Letter From Christian Guys...

[acceptedtoday]

Re: Letter From Christian Guys...

Monk

Like I said to Mutty some time ago there is no "Christian" God.

If you want to make a distinction between other faiths and Christianity go right ahead.

But GOD, is GOD, of all peoples, even those who reject him.

Christianity does make the case that there is One way, one truth and one life and that way to God is through Jesus.

This is the Gospel that must be preached to the whole world before the end comes. i.e the redemptive work of Jesus.
However the knowledge of God is part of mans make up, he was made to have a relationship with God and that too is hardwired into his system.

Like CEW said earlier of GOD's nature, God is a just God and seemingly have made preparations for those who never heard of Jesus while alive in his Millennium Kingdom.

This is still a revelation event to be fulfilled, but we do believe from scripture there is a second chance to those unborn or aborted babies and those who never heard the Gospel message to live a thousand years with Christ without the influence of the adversary to tempt them to sin.

Then they too will get a chance to be tested.
Those who vie for sin will then be judged as everyone else is judged.

[rudemonk]

Re: Letter From Christian Guys...

I am granting you all that, in a way. It's very Catholic of you to say there is no "Christian" God. But I owuld bet that if we really sank our teeth into it, your proofs would mostly be Christian? Anyway I am not the one making distinctions- you may have noticed I usually speak from many perspectives. I do find it curious though, that if there is no Christian God, well I for one would love to see you present information from the Upanishads, Quran, non canonical texts, Wakantanka, etc...I don't think you are saying Krishna = Jesus, for example...but maybe I am wrong...?

BUT- there is one problem in all that you just presented. You have said that in your conception of God there is a Hell, and Hell has a lord. I see this as a necessary part of the story which trains the mind in dualities which must then be demolished but I don't think this is a common conception, so to me there has to be a heaven and hell at first, but not for the reasons mostpeople probably think they are there for. I already know there was no such thing as a Garden of Eden or Adam and Eve so this is an easy leap for me.

But most Christians don't see this as the purpose of their faith- to smash dualities. Would you agree with that or disagree?

Or isn't there a hell?

There is a Devil? Or isn't there.

If you say yes to either, then God is no longer Just, or Moral, he is no longer omniscient, certainly no longer omnipotent, and definitely not omnibenevelont. He is sadistic- leaving us to our own devices against an adversary who far outmatches us- after all, as an angel, Satan does not lack knowledge of God or the game we are playing whereas God has given us, at best fuzzy info, if at all, depending on who you are born to and where.

I would argue from most standard conceptions of God, he is not worthy of worship simply on the basis of the fact that as it is laid out, his love is conditional.

Personally, IF there is a God, then to me if he is worthy of love and worship, then there can not be a Devil or a physical Hell where the worm dyeth not...

Here I think the Apocalypse of Peter was rather interesting, and it is no wonder it was excluded from Canon.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: accepted2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Monk


Christianity does make the case that there is One way, one truth and one life and that way to God is through Jesus.

This is the Gospel that must be preached to the whole world before the end comes. i.e the redemptive work of Jesus.
However the knowledge of God is part of mans make up, he was made to have a relationship with God and that too is hardwired into his system.

Like CEW said earlier of GOD's nature, God is a just God and seemingly have made preparations for those who never heard of Jesus while alive in his Millennium Kingdom.
</div></div>

Well, if God has it all under control, why bother proselytizing. He already has arrangements and everything is going according to plan. Why all the door knocking.

But until such time...? Let them be victimized under the powers of the Devil? Is God omniscient. Yes? So he already knows the outcomes. This goes back to what I always say, as an analogy- you would never let your child touch a burning stove. God already knows Adam and Eve will make the wrong choice. He knows he made them susceptible to that which he did not bother to prepare them for. Remember, he never warned Eve about his unkempt house.

But, generally speaking, our minds have been trained to accept a far lower standard of God's responsibility in order to make a sadistic floppery of a salvation model make sense.

A salvation model, I would like to point out, which Yashua never spoke about, and in fact on several occasions openly flauts.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yashua</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
"Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
</div></div>

Did someone forget to tell Paul.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: accepted2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Then they too will get a chance to be tested.
</div></div>

No thanks.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Those who vie for sin will then be judged as everyone else is judged. </div></div>

Seems to me like this God character needs to be judged. Maybe then some deeper conceptions can take root.

[acceptedtoday]

Re: Letter From Christian Guys...

