WELCOME...*MONK*...F&R Summer Feature Presentation!

[ackeepod]

Re: WELCOME...*MONK*...F&R Summer Feature Presentation!

this conversation is facinating. If I were interested in learning more,what would you suggest for reading material and are there group meetings? I live in the Toronto area


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Compray</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> But no, in the end while it is crystal clear to me that there are indeed agents of evil and those who exercise this agency, to me it does not speak to a Devil, and I think the fact that there is such evil is rather damning evidence against a God.
</div></div>

Monk bear with me as I really trying to follow you and understand more about Buddhism.

Are you saying that by rejecting the existence of the devil that also automatically rejects the existence of God? </div></div>

[rudemonk]

Re: WELCOME...*MONK*...F&amp;R Summer Feature Presentation!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: haki</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this conversation is facinating. If I were interested in learning more,what would you suggest for reading material and are there group meetings? I live in the Toronto area

</div></div>

well, there are definitely some good books out there as more and more monastics become what is called 'engaged' and get some work out there.

first and foremost I highly highly highly recommend picking up any one of several Joseph Campbell books, anyone interested in human spirituality needs to be fluent in this man's pioneering works. It's utterly fascinating and serves to put a frame of reference to the subject matter.

regarding Buddhism, I think a great book is Siddartha by Hernan Hesse. While it is not a biography per se, it is fiction, I think Hesse really opens some doors.

Also, Zen Flesh Zen Bones is a good start up book- it's a compilation of many writings. There are of course plenty of really great sutras etc, but these can get a little muddy and esoteric if you just jump into them. But the Buddha's teachings are really quite clear.

Another name to look for is Thich Nhat Han, he has tons of books, most of them are basically variations of the same material so you can pick one or two and you will catch the drift of this great master. Interestingly, he and a Catholic monk struck up a friendship that is really quite a special thing to come to learn about. The Catholic monk's name is Thomas Merton, also an author.

As far as meetings or groups, I have to imagine that with the soaring popularity of Zen, there must be a center or meditation group in your area. They can get a little new agey and a little hokey, depending.

[DC]

Re: WELCOME...*MONK*...F&amp;R Summer Feature Presentation!

Quite interesting monk..
I recall us having a conversation on Buddhism some time ago and making comparisons with Christianity. We did not get this far, so it was intersting to read some new things. Clearly, religions are very similar in their structure and I am sure many organized religions can attest to sects within a religion, misinterpretation of the core teachings, ‘added’ teachings etc.

1. Do you think you have a grasp of the more authentic Buddhism? This question is based on your statement of rejecting certain teachings of Buddhism.

2. So the Ch’an story is akin to ‘parables’, ie, illustrative teachings of the Buddhism?.

3. If I recall, Buddhism can be approached and embraced as a religion or a philosophy. Is your approach to Buddhism more philosophical than religious?

4. What is truth monk? Do you think there is such a thing as ‘absolute’ truth?

[ackeepod]

Re: WELCOME...*MONK*...F&amp;R Summer Feature Presentation!

much appreciated ! ..

[rudemonk]

Re: WELCOME...*MONK*...F&amp;R Summer Feature Presentation!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Silent_River</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quite interesting monk..
I recall us having a conversation on Buddhism some time ago and making comparisons with Christianity. We did not get this far, so it was intersting to read some new things. Clearly, religions are very similar in their structure and I am sure many organized religions can attest to sects within a religion, misinterpretation of the core teachings, ‘added’ teachings etc.

</div></div>

Yup, humans being humans, you can't trust us and the closest thing is like, think of religions like giant games of Telephone.

This is why it is important to understand the archetypes and not so much the local flavors and interpretations, which are certainly illuminating in their own rights- most of the time.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. Do you think you have a grasp of the more authentic Buddhism? This question is based on your statement of rejecting certain teachings of Buddhism.
</div></div>

I wouldn't presume to say that. But in Ch'an, what is &quot;buddhism&quot; is very personal, it's realizing the self and your position in ultimate reality, how things really are.

There are millions of Buddhas. Each Buddha has the most authentic Buddhism.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2. So the Ch’an story is akin to ‘parables’, ie, illustrative teachings of the Buddhism?.
</div></div>

Yes, because you see, when you use a parable to teach or transmit wisdom, it's because you are dealing with ineffables. You cant put words to the concepts because words don't express them well. You need to train the mind to understand things intuitively.

It's not meant to be literal. It <span style="font-style: italic">may</span> be literal. But you won't find any one armed people in Shaolin.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
3. If I recall, Buddhism can be approached and embraced as a religion or a philosophy. Is your approach to Buddhism more philosophical than religious?
</div></div>

Ch'an is definitely more philosophical than religious. One of the more famous sayings is, if you see the Buddha on the road, Kill him.

