Re: Divine punishment?

[britisha]

Re: Re: Divine punishment?

Originally posted by mountaingal:
[qb]

Originally posted by fOrTyLeGz:
[qb] See Fledge, god's not human, so we can never understand him. He's way beyond us. But what ever he choses to do is perfect, and we should praise him and give him, or his servents at least 10% of our money. So because god makes EVERYTHING, he made SARS too. We should praise him for it, and let history try and sort out why. [/qb]

i hear it's some sort of divine test for the faithful...something along the lines of the sick and dead being used as examples for those who don't do as they are divinely told. [/qb]

...and the Christian Scientists would throw this (non) argument right out the window where it belongs....I know this is not your argument, but the opinion on my part still stands; so please don't use one set of arguments...again if I can call it that....to paint Christians with a broad brush. From all this will definitely come the question who is and who isn't a christian. (more food for thought)

[musa]

Re: Re: Divine punishment?

peace,
i do not believe aids to be divine punishment but rather i agree with brigadier. both regular and scientific papers in russia, india and usa reported facts about the virus being a lab product. beside being meant to be a population controlling device for africa it also was meant to imply bestiality on the side of africans; since they said the virus originated from monkeys and is transmitted trough sexual intercourse...
one love,

[mountaingal]

Re: Re: Divine punishment?

Originally posted by britisha:
[qb]

Originally posted by mountaingal:
[qb]

Originally posted by fOrTyLeGz:
[qb] See Fledge, god's not human, so we can never understand him. He's way beyond us. But what ever he choses to do is perfect, and we should praise him and give him, or his servents at least 10% of our money. So because god makes EVERYTHING, he made SARS too. We should praise him for it, and let history try and sort out why. [/qb]

i hear it's some sort of divine test for the faithful...something along the lines of the sick and dead being used as examples for those who don't do as they are divinely told. [/qb]

...and the Christian Scientists would throw this (non) argument right out the window where it belongs....I know this is not your argument, but the opinion on my part still stands; so please don't use one set of arguments...again if I can call it that....to paint Christians with a broad brush. From all this will definitely come the question who is and who isn't a christian. (more food for thought) [/qb]

i never named any particular religion, britisha. i just spoke of the faithful. as far as I can see, this could be a position held by the faithful of any religion that tries to have an answer forthe incomprehensibilities of life.

[Fledgist]

Re: Re: Divine punishment?

Originally posted by britisha:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb] Some people here have made the argument that AIDS is divine punishment for the 'sins' of sexual promiscuity and homosexuality.

Perhaps these persons, or others, can tell us what 'sin' SARS punishes?

Is it breathing? Being Asian? Or being Canadian? [/qb]

I imagine that they are using the premise, (if I can call it that) that mankind knows how AIDS is transmitted, sexual contact is one means thereof and if you engage in sexual promiscuiy then you are determined to get AIDS as a punishment. In other words if one knowingly goes out and engage in sexual promiscuity, then this is the "punishment" that is possible. As I stated in my other thread, the innocent health care workers, haemophilliacs and those who are given AIDS tainted blood also MAY contract AIDS....so where would that leave them?....since the disease doesn't know who or under what circumstance it is being transmitted..in other words it doesn't discriminate...or does it?


{Fledgist: Not as far as I know. For that matter, one would have to consider 'slow murders', in which HIV-infected blood is smeared on edged weapons which are used to harm, but not immediately kill, a victim.}

SARS on the other hand is an air-borne transmitted respiratory disease, as far as I understand it to be although touching fomites etc can serve as a means of spread also. No sin involved unless smaddi steals something froom a SARS victim to give a weird eg. The thing here is those who subscribe to that premise Fledgist etal, no Sin is involved...and I am trying to follow the line of reasoning of those who purport the punishment bit.


{Fledgist: Good luck! There's a certain absurdity to claiming that some diseases are specifically punitive.}


The concept of sin, IMHO involves guilt, a wrong done with the expectation that some retribution for that wrong, whether it is a mind thingy where the person feels that I have done wrong and I therefore ought to be punished...even if no obvious punishment occurs or if an actual punishment occurs like exacting retribution against one who offends you.

While the Bible said "The wages of sin is death" we obviously all must die...although religious sects like Unity speaks of or interprets this "death" as meaning something else...then the argument would become:

(a) sin is punishable by death

(b) all men must die

(c) therefore all who die are sinners..in a nuthsell.


