Mutabaruka - Cutting Edge: Interactive Bible Study with Dr. Ray Hagins

**Tropicana** · 08-16-2013, 06:31 PM

The Rapture - He is going to claim the Bible teaches the rapture (pre-tribulation) is not going to happen by citing the following verses which refer to the end of time....just before Judgement Day.

Matthew 24:29-30

English Standard Version (ESV)

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heavenwith power and great glory.

Matthew 24:29-30

King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:29-30

1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

29 And immediately after the tribulations of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

30 And then shall appear the [d]sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the[e]kindreds of the earth [f]mourn, and they shall see the Son of man [g]come in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:29-30

Wycliffe Bible (WYC)

29 And at once [Forsooth anon] after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be made dark, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the virtues of heavens shall be moved [and the virtues of heavens shall be stirred].

30 And then the token of man's Son shall appear in heaven, and then all the kindreds of the earth shall wail [and then all the kindreds, or lineages, of the earth shall wail]; and they shall see man's Son coming in the clouds of heaven, with much virtue and majesty.

He will neglect to mention that these are not the ONLY verses referring to the rapture and he fails to cite the following verses which refer to the pre-tribulation rapture:

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18

English Standard Version (ESV)

14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,[a] that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. Andthe dead in Christ will rise first.17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18

King James Version (KJV)

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18

1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

14 For if we believe that Jesus is dead, and is risen, even so them which sleep in Jesus, will God bring with him.
15 For this say we unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which live, and are remaining in the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them which sleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, and with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then shall we which live and remain, be caught up with them also in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore, comfort yourselves one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18

Wycliffe Bible (WYC)

14 For if we believe, that Jesus was dead, and rose again, so God shall lead with him them that be dead by Jesus [so and God shall lead with him them that slept, or died, by Jesus].
15 And we say this thing to you in the word of the Lord, that we that live, that be left in the coming of the Lord, shall not come before them that be dead. [Soothly this thing we say to you in the word of the Lord, that we that live, that be residue, or left, in the coming of the Lord, shall not come before them that slept, or died.]
16 For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven, in the commandment, and in the voice of an archangel [in the commanding, and in the voice of the archangel], and in the trump of God; and the dead men that be in Christ, shall rise again first.
17 Afterward we that live, that be left, shall be snatched (up) together with them in clouds, meeting Christ in the air; and so evermore we shall be with the Lord.

18 Therefore be ye comforted together in these words. [Therefore comfort ye together in these words.]

**Tropicana** · 08-16-2013, 06:31 PM

Re: this generation shall not pass, Dr. Hagin will claim that the Bible is not accurate as it claims that the people who are alive listening to Jesus would not see their generation pass before his return. This is not accurate.

He is referring to the people who are alive and present at the time these events take place in the future (i.e. the abomination of desolation, t the tribulation, etc. The passage is NOT referring to the people who are alive and listening to Jesus speaking in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:32-34

English Standard Version (ESV)

32 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near.33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates.34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Matthew 24:32-34

King James Version (KJV)

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Matthew 24:32-34

1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

32 [a]Now learn the parable of the fig tree: when her bough is yet [b]tender, and it putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near.
33 So likewise ye, when ye see all these things, know that the kingdom of God is near, evenat the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, this [c]generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Matthew 24:32-34

Wycliffe Bible (WYC)

32 And learn ye the parable of the fig tree. When his branch is now tender, and the leaves be sprung, ye know that summer is nigh;
33 so and ye when ye shall see all these things [so also when ye shall see all these things], know ye that it is nigh, in the gates.

34 Truly I say to you, for this generation shall not pass, till all things be done;

**Tropicana** · 08-16-2013, 06:32 PM

Ashkenazi Jews.

According to the scriptures, the

Jewish people originated from Semitic tribes that lived in the Middle East approximately 4,000 years ago. . In 587 B.C.E., after the defeat of the Judean kingdom, the Jews were dispersed and exiled into Babylonia and other areas. Recent population studies using genetic markers, however, support the common Middle Eastern origin of the Jews.

