everything so you are again putting words in my mouth by erroneously extrapolating from what I did say.

While this may or may not apply to you, it is fact that those of faith will not accept scientific fact when it runs counter to what they have long and erroneously believed to be true because that's what their authority figures have told them in church.
This is not true of those of us who are not burdened with such nonsense and brainwashing.

An important note is that these brainwashed have been brainwashed in a continuing and constant manner since birth. They cannot, dare not question the authority and beliefs they have held all their lives. That unswerving devotion to authority also carries over into their societies and is manifest in such things as the acceptance of governments and electoral and political systems that are destructive to those unquestioning follower .

Thank Dog I don't have that problem.

**jah_yout** · 10-03-2011, 09:26 PM

Re: Basics of Evolution 101

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"the way i see it, you have a very limited concept of who/what "God"

j-y,

I do not have a concept of God, an Intelligent Designer, any supernatural omniscient or omnipotent being, To me that concept is both bizarre and atavistic
it's an attempt to explain the as yet unknown in the same way as was done in prehistoric times and the Bronze Age from whence our most popular religions arose.
It strikes me as primitive thinking as befits a society, a race that had no idea of modern science and for whom a flashlight would seem to be something that only a god could create.
I'll believe in your god or gods when you can produce any one of them</div></div>

you are looking at popular definitions of 'god'...but i am not...i'm saying the thing described as 'god' (the cosmic order of the universe) may be something you have never even taken into consideration or imagined...by this i am not referring to a magical supernatural being in that sense..your knowledge is limited but you will never accept this i see...
you still have never answered my question if a cell in your body has self consciousness...and does it know it is a component in a larger system...does it know everything about the human body in which it resides...can it comprehend a man's thoughts who is commanding it to do his will...
would love to hear your thoughts on this...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"so before religion & capitalism there was no badness or evil in humans??"

Well you can also go back to the Bible and see that before the (totally fictional) Exodus from Egypt for something like 95,000 years God allowed us to think that murder, lying, greed were all perfectly okay and then finally he gave Moses those 15 (oops)...... those Ten Commandments which proscribes such things.
Of course evil existed for all of humanity's existence but that evil was not as institutionalized or widespread in its effects until the advent of those religions arising out of the Middle East and fairly modern day capitalism.</div></div>

so religion appeared on earth & made evil worse...ok got it;
i must also reiterate to you that there are religious texts far older than 'the bible' ---(which is not a book but a set of different books commonly lumped together as if it were one contiguous work)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"the stuff you mention is more the result of brainwash & misinterpretation of religion '

j_y,
Try reading Leviticus. What it says should be done to adulterers, homosexuals and other "sinners" is crystal clear and no misinterpretation is possible. It's the word of the God of all Christians and Jews.</div></div>

see previous statement..leviticus is a book...it is included in popular versions of the bible but it is one book...and even those statements in leviticus are open to interpretation...for example if i wrote "you kill me"...it might be in reference to a funny joke you told me and not an actual murder attempt...everything is based on interpretation...we are trapped by our own thoughts or liberated by the same...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"true, but the answers not yet known by science should be explored with an open mind;
the minute we feel we know everything then learning becomes very difficult if not impossible"

j_y ,

If exploring the unknown with an open mind involves the acceptance of supernatural beings, myths, legends sorry, I'm not buying that and haven't since I was about twelve and God/intelligent designer or whatever you call God or something that resembles him/her/it followed Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, duppies and monsters-under-the-bed into the trash bin.
I never at any time said I knew everything so you are again putting words in my mouth by erroneously extrapolating from what I did say.

While this may or may not apply to you, it is fact that those of faith will not accept scientific fact when it runs counter to what they have long and erroneously believed to be true because that's what their authority figures have told them in church.
This is not true of those of us who are not burdened with such nonsense and brainwashing.</div></div>

yea--- does not apply to me...but i'm fully aware it does apply to some

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An important note is that these brainwashed have been brainwashed in a continuing and constant manner since birth. They cannot, dare not question the authority and beliefs they have held all their lives. That unswerving devotion to authority also carries over into their societies and is manifest in such things as the acceptance of governments and electoral and political systems that are destructive to those unquestioning follower .

Thank Dog I don't have that problem.</div></div>

but you could develop it if, like them, you get to a point where you close your mind off from growing or increasing knowledge based on past firmly held conceptions you may have had or still have...