{Fledgist: Which makes everything nicely circular.}


I took umbrage with that argument especially since one here who purported the "aids = punishment", claims to be a health care worker. How can they unbiasedly administer care in the true creed of the Hippocratic Oath or the Florence Nightingale Pledge, to an AIDS victim, harboring those judgemental opinions? This IMHO would definitely influence negatively...whether they care to admit it, and this is not passing judgement....sic... the care rendered to these people.....even gays.....which is total opposed to the function of a true care giver.

{Fledgist: I believe that the response to this will be a fudge of the 'hate the sin but love the sinner' kind.

On a closely related point, I seem to recall that Ronald Reagan sought to appoint to the DHHS a person who believed that physical handicaps were a divine punishment.}


Which now leads me to wonder if this is one of the reasons why the disease is still raging, for the simple resons that there MAY be so many christians in the profession (and there are) who MAY be discriminating in the care they render to these people.

In brief, in answer to your question, man, christians included, are in NO position to determine what and who God punishes, and for what. If that is the case, then they are having a delusion of grandeur; attempting to speak for God. As a child I was told that "God will punish you if you do this and if you do that." Well that is between me and God, (and YES!! a resounding YES, I believe in the Judeao-christian God)...I know what the Bible says, but I honestly do not believe that we should identify one disease to illustrate what it said. I don't need a guilt trip to be forced on me as to what will happen to me....well of course unless the one who is talking about the punishment is not a sinner and is not going to die...using the line I quoted as the backdrop for this.

My 2 cents...

Have a nice day!!
----------------
No, my name is not Alice and I am not in Wonderland... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

...and NO I am not religious either...too sinful to be called that... re-edited. [/qb]

Thanks, Britisha. It's a thoughtful response.

[britisha]

Re: Re: Divine punishment?

i never named any particular religion, britisha. i just spoke of the faithful. as far as I can see, this could be a position held by the faithful of any religion that tries to have an answer for the incomprehensibilities of life.

No you didn't, however I hear that line of "reasoning" from many christians..unfortunately a line I used to entertain myself...

i hear it's some sort of divine test for the faithful

...until I read a religious text that counters this belief and which made more sense to me.....

something along the lines of the sick and dead being used as examples for those who don't do as they are divinely told.

...and isn't this nonsensical, especially if we follow the reasoning that all men are mortal? God IMHO didn't wish for men to be sick, if this was the case Jesus of Nazareth would not have gone around healing people of all manner of afflictions, according to their faith/belief. So this thing about divine punishment for the disobedient just seems very farfetched. Again I wish they would tell this to a Christian Scientist. It is the same nonsensical argument that God wishes his children to be poor and hungry when He promised that He would take care of ALL of us...(only if He would help us against those who are ripping us off in the name of beaurocracy.)

How can illness be viewed as a testing ground? What is being tested, our faith in God? If we believe in God then why would it need further testing? One either believes or doesn't. Testing IMHO would come if one is still in doubt as to whether there is or isn't a God, and if that is the case, then that is a different story.

Let us for argument sake leave God out of the discussion for a moment: certain actions have a reaction. There is cause and effect. If one puts a loaded gun to one's head and pulls the trigger and blows off half his face but doesn't die, this is effect from pulling the trigger, explainable. Surely God puts some of us to test, daily, (the doubtful)..but I don't think that God makes a person ill [just] to test his faith.

I know that many will jump to the story of JOB in the Old Testament, however this was in the days before Jesus the Christ, the Healer appeared on the scene and Satan was very active in the picture telling Job to curse God and die.

What I believe is, there seem to be a confusion between "testing" and "temptation." In temptation Satan again is in the picture, and if one is ill or facing certain challenges can use the occasion to tempt the person into giving up on his faith in God...but can this be called a testing of faith?

[So] MG although I believe and know that there are insurmountable problems in life that seem to have no answer, and we are created with free will over most of what we do as mankind:

(a) indicting certain diseases as punishment from God is unfair and even fanatical and

(b) when man through his own sinfulness causes certain reactions, noone should blame God.

God is a merciful God, slow to anger and full of forgiveness. AS the Holy Scriptures say, judgement is mine, saith the Lord. All of us need to remember this.

Many of these problems are "man-made" have nothing to do with God (?HO's comments...look at how man is using his knowledge to create biologicals that can kill). Why would God use manmade wickedness to test us? That is beyond me.

Originally by Fledgist:{Fledgist: Good luck! There's a certain absurdity to claiming that some diseases are specifically punitive.}

I concur....err, unless certain diseases that are genetically caused like TaySachs and sickle cell anaemia, for eg. are specific for the respective races, since they must be very bad people... Interesting thread. (final edit)
--------------
my tuppence.