Archaeological evidence concerning the presence of the descendants of Abraham in ancient Egypt can be found here:

ISRAELITES IN EGYPT - Is there evidence that the Israelites once lived in Egypt as the Bible says? And has Joseph's original tomb been found? - ChristianAnswers.Net

http://christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a027.html

Archaeological answers about the presence of Hebrews in ancient Egypt

The Bible tells us that when Jacob and his family migrated from Asia toEgypt, they were settled in "the land ofRameses" and that they became property owners there (Genesis 47:11, 27). Eventually, the Israelites were used asslave laborers to build the city of Rameses (Exodus 1:11), and when they left after 430 years (Exodus 12:40), they departed from Rameses (Exodus 12:37). From these references, we can conclude that theIsraelites spent the years of the Egyptian Sojourn in and around Rameses.

The name Rameses actually comes from a later period than the Israelite Sojourn. It was the name given to a city built by Rameses the Great (Rameses II) in the eastern Nile Delta in the 13th century BC. This more familiar name was then used retrospectively by later scribes when copying the Biblical texts.

This is similar to when historians are referring to the history of Jamaica, the USA or Canada and they use the names by which they are now known.

Although the location of Rameses was in dispute for some years, that dispute has now been settled. We not only know where Rameses was located, but we know much about the history of the ancient site.

Since 1966, extensive excavations have been undertaken there under the direction of Manfred Bietak of the Austrian Archaeological Institute, Cairo (for previous reports, see Shea 1990: 100-103; Wood 1991: 104-106; Aling 1996: 20-21). It is possible that Prof. Bietak may have, for the first time, found physical evidence for the presence of the Israelites in Egypt.

Ancient Rameses is located at Tell el-Daba in the eastern Delta, approximately 100 km northeast of Cairo. In antiquity, the Pelusiac branch of the Nile flowed past the site, giving access to the Mediterranean. In addition, the town lay on the land route to Canaan, the famous Horus Road. Thus, it was an important commercial and military center.

Now there arose a new king over Egypt, who did not know Joseph. —Exodus 1:8

We can divide the history of the site into three periods: pre-Hyksos, Hyksos and post- Hyksos. The Hyksos were a Semitic people from Syria-Palestine, who took up residence in the eastern Nile Delta and eventually ruled northern Egypt for some 108 years, ca. 1663-1555 BC (15th Dynasty).[1]Jacob and his family arrived in Egypt around 1880 BC, based on an Exodus date of ca. 1450 BC. That was in the pre-Hyksos period when the name of the town was Rowaty, "the door of the two roads" (Bietak 1996: 9,19). [2]

Much more here: http://christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a027.html

The converted Jews who came from the Caucasus Mountains came much later and they are not related to the ancient people who were enslaved in Egypt.

..the Khazars, a people of Turkic origin, converted to the Jewish religion sometime in the 9th century, beginning with the royal house and spreading gradually among the general populace. Judaism is now known to have been more widespread among the Khazar inhabitants of the Khazar kingdom than was previously thought. In 1999, Russian archaeologists announced that they had successfully reconstructed a Khazarian vessel from the Don River region, revealing 4 inscriptions of the word "Israel" in Hebrew lettering. It is now the accepted opinion among most scholars in the field that the conversion of the Khazars to Judaism was widespread, and not limited merely to the royal house and nobility. Ibn al-Faqih, in fact, wrote "All of the Khazars are Jews."

Source: http://www.palestineremembered.com/A.../Story800.html

More here: http://www.apfn.org/thewinds/library/khazars.html

**Tropicana** · 08-16-2013, 06:32 PM

Compare: Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:23 - He is going to claim there is a contradiction and that the passage in Matthew does not use the word Emmanuel.

Compare and judge for yourself.