**johnnycakes** · 10-03-2011, 10:37 PM

Re: Basics of Evolution 101

you still have never answered my question if a cell in your body has self consciousness...and does it know it is a component in a larger system...does it know everything about the human body in which it resides...can it comprehend a man's thoughts who is commanding it to do his will...
would love to hear your thoughts on this...

j_y,

If my aunt developed testicles she'd be my uncle and that premise is just as ludicrous and just as unlikely as a single cell having consciousness.

"but i am not...i'm saying the thing described as 'god' (the cosmic order of the universe) may be something...

j_y,

What is your alternative source for the creation of the universe ? You never quite get to it.

"see previous statement..leviticus is a book...it is included in popular versions of the bible but it is one book...and even those statements in leviticus are open to interpretation...for example if i wrote "you kill me"...it might be in reference to a funny joke you told me and not an actual murder attempt...everything is based on interpretation...we are trapped by our own thoughts or liberated by the same..."

j_y
The Bible is supposed to be the word of God. Leviticus is part of the Bible and it is quite clear. There are countless other parts of the Bible in which God orders child mutilation, misogyny, genocide in quite clear fashion. No version of Leviticus varies to the degree that it nullifies these celestial orders for horrible things.
The "you kill me " analogy is really grasping at straws.

"but you could develop it if, like them, you get to a point where you close your mind off from growing or increasing knowledge based on past firmly held conceptions you may have had or still have.."

If, by "you' you mean me then you are indeed on solid ground in thinking that this may be possible or likely in my case.

Here's an excerpt from that study:

A 2006 study by Charles Taber and Milton Lodge at Stony Brook University showed that politically sophisticated thinkers were even less open to new information than less sophisticated types. These people may be factually right about 90 percent of things, but their confidence makes it nearly impossible to correct the 10 percent on which they’re totally wrong. Taber and Lodge found this alarming, because engaged, sophisticated thinkers are “the very folks on whom democratic theory relies most heavily.”

While this may be generally true in the case of political thinking, it may not apply in the case of the debate on God/ whatever and atheism/science where the subject is rather limited and clearcut.
And even were it to be true in this case, I happen to be on the 90% correct side of things and in the God vs no God debate it's all or nothing and we non-believers have the decided advantage.
Happily, the future does not look bright for the ever-diminishing pro-God side as science slowly but steadily unravels the mysteries heretofore only believed to be of supernatural origin.

please do explain your concept of God or that supreme being or intelligence or whatever it is that you think might exist as an alternative explanation for abiogenesis and evolution.

**jah_yout** · 10-04-2011, 09:21 AM

Re: Basics of Evolution 101

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you still have never answered my question if a cell in your body has self consciousness...and does it know it is a component in a larger system...does it know everything about the human body in which it resides...can it comprehend a man's thoughts who is commanding it to do his will...
would love to hear your thoughts on this...

j_y,

If my aunt developed testicles she'd be my uncle and that premise is just as ludicrous and just as unlikely as a single cell having consciousness.</div></div>

why is a cell having consciousness ludicrous??
do you know any cells personally?
how a bout a flea? does it have consciousness? who are you to say whether certain living things have consciousness or not?
the nerve...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"but i am not...i'm saying the thing described as 'god' (the cosmic order of the universe) may be something...

j_y,

What is your alternative source for the creation of the universe ? You never quite get to it.</div></div>

it is the mystery of mysteries...i've always maintained i do not know the origin of origins...there are myths, legends & there are theories...personally it is beyond my comprehension at this time...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"see previous statement..leviticus is a book...it is included in popular versions of the bible but it is one book...and even those statements in leviticus are open to interpretation...for example if i wrote "you kill me"...it might be in reference to a funny joke you told me and not an actual murder attempt...everything is based on interpretation...we are trapped by our own thoughts or liberated by the same..."

j_y
The Bible is supposed to be the word of God. Leviticus is part of the Bible and it is quite clear. There are countless other parts of the Bible in which God orders child mutilation, misogyny, genocide in quite clear fashion. No version of Leviticus varies to the degree that it nullifies these celestial orders for horrible things.
The "you kill me " analogy is really grasping at straws.</div></div>

cakes someone told someone else that a collection of books known as the bible is the word of god and they bought it--- that is their and your interpretation...pesonally i know that the word of god is to be found everywhere-- not just in one set of books from one region of the planet--
you seem incapable of going beyond religion & the bible in your war against "creation"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"but you could develop it if, like them, you get to a po
int where you close your mind off from growing or increasing knowledge based on past firmly held conceptions you may have had or still have.."

If, by "you' you mean me then you are indeed on solid ground in thinking that this may be possible or likely in my case.