I mean it depends, because Ch'an is also institutionalized. To me, the more a system becomes institutionalized, the further it deviates from the dharma, or rather, the less opportunity a practitioner will have to realize their original mind. That is why they say, eat when it is time to eat, sleep when it is time to sleep.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
4. What is truth monk? Do you think there is such a thing as ‘absolute’ truth?
</div></div>

Ah. The question of Pilate. I think that absolute truth is revealed subjectively. Tell me a little bit more about how you mean absolute truth.

[DC]

Re: WELCOME...*MONK*...F&amp;R Summer Feature Presentation!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
4. What is truth monk? Do you think there is such a thing as ‘absolute’ truth? </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ah. The question of Pilate. <span style="font-weight: bold">I think that absolute truth is revealed subjectively.</span> Tell me a little bit more about how you mean absolute truth. </div></div>

Absolute truth=universal, irrefutable and so forth...

Ok, So truth is subjective reality for you. Do you think there is objective truth in religion?

OR let me put it another way:

Can there be absolute truth(s) in religion?


<span style="font-style: italic">I promise, that is my last question.. </span>

[rudemonk]

Re: WELCOME...*MONK*...F&amp;R Summer Feature Presentation!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Silent_River</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
4. What is truth monk? Do you think there is such a thing as ‘absolute’ truth? </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ah. The question of Pilate. <span style="font-weight: bold">I think that absolute truth is revealed subjectively.</span> Tell me a little bit more about how you mean absolute truth. </div></div>

Absolute truth=universal, irrefutable and so forth...

Ok, So truth is subjective reality for you. Do you think there is objective truth in religion?

</div></div>

Ok. Yes, but what I mean is that this absolute truth is revealed through a journey which is individual, tuned if you will. The Dharma is absolute, immutable, anyone is capable of revelation.

An absolute truth is not something like, Yashua was the Son of God and died for us. This can not be &quot;revealed&quot; by anyone's direct observation- without psychotropics- someone has to tell you about it, and you then have to conform to the views presented, or accept or reject piecemeal depending on how strong your cynicism is, I would wager. Most of us are conditioned as children to accept, at least a modicum, the faith of our fathers and mothers. That's why it is so irrational for fundamentalists to make any such claim to exclusivity as we often see them make. Would God seriously abandon people born to Hindu parents like that. I think eventually we would all have to agree that no, if he exists he would not.

Have you ever read any of Castanada? I read a few of his books. In some, boy he really goes off the deep end. But in one book, there is a very interesting premise subtly handled- it is called Journey to Ixtlan. It's my favorite book of his, because it details the apprenticeship of an anthropology student learning about Southwest Indian Shamanism. Anyway, in the book the apprentice meets several shamans, or as Castanada speaks of them, sorcerors. One of his master's compatriots is said to be on his way to Ixtlan. Eventually it comes out that Castanada has never heard of this place and wonders when they will be arriving, and the sorcerors have themselves a good chuckle because Ixtlan is not something you reach, it is a process. They will always be going to Ixtlan.

Interestingly, there is another mirror between Buddhism and Christianity because just as many people feel that Yashua first taught a transcendental revelation of a Kingdom of Heaven within, and later people warped this message to include eschatological themes, so too is it with the concept of NIrvana...some people describe it as a state attainable now- which is my view- and others feel that it is the result of enlightenment after the fact and you escape from the cycle of birth and death.

There is a further twist in that this escape which is referenced, simply means not that you don't come back, but that when you come back your next life is not determined by karma.

[DC]

Re: WELCOME...*MONK*...F&amp;R Summer Feature Presentation!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The Dharma is absolute, immutable, anyone is capable of revelation.

An absolute truth is not something like, Yashua was the Son of God and died for us. </div></div>

mmmmmmm are you absolutely sure these statements are true?

If absolute truths are individually revealed, who to tell that these are absolute truths also?

<span style="font-style: italic">By the way, it was a great segment. Enjoyed it! </span>

[rudemonk]

Re: WELCOME...*MONK*...F&amp;R Summer Feature Presentation!

because absolute truth must be verifiable and independent for it to be absolute, according to how we are using the term.

it might be true, of course, but it can't be verified independently. the proof is not in the pudding so to speak.

all we have is testimony to the fact, however convincing or unconvincing, regarding the truth of that statement about Jesus.

so the fact is, you don't know that, in the same way as you can know about, say...interbeing. Interbeing is an example of an absolute. Even quantum mechanics corresponds with this truth.