Isaiah 7:14
English Standard Version (ESV)

14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matthew 1:23

English Standard Version (ESV)

23 “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son,and they shall call his name Immanuel”

Isaiah 7:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matthew 1:23

King James Version (KJV)

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Isaiah 7:14
1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.

Matthew 1:23
1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which is by interpretation, God with us.

Isaiah 7:14
1380 Wycliffe Bible (WYC)

14 For this thing the Lord himself shall give a sign to you. Lo! a virgin shall conceive, and shall bear a son; and his name shall be called Immanuel.

Matthew 1:23

Wycliffe Bible (WYC)

23 Lo! a virgin shall have in [the] womb, and she shall bear a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, that is to say [that is interpreted], God with us.

Question: "Is 'virgin' or 'young woman' the correct translation of Isaiah 7:14?"

Answer:Isaiah 7:14reads, "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel." QuotingIsaiah 7:14,Matthew 1:23reads, "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel - which means, 'God with us.'" Christians point to this "virgin birth" as evidence of Messianic prophecy fulfilled by Jesus. Is this a valid example of fulfilled prophecy? IsIsaiah 7:14predicting the virgin birth of Jesus? Is "virgin" even the proper translation of the Hebrew word used inIsaiah 7:14?

The Hebrew word inIsaiah 7:14is "almah," and its inherent meaning is "young woman." "Almah" can mean "virgin," as young unmarried women in ancient Hebrew culture were assumed to be virgins. Again, though, the word does not necessarily imply virginity. "Almah" occurs seven times in the Hebrew Scriptures (Genesis 24:43;Exodus 2:8;Psalm 68:25;Proverbs 30:19;Song of Solomon 1:3;6:8;Isaiah 7:14). None of these instances demands the meaning "virgin," but neither do they deny the possible meaning of "virgin." There is no conclusive argument for "almah" inIsaiah 7:14being either "young woman" or "virgin." However, it is interesting to note, that in the 3rd century B.C., when a panel of Hebrew scholars and Jewish rabbis began the process of translating the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek, they used the specific Greek word for virgin, "parthenos," not the more generic Greek word for "young woman." The Septuagint translators, 200+ years before the birth of Christ, and with no inherent belief in a "virgin birth," translated "almah" inIsaiah 7:14as "virgin," not "young woman." This gives evidence that "virgin" is a possible, even likely, meaning of the term.

With all that said, even if the meaning "virgin" is ascribed to "almah" inIsaiah 7:14, does that makeIsaiah 7:14 aMessianic prophecy about Jesus, asMatthew 1:23claims? In the context of Isaiah chapter 7, the Aramites and Israelites were seeking to conquer Jerusalem, and King Ahaz was fearful. The Prophet Isaiah approaches King Ahaz and declares that Aram and Israel would not be successful in conquering Jerusalem (verses 7-9). The Lord offers Ahaz the opportunity to receive a sign (verse 10), but Ahaz refuses to put God to the test (verse 11). God responds by giving the sign Ahaz should look for, "the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son...but before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste." In this prophecy, God is essentially saying that within a few years' time, Israel and Aram will be destroyed. At first glace,Isaiah 7:14has no connection with a promised virgin birth of the Messiah. However, the Apostle Matthew, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, connects the virgin birth of Jesus (Matthew 1:23) with the prophecy inIsaiah 7:14. Therefore,Isaiah 7:14should be understood as being a "double prophecy," referring primarily to the situation King Ahaz was facing, but secondarily to the coming Messiah who would be the ultimate deliverer.

Read more:http://www.gotquestions.org/virgin-o...#ixzz2cB6ffL84

**Tropicana** · 08-16-2013, 06:33 PM

Save for Galations 4: 22 - 24 - soon come

Dr. Hagin will claim Abraham, Jacob etc. didn't exist and that Galations 4: 24 says that what we read is an allegory. The passage is saying that we can take additional lessons from these experiences. It does not say that the Abraham, Sarah and Hagar were made up and did not exist.