[Wahalla]

Re: Re: Divine punishment?

This is Gaia at her best perfection!.... Mother Earth (Enclosed system that is this blue planet) is responding to a peterbations and producing a solution to a problem..... It is as baeutiful as it is cruel....

[Wahalla]

Re: Re: Divine punishment?

Britisha, as always yu save all dese beleivers! Yu his a beleiver but it seems that you are capable of giving a thought out postion... Mi lub yu..

As always yu sure yu his nat an atheist ? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Originally posted by britisha:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb] Some people here have made the argument that AIDS is divine punishment for the 'sins' of sexual promiscuity and homosexuality.

Perhaps these persons, or others, can tell us what 'sin' SARS punishes?

Is it breathing? Being Asian? Or being Canadian? [/qb]

I imagine that they are using the premise, (if I can call it that) that mankind knows how AIDS is transmitted, sexual contact is one means thereof and if you engage in sexual promiscuiy then you are determined to get AIDS as a punishment. In other words if one knowingly goes out and engage in sexual promiscuity, then this is the "punishment" that is possible. As I stated in my other thread, the innocent health care workers, haemophilliacs and those who are given AIDS tainted blood also MAY contract AIDS....so where would that leave them?....since the disease doesn't know who or under what circumstance it is being transmitted..in other words it doesn't discriminate...or does it?

SARS on the other hand is an air-borne transmitted respiratory disease, as far as I understand it to be although touching fomites etc can serve as a means of spread also. No sin involved unless smaddi steals something froom a SARS victim to give a weird eg. The thing here is those who subscribe to that premise Fledgist etal, no Sin is involved...and I am trying to follow the line of reasoning of those who purport the punishment bit.

The concept of sin, IMHO involves guilt, a wrong done with the expectation that some retribution for that wrong, whether it is a mind thingy where the person feels that I have done wrong and I therefore ought to be punished...even if no obvious punishment occurs or if an actual punishment occurs like exacting retribution against one who offends you.

While the Bible said "The wages of sin is death" we obviously all must die...although religious sects like Unity speaks of or interprets this "death" as meaning something else...then the argument would become:

(a) sin is punishable by death

(b) all men must die

(c) therefore all who die are sinners..in a nuthsell.

I took umbrage with that argument especially since one here who purported the "aids = punishment", claims to be a health care worker. How can they unbiasedly administer care in the true creed of the Hippocratic Oath or the Florence Nightingale Pledge, to an AIDS victim, harboring those judgemental opinions? This IMHO would definitely influence negatively...whether they care to admit it, and this is not passing judgement....sic... the care rendered to these people.....even gays.....which is total opposed to the function of a true care giver.

Which now leads me to wonder if this is one of the reasons why the disease is still raging, for the simple resons that there MAY be so many christians in the profession (and there are) who MAY be discriminating in the care they render to these people.

In brief, in answer to your question, man, christians included, are in NO position to determine what and who God punishes, and for what. If that is the case, then they are having a delusion of grandeur; attempting to speak for God. As a child I was told that "God will punish you if you do this and if you do that." Well that is between me and God, (and YES!! a resounding YES, I believe in the Judeao-christian God)...I know what the Bible says, but I honestly do not believe that we should identify one disease to illustrate what it said. I don't need a guilt trip to be forced on me as to what will happen to me....well of course unless the one who is talking about the punishment is not a sinner and is not going to die...using the line I quoted as the backdrop for this.

My 2 cents...

Have a nice day!!
----------------
No, my name is not Alice and I am not in Wonderland... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

...and NO I am not religious either...too sinful to be called that... re-edited. [/qb]

[mountaingal]

Re: Re: Divine punishment?

your comments have made me think, britisha, and there are a couple more points i'd like to clarify with you. but lickle later, when me have more time. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[britisha]

Re: Re: Divine punishment?

OK MG; ((Wallie)) mi lub yuh too, and no, I am not an atheist. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Diplomat]

Re: Re: Divine punishment?

Originally posted by britisha:
[qb]...although I believe and know that there are insurmountable problems in life that seem to have no answer, and we are created with free will over most of what we do as mankind:

(a) indicting certain diseases as punishment from God is unfair and even fanatical and

(b) when man through his own sinfulness causes certain reactions, noone should blame God. [/qb]

I agree wholeheartedly.

[Fledgist]

Re: Re: Divine punishment?

