Patois and Parenting Argument - Again

[Tropicana]

We have just touched on this in other threads from time to time and I guess it's time for deeper evaluation.

In Toronto, many children of Jamaican parentage had problems in the school system as they only spoke patois. The teachers couldn't understand them. The children had a hard time in school and a lot of children were shoved into dead end programmes (Basic adn Vocational) and never got to complete the regular high school programme...permanently behind the 8th ball on the job market after that.

So, they started English as a Second Dialect classes in Ontario. Not sure if they still have them.

When I saw that this had happened, I realized the importance of children mastering standard English. So much so that when my ex spoke to the baby in patois I absolutely freaked. HUGE argument but I won that one.

The drop out rate for children of Jamaican parentage was extremely high in Toronto at one point because of the difficulties the children had in the school system. I am not sure what it is now. When I saw all the problems the children were having (and language was just part of it there was a lot of racism...and tension between the races..... still is) I sacrificed and sent my son to private school. I wish I knew where to put my fingers on the documents with all the stats. What I have somewhere pre-dates the Internet.

So, if there is no harm in children who are going to be migrating or children who are born in Canada speaking just patois, how come so many young people had problems?

[missus_vegas]

Only speaking patwah is definately a problem.

Speaking patwah at home and teaching it to your child, is different than them not learning enlish. I do not understand how its possible for the kids to not know any english.

[Tropicana]

Trust me...it was a HUGE problem here...Not sure if the documentation and all the reports that were done on the streaming of Jamaican children and shoving them into dead end programmes ever made it to the net.

[missus_vegas]

Trust me...it was a HUGE problem here...Not sure if the documentation and all the reports that were done on the streaming of Jamaican children and shoving them into dead end programmes ever made it to the net.

so did the Asian, African and non English speaking European children has this issue?

[Tropicana]

so did the Asian, African and non English speaking European children has this issue?

Before the influx of Jamaican immigrants, the schools had English as a Second Language programmes. The goal was to help children master English as quickly as possible so that they could continue the regular school programme.

When the schools suddenly had a lot of Jamaican children who spoke only patois, they were totally unprepared. At one point the drop out rate for Black children (the majority were Jamaican) was well over 50%. Not sure what it is now.

Eventually the English as a Second Dialect programme (ESL/D) was brought in. Not sure where to find documentation on-line...not sure if documentation ever made it to the Internet. I am definitely not going to turn the house upside down for old reports and type them. If I find anything online, I will post it.

[Tropicana]

Okay this is documentation from 2008 when the drop out rate was 40%...just want to show that this has been a huge problem I am not making this up. Problem was so severe there was talk of an Afro-centric school. Not sure if this was ever established.

Cut black dropout rate to 15%, schools told

Canada's largest school board is poised to set tough targets to chop the alarming 40 per cent dropout rate among black students to 15 per cent within five years.


Canada's largest school board is poised to set tough targets to chop the alarming 40 per cent dropout rate among black students to 15 per cent within five years.Through mentors, teacher training and close tracking of the most needy students, the Toronto District School Board's sweeping new Urban Diversity Strategy – to be voted on tomorrow by a board committee and by all trustees next week – would aim to make all intermediate and high schools across the city more sensitive to the demographic roadblocks often facing students of differing backgrounds.

The action plan would also target the 25 most racially diverse, low-performing schools for extra youth workers, outreach staff to work with parents, summer programs for Grade 8 students who fail any of the 3 Rs, and a network of teachers who feel passionate about working in such challenging schools.

"We know this is not going to be an easy task, but with the data we now know about our students, and with what we see is working already at some schools – plus a little bit of pressure – we know it can be done," said Gerry Connelly, the board's director of education, in an interview yesterday.The report is one of the ways the board is responding to new data showing children from poor or turbulent backgrounds or marginalized communities often lag behind.

While trustees voted to open an Africentric alternative school in September 2009 as a sort of test lab for a more global curriculum and more black teachers as role models, the board also charged staff to come up with ways to help children at risk in all schools.

But instead of recommending special programs tailored for children of various high-risk groups – Portuguese children, for example, or those from Somalia or Afghanistan – the staff suggests helping all teachers be more sensitive to the challenges diversity can bring.

"This approach won't ignore the role of race, or gender, or poverty, or disability; these are all part of students' reality," said Lloyd McKell, the board's executive officer of student and community equity, who consulted with many community groups while helping draft the plan.

"But our training will help teachers recognize the effect racial diversity has on students' lives." Among other recommendations:

Chop the overall dropout rate by 5 per cent in each of the next five years.

While Connelly would not put a price tag on the extra support, she said much can be covered by using existing funding in a more strategic way, and noted the board will also seek some funding from Queen's Park. Sandra Carnegie-Douglas, past-president of the Jamaican-Canadian Association, called the plan "a good start" but warned it is crucial to choose staff mentors that truly care about children, not just track their attendance.

"Not all staff is that attentive to the barriers many students face, so how will you choose `an adult who cares?' The community should have some input," she said. Education Professor Patrick Solomon, who founded the Urban Diversity program at York University, hailed the plan to train teachers to be more sensitive to the community, a process he said is best done by having teachers design community projects in the neighbourhoods where they work.

http://www.thestar.com/life/parent/2008/06/18/cut_black_dropout_rate_to_15_schools_told.html

[missus_vegas]

i still cant wrap my head around the not understanding English part.