The Bible has many instances in which more than one level of meaning or one set of lessons can be taken for the same passage or experience.

Example: Christ is compared to the bridgeroom and the church to the bride

Also consider the parallels Christ draws between the experience of Jonah in the big fish and his future death burial and resurrection.

Galatians 4:22-23

English Standard Version (ESV)

22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman.23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar.

Galatians 4:22-24

English Standard Version (ESV)

22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman.23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise.

24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar.

Galatians 4:22-24

King James Version (KJV)

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Galatians 4:22-24

1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, one by a servant, and one by a free woman.
23 But he which was of the servant, was born after the [a]flesh: and he which was of the free woman, was born by [b]promise.

24 By the which things another thing is meant: for [c]these mothers are the [d]two Testaments, the one which is Hagar of mount [e]Sinai, which gendereth unto bondage.

Galatians 4:22-24

Wycliffe Bible (WYC)

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, one of a servant, and one of a free woman [one of the handmaiden, and one of the free wife].
23 But he that was of the servant, was born after the flesh; but he that was of the free woman, by a promise.

24 The which things be said by another understanding. For these be two testaments; one in the hill of Sinai, engendering into servage, which is Agar.

**Tropicana** · 08-16-2013, 07:13 PM

Verses

Deuteronomy 7:6

English Standard Version (ESV)

6 “For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

Deuteronomy 7:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Deuteronomy 7:6

1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, the Lord thy God hath chosen thee, to be a precious people unto himself, above all people that are upon the earth.

Deuteronomy 7:6

Wycliffe Bible (WYC)

6 For thou art an holy people to thy Lord God; thy Lord God chose thee, that thou be a special people to him, of all peoples that be on earth. (For thou art a holy people to the Lord thy God; the Lord thy God chose thee to be his special people, out of all the peoples that be on the earth.)

**Tropicana** · 08-16-2013, 07:16 PM

Okay, here is the Dialogue Between Mutabaruka and Dr. Ray Hagins:

**Emperah** · 08-16-2013, 08:05 PM

guess yuh miss seh mi poas di vid to uchube b4 dis guy dwl

it inna de muzik forum

**Tropicana** · 08-16-2013, 08:13 PM

No I didn't see it in the music forum. I saw your tape on-line but you were missing the first part of it. Remember energy.co cut over to the programme late

so your recording only started from the point when we started listening to it.

pon energy.co.

Can you edit it and patch in the rest? Happy to swap out your version for this one.

**Emperah** · 08-16-2013, 08:15 PM

cyaan badda it nuh dat important yuh I

**Tropicana** · 08-16-2013, 08:19 PM

I'm taking my time and listening to it again..I am about 40% of the way through...head tired

... mi wi ave fe continue when mi head clear...

**Emperah** · 08-16-2013, 10:07 PM

yuh nuh seh barely anybody goin come deal wid dis poas right?
Mi nuh kno why yuh love waste yuh time suh much

**Tropicana** · 08-16-2013, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by Emperah View Post

yuh nuh seh barely anybody goin come deal wid dis poas right?
Mi nuh kno why yuh love waste yuh time suh much

Come come now, If you REALLY thought it was a waste of time, you wouldn't have bothered posting the video now would you.

Why are you always so depressing and pessimistic?

PLENTY will read it...few will comment. You and I are the only ones commenting but there have been 84 views so far and it is just hours since it was posted. I hope CEW stops by.

**Emperah** · 08-16-2013, 10:57 PM

mi nah nuh time fi read all adat deh miself.
I didn't post it for ppl pan de board. I made it fi de PJ group an den decide fi poas it yasuh as well.
All jesus couldan stap by an mi still nah nuh time fi dis

Mutabaruka - Cutting Edge: Interactive Bible Study with Dr. Ray Hagins

Mutabaruka - Cutting Edge: Interactive Bible Study with Dr. Ray Hagins

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

ads