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]

Originally posted by britisha:
[qb]...although I believe and know that there are insurmountable problems in life that seem to have no answer, and we are created with free will over most of what we do as mankind:

(a) indicting certain diseases as punishment from God is unfair and even fanatical and

(b) when man through his own sinfulness causes certain reactions, noone should blame God. [/qb]

I agree wholeheartedly. [/qb]

Even though this god of yours created the diseases?

[mountaingal]

Re: Re: Divine punishment?

Originally posted by britisha:
[qb]
The concept of sin, IMHO involves guilt, a wrong done with the expectation that some retribution for that wrong, whether it is a mind thingy where the person feels that I have done wrong and I therefore ought to be punished...even if no obvious punishment occurs or if an actual punishment occurs like exacting retribution against one who offends you.

{MG: britisha, how do you view the concept of "original sin" as a factor in this scenario of AIDS or other epidemics? If, according to Christianity, humankind is born sinful, then it wouldn't it be rational (within the paradigms of the religion), to ascribe AIDS as one form of divine punishment for original sin? That this form does not account for individual commission of sin, but addresses the wholesale inherent sinful nature of human beings? (As an atheist I don't believe in these concepts but I do look at how they figure into Christians' everyday world views). In other words, at an intellectual level I'm seeing a consistency in Christian belief when I see comments like AIDS is divine punishment, because the Christian divinity makes sinners of everyone from birth. So I can't knock a Christian for this position as held on the basis of his or her belief, though I might, from a humanitarian perspective, see that position as cruel...}
...

Which now leads me to wonder if this is one of the reasons why the disease is still raging, for the simple resons that there MAY be so many christians in the profession (and there are) who MAY be discriminating in the care they render to these people.

{MG - I think this is a little harsh...Not to say that perhaps there aren't Christians who may be conflicted between their religious and professional imperatives, or that some may choose to not perform a professional task because it goes against their religious belief. But I think it's over the top to suggest that this kind of conflict may be a reason for the disease "still raging".}
...

In brief, in answer to your question, man, christians included, are in NO position to determine what and who God punishes, and for what. If that is the case, then they are having a delusion of grandeur; attempting to speak for God. [/qb]

And yet...if no one is in a position to determine what and who and why God punishes, isn't there an automatic corollary...that no-one is in a position to determine what and who and why God rewards? I think this is a pivotal point...knowing God's mind means knowing what pleases or displeases him, what he would reward or punish, and why. One cannot, it seems to me, be assertive about knowing what will draw God's rewards without being equally assertive about knowing what will draw his punishment.

So, if we say that no-one can be in a position to know what/why God punishes, then it seems to me no-one can be in a position to know God's mind in any way...and this seems to contradict a lot of what is taught about living your life in a way to please God.

[img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

I'd like to hear your views on this, and anyone else who wishes to comment. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[britisha]

Re: Re: Divine punishment?

Even though this god of yours created the diseases?

Fledge, are you saying that you believe in this God? If He doesn't exist as you purport, then He by His non-eistence, cannot create anything...noh true?

[Then] if you believe that He creates these diseases, by having the ability to create is in essence belief in His existence..no soh?

[Fledgist]

Re: Re: Divine punishment?

Originally posted by britisha:
[qb]

Even though this god of yours created the diseases?

Fledge, are you saying that you believe in this God? If He doesn't exist as you purport, then He by His non-eistence, cannot create anything...noh true?

[Then] if you believe that He creates these diseases, by having the ability to create is in essence belief in His existence..no soh? [/qb]

No one has demonstrated the existence of a god beyond reasonable doubt, so I don't believe in it.

However, you and CEW, do, so I was asking a question in terms of your belief system.

[britisha]

Re: Re: Divine punishment?

Originally posted by mountaingal:

{MG: britisha, how do you view the concept of "original sin" as a factor in this scenario of AIDS or other epidemics?

The concept of "original sin" as far as I know it to be, and this is going waaay back, never involved or included any reference to any disease or epidemic. AS far as I know only the RC church embraces the idea of original sin. [subject to correction] Simply illustrated, imagine a newborn infant being born into the world, never hurt anyone, never did any wrong simply based on his inability to do so, still yet he is considered "sinful." All because he inherited the sins of our first parents, "Adam and Eve." (in a nutshell)

If, according to Christianity, humankind is born sinful, then it wouldn't it be rational (within the paradigms of the religion), to ascribe AIDS as one form of divine punishment for original sin?