Here's an excerpt from that study:

A 2006 study by Charles Taber and Milton Lodge at Stony Brook University showed that politically sophisticated thinkers were even less open to new information than less sophisticated types. These people may be factually right about 90 percent of things, but their confidence makes it nearly impossible to correct the 10 percent on which they’re totally wrong. Taber and Lodge found this alarming, because engaged, sophisticated thinkers are “the very folks on whom democratic theory relies most heavily.”

While this may be generally true in the case of political thinking, it may not apply in the case of the debate on God/ whatever and atheism/science where the subject is rather limited and clearcut.
And even were it to be true in this case, I happen to be on the 90% correct side of things and in the God vs no God debate it's all or nothing and we non-believers have the decided advantage.
Happily, the future does not look bright for the ever-diminishing pro-God side as science slowly but steadily unravels the mysteries heretofore only believed to be of supernatural origin.</div></div>

your debate is useless if your definition of "God" is limited to religious doctrine...you are fighting against a concept-- called "god" which is simply undefined, since different cultures, religions, peoples, etc. have different concepts of what is supreme in the universe...for our purposes we refer to as "god"...nature, the creator, the almighty, the most high, etc.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">please do explain your concept of God or that supreme being or intelligence or whatever it is that you think might exist as an alternative explanation for abiogenesis and evolution. </div></div>

i am saying we do not know...
abiogenesis is an attempt to explain it, but they still do not know;
creation myths are also attempts to explain it for they also did not know...

you claim a cell does not have consciousness so you reject the possibility that consciousness is the ultimate characteristic of "god"...
i will get into another thread on creation speculations...but ultimately there is an order to the universe---a very real order to things...so magnificent that it is presently beyond our comprehension...it will take much more study & brainpower
.........so far we are still a long way off...and still uncivilized most of us

**johnnycakes** · 10-04-2011, 12:04 PM

Re: Basics of Evolution 101

why is a cell having consciousness ludicrous??
do you know any cells personally?
how a bout a flea? does it have consciousness? who are you to say whether certain living things have consciousness or not?
the nerve...

j_y,

If you have any solid scientific evidence that a single cell can have consciousness, I am perfectly willing to look at it and be convinced. Science says that single cell consciousness is not possible and they've done the research you not only have not but of which you have no knowledge..
Consciousness is possible in humans because we have the power to reason and this takes a brain.
We can all imagine that a cell or a rock or a tree has consciousness but there is no evidence of that. We can imagine any number of close-to-impossible things if we so choose. It makes for good fiction but for a damned poor grasp on reality.
Stop wasting our time on this.

"it is the mystery of mysteries...i've always maintained i do not know the origin of origins...there are myths, legends & there are theories...personally it is beyond my comprehension at this time..."

Good answer. It would seem from your posts that you have not excluded that celestial magician and so my question would be what percentages would you place on the relative likelihoods of theistic creationism (literal Bible) , deist creationism (Intelligent designer set up molten ball of fire and left things to abiogenesis and evolution) or straight abiogenesis and evolution?

cakes someone told someone else that a collection of books known as the bible is the word of god and they bought it--- that is their and your interpretation...pesonally i know that the word of god is to be found everywhere-- not just in one set of books from one region of the planet--
you seem incapable of going beyond religion & the bible in your war against "creation"

j_y,

Creationism is a creation of those who wrote the Bible, it is literally believed by millions of fundamentalists and to lesser degrees by millions of others who, because of the absolute solidity of the proof of evolution, have had to modify their heretofore unshakeable faith in the word of the Bible.
Intelligent Design is just a cuter and more sophisticated way of saying the same thing.
We seem to differ in that you are agnostic and do not know but do not exclude magic.
I absolutely do not believe in a supernatural cause for our existence.

"your debate is useless if your definition of "God" is limited to religious doctrine...you are fighting against a concept-- called "god" which is simply undefined, since different cultures, religions, peoples, etc. have different concepts of what is supreme in the universe...for our purposes we refer to as "god"...nature, the creator, the almighty, the most high, etc.'

j_y,

To clarify, I do not believe in any supernatural force, not God, not any god, no duppies, no fairies, no leprechauns, nothing for which there is no proof. No magic, no miracles unless you wish to consider any life anywhere in the vast and nearly sterile reaches of the universe as akin to a miracle, which I do. I just preclude even the possibility of a supernatural cause.
You were unnecessarily clouding my convictions.

"i am saying we do not know...
abiogenesis is an attempt to explain it, but they still do not know;
creation myths are also attempts to explain it for they also did not know...

j_y,

Science, as in the video, clearly shows how abiogenesis (life coming from non-life) actually happens. It is no longer theory, it is fact.
No one is saying that that is how life began on Earth but it does actually work.
All the conditions, chemicals and time were available for it to happen on Earth and it is by far the best explanation for our existence coupled with the also valid evolutionary process that is even apparent in this very early organism.