Monk,

You and I both know that to pursue this this is a disscussion that leads nowhere.

Whatever reason i would bring to this debate you would for argument sake try to refute it 'ad nauseum'.

That you don't believe in God, Christian or otherwise means you reason from a position of no rules.

I must follow the rules laid down by scripture for to pretend that my knowledge is an authority that settles any position is arrogant in the least and idiotic at best.

Selah.

[Compry]

Re: Letter From Christian Guys...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: accepted2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I must follow the rules laid down by scripture for to pretend that my knowledge is an authority that settles any position is arrogant in the least and idiotic at best.

Selah. </div></div>

[img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img] Respect.

[rudemonk]

Re: Letter From Christian Guys...

actually I would consider it an opportunity to expand our respective beliefs, and when a valid point is made I have no problem accepting it. I am just waiting for some.

I do not discuss these matters for the sake of argument. If I were, you would be able to poke holes in my positions all day long since argument for argument's sake is the weakest of all positions. However, I do feel like mostly my points are ill addressed, when addressed at all.

Nobody yet can come to the defense of the poor snake? How does cursing the snake prove God's justice and mercy.

I'd also like to respectfully take exception to the statement that I argue from a position of "no rules."

I am curious to know what rules you are choosing to argue from and why you feel that only believers have rules from which to present valid arguments.

The thing is, you DO possess- and let me say here, a God GIVEN intellect and a reason- If there is a God then he made you to be this way gave you a mind and logic is a natural progression of that mind's development, as are ALL of our efforts to increase knowledge and understanding, he did not make you a simpleton incapable of understanding his works or motivations.

For example- there are certain things we know, and we know them absolutely as a matter of fact. Where these facts are not in accordance with scripture, then scripture must be wrong. If we know for a fact 2+2 = 4, and scripture claims 5 as the answer, then it is safe to conclude scripture must be in error- which is only reasonable to conclude since it is a product of its times and manufactured mostly out of ignorance in certain matters. But for some reason instead of recognizing these faults and adjusting accordingly the defense of scripture is we are too stupid or small of mind to comprehend God.

That makes no sense!

[Diplomat]

Re: Letter From Christian Guys...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">actually I would consider it an opportunity to expand our respective beliefs, and when a valid point is made I have no problem accepting it. I am just waiting for some.

I do not discuss these matters for the sake of argument. If I were, you would be able to poke holes in my positions all day long since argument for argument's sake is the weakest of all positions. However, I do feel like mostly my points are ill addressed, when addressed at all.</div></div>
Been busy with a bunch of stuff, but have been following this discussion when I can. If the above summarizes your thoughts, then that is good, because I get the sense that the tone of your arguments over the last little while seem to have moved from moderation to one that is more of a fundamentalist unbeliever. Of course, I stand to be corrected on that. I agree with Accepted's last response though. As is the case with even fundamentalist believers, there is a point when nothing outside of black and white is good enough, and unfortunately, there are things in the Scriptures where "I don't know" is the best that can be offered from our limited perspective. That may account for what you perceive as your points being ill addressed. How can anyone adequately explain the mind of God to anyone's satisfaction? We can't, and in some places, we offer an opinion (hopefully informed) or consult the opinions of others who have spent their lives studying the subject. From here, "I don't know" doesn't mean that thing is illogical or unbelievable as you contend. How we approach those grey areas is greatly influenced by our world views, and the rules that accompany those views. This is no different than in any other discipline.

[rudemonk]

Re: Letter From Christian Guys...

I think that is confusing CEW.

On one hand, people present their various scriptures as a way to know the mind of God. I mean, some very important things are claimed on God's behalf and people are hevaily invested in these claims being true. So in a sense, they claim they know the mind of God. Scripture is clear. And yet, also quite clearly, those claims which are based on scripture are not always making a lot of sense when taken as a whole especially.

So when it becomes troublesome and difficult questions are unanswerable without resort to other knowledge, when things no longer make much sense- rather than look elsewhere for clarification or even dare I say some much needed editing, we are to shrug our shoulders and throw our hands up?

Some religious systems have a pressure valve shall we say, but I think the more and more this pressure valve needs opening, the shakier and shakier some fundamental beliefs will come to be in question.

I think this is only natural, and if God did create us, then he gave us these gifts of intellect to use. He can't blame us for being smart and for trying to figure things out and drawing conclusions from what he is allowing us to see of his plans.