I wonder if these would have been the same kids that would have failed in the jamaican skool system as well, where they had teachers who understand patwah.
sometimes it comes down to parenting, financial status, social status etc etc.

i think its very unlikely that these children come from a home where mom/dad help them with homework and or got them some tutoring if dem see the child was lacking in an area.

[Tropicana]

Some background:

To illustrate, TDSB (Toronto District School Board) statistics showed that during the 1970s and 1980s a large percentage of black students were placed in courses that did not prepare them for university (Brown, 2005).
Similarly Caribbean born youth were less likely to enter into college or university than Canadian
born youth (Mata, 1989).

Instead black students were often categorized as students with special
education needs, or placed in behaviour classes rather than gifted programs. During these
decades James and Brathwaite (1996) state that research “showed that Black students were
second to Aboriginals in being most highly represented in basic level programmes of study” (p.
16).

For example, Larter, Cheng, Capps, & Lee (1982) share that when using a group of grade
eight students it was “found that Black and Caribbean students were the only groups who rated
education as the most important to them; however, these were the two groups with the largest
percentage (35% Blacks and 19% Caribbean) in special education classes” (as cited in James &
Brathwaite, 1996, p. 17). These difficulties continued into the 90’s with alarming drop-out rates
reported for black students (Dei et al., 1997).

The TDSB released consistent statistics in the school year of 2001/2002 “which showed that 54 percent of students born in the English speaking Caribbean had 14 credits or fewer at the end of Grade 10 (Students should have 16 credits at this point in their academic careers)” (as cited in Kalinowski & Brown, 2005, par.27).


Prior research has pointed to many ways in which such disengagement can be addressed
(e.g., choice, performance contract, cooperative learning, and cultural resp

http://www.umanitoba.ca/publications/cjeap/pdf_files/gordon_zinga.pdf

[missus_vegas]

i think much of that may have been racially and socially charged as ooposed to the kids not knowing english

[twiney]

i think much of that may have been racially and socially charged as ooposed to the kids not knowing english

Yep.

[Tropicana]

i think much of that may have been racially and socially charged as ooposed to the kids not knowing english

Definitely there were significant racial issues but the language thing was huge. I am just sorry that I can't pull up articles form the 1970s and 1980s that discussed this at length.

i still cant wrap my head around the not understanding English part.

Well this is fact not conjecture.

I wonder if these would have been the same kids that would have failed in the jamaican skool system as well, where they had teachers who understand patwah.
sometimes it comes down to parenting, financial status, social status etc etc.

We are talking a dropout rate of over 50%....not one or 2 pickney. I can make a comparison in a second that will address this.

i think its very unlikely that these children come from a home where mom/dad help them with homework and or got them some tutoring if dem see the child was lacking in an area.

Parents were mostly single parents who had left children with grandparents in Jamaica and they were re-united later. Some children were 8,9,10, 11 or even older when they got here. Parents were working long hours at low paying jobs and were in many instances not that educated. They felt the school system had the interests of their children at heart.....and trusted the White teachers....boy they were wrong. Don't even get me started on the parenting deficiencies. That was a HUGE gap but a lot of what I know I am not at liberty to repeat. I will give you a comparison in a second.

[Tropicana]

Comparison

One family, 2 sisters. Both single parents with a number of children.

Sister A - Stayed in Jamaica

Her children all completed school. 1 high school, 1 university and others vocational. Only 1 child got in trouble once but he learned from that. ALL children gainfully employed. One very successful living in the USA. One has his own business. Another very successful worked for a Jamaican company until he retired early.

Sister B - Migrated to Canada

Oldest child completed her education in Jamaica before migrating and has done well. Of the children educated in Canada (2 had all their schooling in Canada), 1 has been in and out of jail, the other on welfare for years. The other one holding his own had half his education in Canada and half in Jamaica.

I can identify any number of families that fit this profile.

[missus_vegas]

Parents were mostly single parents who had left children with grandparents in Jamaica and they were re-united later. Some children were 8,9,10, 11 or even older when they got here. Parents were working long hours at low paying jobs and were in many instances not that educated. They felt the school system had the interests of their children at heart.....and trusted the White teachers....boy they were wrong. Don't even get me started on the parenting deficiencies. That was a HUGE gap but a lot of what I know I am not at liberty to repeat. I will give you a comparison in a second. [/FONT]

this here i think was the real problem.

[Tropicana]

There is plenty of blame to go around believe you me....but the problem with language was definitely a major issue.

FOund something else.

Despite the value black Canadian families place on education, research since the 1970shas shown that black Torontonian youth struggle to excel in Canadian education as they do not
choose the courses or accumulate the credits needed to pursue postsecondary studies (Moitt,
1996). These struggles have been well documented in scholarly literature. Beginning in the
1960’s, Canada saw a large number of blacks immigrating to Canada from the Caribbean (Foster,
1996). In the 1970s, Canadian school boards and other independent researchers began to
recognize that African Canadian students, particularly those with Caribbean heritage, were
having difficulties at school (James & Brathwaite, 1996).

[Blackstar*]

Sometimes, adults are the ones who limit children. It is so beneficial for children to learn more than one language. Studies show that being bilingual improves thought processes and other intellectual capacities because different parts of the brain are used to manage the languages. You can speak patois at home and the child speaks standard English everywhere else. All of my Anglo friends here in France raise their children to be French-English bilingual. One woman I know has a nine-year old who is fluent in English, French, & Spanish.