[DC]

Re: WELCOME...*MONK*...F&amp;R Summer Feature Presentation!

<span style="font-style: italic">I had promised one last question, but can't help my thoughts as I read your response </span>

What makes the Dharma verifiable and absolute?

How do we verify subjective truths? If absolute truths are 'revealed subjectively'?

How is it true for one but not for the other? <span style="font-style: italic">if revealed subjectively?</span>

[DC]

Re: WELCOME...*MONK*...F&amp;R Summer Feature Presentation!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have you ever read any of Castanada?</div></div>

No I haven't. Do you recommend? I'll check it out if you do recommend..

[rudemonk]

Re: WELCOME...*MONK*...F&amp;R Summer Feature Presentation!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Silent_River</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">I had promised one last question, but can't help my thoughts as I read your response </span>

What makes the Dharma verifiable and absolute?
</div></div>

All it takes is awareness, and you can verify yourself. For example, suffering. Clearly, there is suffering in the human condition. The way the dharma unfolds is logical, falsifiable, testable.

That is why it is an absolute, it's immutable. Locally, it's manifestations can change accordingly, but the conclusion is there, it's just the process.

To use a mathematical expression, it is like saying 2+2 = 4. But also 3+1 = 4. Some people, their process is composed of 2s. For other people, there are 3s and 1s, maybe other people it is all 1s.

Maybe 3's and 2's get jumbled up, and in that case the dharma is not truly reflected. It might be hinted at.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do we verify subjective truths? If absolute truths are 'revealed subjectively'?
</div></div>

as above, that is why it is not always possible to achieve enlightenment without the guidance of a master.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How is it true for one but not for the other? <span style="font-style: italic">if revealed subjectively?</span>
</div></div>

I would say it's important to not confuse local, individual, process for the absolute truth. You remember in the Pilate story, Yashua does not reply.

What can he say about Truth? There is nothing to say about it. In fact, you can't really speak about it at all. In fact, the more you start to talk about it the further you get.

There is a story, another of those pesky parables, lol, about the 2nd Ch'an patriarch. It was famously retold by Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragon, involving a finger pointing to the moon.

The story goes:

<span style="font-style: italic">
The nun Wujincang came to the Sixth Patriarch Hui Neng and said, “I have been studying the Nirvana Sutra for years and years but there are still passages that I don’t understand. Do you think you could explain them to me?&quot;

Hui Neng, who was an illiterate kitchen thrall when he attained enlightenment, replied, &quot;I’m sorry. I can’t read. If you can read the passages out for me I’ll see if I can help you understand them.&quot;

The nun was a little taken aback.

&quot;If you can’t even read the words, how then can you understand the truth behind them?&quot; said Wujincang.

&quot;The truth and the words are unrelated. The truth can be compared to the moon, and the words can be compared to a finger. I can use my finger to point out the moon but my finger is not the moon and you don’t need my finger to see the moon, do you?&quot;
</span>

[DC]

Re: WELCOME...*MONK*...F&amp;R Summer Feature Presentation!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would say it's important to not confuse local, individual, process for the absolute truth. You remember in the Pilate story, Yashua does not reply.</div></div>

Subjective essentially means 'individually process', which is the process by which you obtain absolute truth (according to the definitation you gave), which is why I asked the question. In any case, I am not totally satisfied with this response, but that's okay. Another time...

I must say though, it sounds like you are implying that truth is found only in the Dharma/Buddhism, but truth is not found in the various religions.

re: 'pesky' parables..I wouldn't call them 'pseky'..we have them too lol..plus I don't mind reading them.....

[rudemonk]

Re: WELCOME...*MONK*...F&amp;R Summer Feature Presentation!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Silent_River</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
...I must say though, it sounds like you are implying that truth is found only in the Dharma/Buddhism, but truth is not found in the various religions.
</div></div>

No man, that's not it at all....I mean you do notice how many times I cite to Yashua's teachings....

This is the problem though with declaration of a specific spiritual system, it becomes one of exclusivity. You see there is no Dharma, that is just a convenient word to use to describe the ineffable....no one lays claim to it, it is what is. There could never have been a Buddha, there could never be another Buddha, and the Dharma would remain.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
re: 'pesky' parables..I wouldn't call them 'pseky'..we have them too lol..plus I don't mind reading them..... </div></div>

yeah man, when I say pesky I just mean they challenge our comfortable notions and make us rise to the occasion, or at least they should. they get into your head and short circuit your dualistic way of thinking.

[DC]

Re: WELCOME...*MONK*...F&amp;R Summer Feature Presentation!

awright monk...To be continued at a later date..