Of course your fallback is that NO ONE was there when life began, no conscious single cells have come forward with the history, so we must include a celestial superpower in the possibilities.

"you claim a cell does not have consciousness so you reject the possibility that consciousness is the ultimate characteristic of "god"..."

j_y,

You are making erroneous extrapolations. Consciousness is a human trait that is tied up with our unique ability to reason and not go by instinct as do lower animals.
I reject the concept of a god, higher power whatever name you choose for the supernatural so the consciousness of a non-existant being is a non-starter.

**rudemonk** · 10-05-2011, 10:37 PM

Re: Basics of Evolution 101

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but here's the thing- we DO have knowledge and facts. incontrovertible ones, such as common ancestry with apes, gravity, evolution, physics, engineering</div></div>

yes we do have facts...but not ALL of them--- this is what you can not grasp-- that there are still many things we do not know;
</div></div>

I grasp that just fine, but I do not feel that not knowing something is anything special. I just know that it is a matter of time until we DO know. And we build on prior knowledge.

you don't need ALL the facts to make educated guesses, and prove them. that is the scientific method. and that is why knowledge is not static, but growing, and why we are advancing at exponential rates.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

you are mistaken in saying that common ancestry with apes is irrefutable fact...
they also consider common ancestry with fish to be irrefutable fact, but it is still merely speculation...they focus on the ape due to obvious similarities, but the evolution theory states that ALL life has one ancestor...
gravity is irrefutable fact-- we all know we won't fly away, but the human-ape link is speculation

</div></div>

the only one speculating is yourself and people who choose to remain in ignorance of the facts, like genetic scars which prove irrefutably what everything else also proves, that man and ape share a common ancestor in our distant past. the same science that makes it possible for you to have cures for diseases that used to wipe out entire populations, prove paternity or exonerate death row inmates, all proves that man and ape share common ancestry, because without one there couldn't be another technology- it wouldn't work. so it's certainly provable, because science is adaptable and applicable. nobody can apply your awe of mystery and reverance for what we don't know yet to anything to do anything of worth- it certainly won't allow a pig valve to be placed in a human heart, or a cow valve. it certainly won't allow a gene we share with amphibians to get switched back on. science does that, and it does it, and that is why we can say that we share common ancestry and evolution is right, even though we don't know how life got started and can only surmise and make educated guesses- no matter how uncomfortable that might make you.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
yes but the fact that we need scientific analysis does NOT give us the right to claim we have answers to questions which we do NOT...
</div></div>

again, I don't know what drumbeat you are marching to because this is simply an obvious fact of the matter for scientists and those interested- that's why they make hypothesis and TEST them, because they don't assume, they want proof, testable, quantifiable proof. a claim is not an answer as I understand you to be using the term here. And science certainly never makes the case that science knows everything. Ever.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
lumping mysteries that we do not know but dismiss into a category of flat earth or creationism is intellectual dishonesty...
</div></div>

sorry, but quite simply there is wrong and there is right. saying the earth is 6,000 years old and was created out of thin air by God is hokey pokey gobbledeegook. It's not intellectual dishonesty, making such claims and trying to get people to believe that is.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
there are ideas from the ancient world which are clearly primitive & erroneous...there are also things from the ancient world which we have yet to explain or even reproduce
</div></div>

?

So?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

you say i seem to but things are not always what they seem...
there is no greater endeavor than to increase knowledge & understanding--- that is a great thing;
but to rule things out that we do not understand is not the way to gain knowledge...
accepting what you do not know & going about trying to get the answers with an open mind is more conducive to true learning & knowledge...
</div></div>

you're right, but you're wrong because you are not increasing your knowledge or understanding if you don't do exactly that. You are right now ruling out what you don't understand. nobody who is increasing their understanding would be able to state some of the things you hold- science IS the open mind- because it actually TESTS it's claims to determine their truth value, and that is why you often state things change, because if you don't have an open mind, you don't belong in science.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
by the way-- does one of your red blood cells know exactly how it came into existence?
what stories would it tell its offspring about how they got here?
does it know every aspect of its 'universe'--i.e. the human body in which it resides & the biological system in which it works?
does that cell appreciate the scope of the earth...and that the earth is like the point of a needle compared to the wider universe?
everything can be seen differently depending on the scale on which it is being viewed

</div></div>

as far as I or anyone else who is rational would care, this query makes no sense. are you trying to create an argument of scale AND wonder, as if to say we humans are just puny creatures who should be on their knees because thor rolls through the heavens in his chariot and our crops get watered? it's cute, but i don't see it as anything but a hallmark card pat on the back triteness.

by the way, if you were in need of a new bladder, would you believe that some scientists somewhere are able to grow one for you.