[img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I will venture to say that if I believe in the Bible, then I must believe in God's punishment for sins committed. However, it is not for me to say that God would inflict an individual with a disease to punish him/her for "original sin." Bear in mind that in christian theology, it is because of original sin (inherited) and actual sins committed by an individual that Jesus, the Christ came into the world, and died on Calvary's cross to redeem us for all these our sins committed, or sins of omission as well...if we do our part and repent. He already sent His Son to save us from eternal damnation so why would he in His mercy afflict us again, a double whammy for "original sin?"

That this form does not account for individual commission of sin, but addresses the wholesale inherent sinful nature of human beings? (As an atheist I don't believe in these concepts but I do look at how they figure into Christians' everyday world views).

If I understand your comment, the fact that mankind is considered sinful by nature, doesn't necessarily mean that an individual couldn't lead a sinless life, with original sin being the only sin that he could be held accountable for....although this would almost be impossible, considering the temptations in the world in which we live.

In other words, at an intellectual level I'm seeing a consistency in Christian belief when I see comments like AIDS is divine punishment, because the Christian divinity makes sinners of everyone from birth. So I can't knock a Christian for this position as held on the basis of his or her belief, though I might, from a humanitarian perspective, see that position as cruel...}

Cruel on whose part, God's part or that of the commentators? I think you answered your own question here; however as I stated earlier, I don't see the connection between AIDS and "divine punishment." I don't.
...

Which now leads me to wonder if this is one of the reasons why the disease is still raging, for the simple reasons that there MAY be so many christians in the profession (and there are) who MAY be discriminating in the care they render to these people.

{MG - I think this is a little harsh...Not to say that perhaps there aren't Christians who may be conflicted between their religious and professional imperatives, or that some may choose to not perform a professional task because it goes against their religious belief. But I think it's over the top to suggest that this kind of conflict may be a reason for the disease "still raging".}

The word MAY which was used intentionally and repeatedly in my post implies that there is NO certainty, and was just a soliloquoy of what I am thinking. However, while we as a specie may act on a conscious level, bear in mind again that there is a subconscious level that influences our behaviour and thinking.

This subconscious level is even more powerful than the conscious level. It is very influential on how we behave. The point being, while on a conscious level we may do certain things, like rendering care to sick patients, if on a subsconscious level we harbor judgements against say gays for eg, it is bound to influence how we treat such ppl if they become our patients without our even being aware.

Remember the often quoted Bible verse, (part) "be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind.. This is a very powerful statement to show what the mind is capable of doing.

You must also remember that while this [biased rendering of care] may not apply to only christians, [it can apply to anyone who is judgemental towards others] the literature abounds with accounts of unkind, immoral behaviour of some towards others simply based on their sexual orientation, race, sex etc to name a few. To stretch this even further, it is a known fact that blacks on a whole receive sub-standard care more often than not, simply based on racial prejudice [in America].

If it is even one case, it is one case too many and this will in effect affect morbidity/mortality rates in diseases, and MAY account for the staggering statistics concerning certain disease processes among certain groups. Again, I speak with no certainty, and would NEVER make the claim that this is the reason why some diseases are not totally eradicated.
...

In brief, in answer to your question, man, christians included, are in NO position to determine what and who God punishes, and for what. If that is the case, then they are having a delusion of grandeur; attempting to speak for God.

And yet...if no one is in a position to determine what and who and why God punishes, isn't there an automatic corollary...that no-one is in a position to determine what and who and why God rewards?

I would agree from an intellectual standpoint; but it would be easier to say that God rewards goodness in all manner of ways than to say that God punishes homosexuals or sexual promiscuous ppl with AIDS...don't you think?

I think this is a pivotal point...knowing God's mind means knowing what pleases or displeases him, what he would reward or punish, and why. One cannot, it seems to me, be assertive about knowing what will draw God's rewards without being equally assertive about knowing what will draw his punishment.

So, if we say that no-one can be in a position to know what/why God punishes, then it seems to me no-one can be in a position to know God's mind in any way...and this seems to contradict a lot of what is taught about living your life in a way to please God.

[img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Don't be confused. The Scriptures abounds with the promises of God to those who believe in HIM and live a life of serving and trusting in Him. These are the promises that He made to us. The original question made specific reference to AIDS as divine punishment, that is the crux of the discussion. If AIDS is divine punishment, then all illnesses, all diseases should fall in the same realm, however the common denominator, SIN/promiscuity doesn't enter into all the causative factors...[IF I follow some line of thinking, which I do NOT] which leads right back to the original question, why is Aids and not SAARS for eg. considered "divine punishment?" Or is it?

MG: I'd like to hear your views on this, and anyone else who wishes to comment. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]