What will you do in 5 or 6 years when they can replicate a human heart that will never suffer cardiac arrest.

**jah_yout** · 10-06-2011, 09:06 AM

Re: Basics of Evolution 101

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Science, as in the video, clearly shows how abiogenesis (life coming from non-life) actually happens. It is no longer theory, it is fact.</div></div>

kudos- you have solved the mystery of life where all else have failed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No one is saying that that is how life began on Earth but it does actually work</div></div>.

no one?
you just wrote that it is no longer theory, it is fact...

are you really that bold as to say you & the video producer know for a fact how life was produced?

great - i expect to see that create an organism from scratch/ non-life

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Of course your fallback is that NO ONE was there when life began, no conscious single cells have come forward with the history, so we must include a celestial superpower in the possibilities.</div></div>

i never labeled anything as a 'celestial superpower'...but i guess you could describe the sun as such...and it is instrumental in creating & sustaining life- so yes; it is clear that celestial superpowers are involved in life...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"you claim a cell does not have consciousness so you reject the possibility that consciousness is the ultimate characteristic of "god"..."

j_y,

You are making erroneous extrapolations. Consciousness is a human trait that is tied up with our unique ability to reason and not go by instinct as do lower animals.
I reject the concept of a god, higher power whatever name you choose for the supernatural so the consciousness of a non-existant being is a non-starter</div></div>

why is consciousness a human trait?
are you telling me that animals do not have consciousness?
are you saying that humans do not have instincts?
so how is it possible to train them to do things as well as communicate with them?

you claim humans & animals are from the same ancestor but cut them off at consciousness?
you almost make an argument for the existence of a higher consciousness--- whatever you may call it

**jah_yout** · 10-06-2011, 09:11 AM

Re: Basics of Evolution 101

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">as far as I or anyone else who is rational would care, this query makes no sense. are you trying to create an argument of scale AND wonder, as if to say we humans are just puny creatures who should be on their knees because thor rolls through the heavens in his chariot and our crops get watered? it's cute, but i don't see it as anything but a hallmark card pat on the back triteness.</div></div>

the usual intellectual dishonesty from you...
i suggested nothing of the sort...
but close-minded people who have never been out of this immediate galaxy claim to have knowledge of everything....
it simply is impossible to reason with those who think they already have it all figured out;

i have yet to see scientists grow a heart, but if they do it is different from creating a living-tissue heart from non-living matter....
yet you claim random unconscious unintelligent forces "created" or "formed" the heart to begin with...

i doubt we will ever see eye to eye on these subjects

**johnnycakes** · 10-06-2011, 04:40 PM

Re: Basics of Evolution 101

"kudos- you have solved the mystery of life where all else have failed'

j_y,
That was a valid scientific explanation of abiogenesis that was shown in the video and which was explained in terms anyone can understand if they want to understand.
The science was not there in years and the millennia past to explain how life arises from non-life.
This is no different from Galileo and others being punished for discovering that the Earth revolves around the sun and not vice versa as enforced by the church of that time.

You are putting yourself in the same position as the church by denying scientific proof in order to hold onto prior beliefs unsupported by fact.

-" i expect to see that create an organism from scratch/ non-life'

How totally disingenuous, how intellectually fraudulent a statement .
After biogenesis came hundreds of millions of years of evolution which (so far) humans cannot replicate in the lab and you know or should know that..

"why is consciousness a human trait?
are you telling me that animals do not have consciousness?

Because no animals have displayed consciousness. yes they are sentient, they feel things but so far, all we know is that they run completely on instinct and not in any way by reasoning which is central to consciousness.

"are you saying that humans do not have instincts?
so how is it possible to train them to do things as well as communicate with them?'

I do not preclude certain instincts in humans but training and communications are centered around our unique ability among animals to reason.

"you claim humans & animals are from the same ancestor but cut them off at consciousness?"

Absolutely and positively. Are you sure you are not conflating sentience with consciousness?

"you almost make an argument for the existence of a higher consciousness--- whatever you may call it'

If there is a higher consciousness or higher intelligence its origin, whether physical or non-corporeal will be extra planetary and not supernatural. IMO
I have always felt that we are not alone in the universe as far as intelligence goes but the vast reaches of time and space keep us from meeting up with that intelligence.

Basics of Evolution 101

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