A Question to Ponder...Cain & Abel

[Guest]

Re: A Question to Ponder...Cain & Abel

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb] Yeah, I have always wondered about that. He marked Cain visibly and told him that anyone who killed Cain would get Cain's curse -- only seven times bigger (Genesis 4:15). It has been suggested that "the mark of Cain was to help keep him from being physically harmed while he was a stranger and a vagabond. It did not guarantee his safety, it only promised a worse fate for those who harmed him. We cannot be certain whether the mark was an actual physical sign or something else." I am very intrigued as to what God had in mind. Perhaps He was setting the ground rules that says it was wrong to kill, even in retaliation? [/qb]

Note what I also said about Israel, that God warned every country that she was taken captive to not to harm her in anyway, do you see kind of a correlation there?

[Guest]

Re: A Question to Ponder...Cain & Abel

Originally posted by kumba1:
[qb]

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb] Regarding Kumba's post, I am preplexed regarding the "attitude" of Cain. Up to the time of the sacrifice, there was nothing to suggest that he was of questionable attitude/character. [/qb]

There is little written regarding the history of Cain and Abel prior to the first murder committed. However as Jedi pointed out, we have to go forward to glean an understanding of the attitude that Cain displayed. 1John 3:11,12 show's Cain's heart attitude to have been bad; and his later rejection of God's counsel and warning, as well as his premeditated murder of his brother Abel, demonstrated this. As we are not able to read the heart condition of man, it is impossible for us to make any judgement regarding their thoughts until they carry them out. Not so for God, He is aware of our heart condition better than we understand ourselves. [/qb]

Good points! I find that to be true of a lot of the scripture, which is why it is probably a good idea to compare scripture with scripture before jumping to a specific conclusion. Another thing that I find is that in the new testament we may get an even more detailed explanation of things that are not necessarily written as such in the old. Eh-em (((CEW))) [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Diplomat]

Re: A Question to Ponder...Cain & Abel

Originally posted by Jedi l:

Note what I also said about Israel, that God warned every country that she was taken captive to not to harm her in anyway, do you see kind of a correlation there?

What are you thinking? I can see Cain's situation being one of it being wrong to retaliate, but I am not sure I see the correlation with Israel.

[kthydvs]

Re: A Question to Ponder...Cain & Abel

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb] Yeah, I have always wondered about that. He marked Cain visibly and told him that anyone who killed Cain would get Cain's curse -- only seven times bigger (Genesis 4:15). It has been suggested that "the mark of Cain was to help keep him from being physically harmed while he was a stranger and a vagabond. It did not guarantee his safety, it only promised a worse fate for those who harmed him. We cannot be certain whether the mark was an actual physical sign or something else." I am very intrigued as to what God had in mind. Perhaps He was setting the ground rules that says it was wrong to kill, even in retaliation? [/qb]

It is possibly the intention of God to outlaw the taking of another life and His solemn decree would have been known and observed by others (Gen 4:24) We can also relate this decree with further statements regarding God's will. If we look at Deut 32:35 and Heb 10:30 where it states vengence belongs to God, making it plain that we have no right to seek retribution from any man, but only God has that right.

[Diplomat]

Re: A Question to Ponder...Cain & Abel

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb]

Originally posted by kumba1:
[qb]

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb] Regarding Kumba's post, I am preplexed regarding the "attitude" of Cain. Up to the time of the sacrifice, there was nothing to suggest that he was of questionable attitude/character. [/qb]

There is little written regarding the history of Cain and Abel prior to the first murder committed. However as Jedi pointed out, we have to go forward to glean an understanding of the attitude that Cain displayed. 1John 3:11,12 show's Cain's heart attitude to have been bad; and his later rejection of God's counsel and warning, as well as his premeditated murder of his brother Abel, demonstrated this. As we are not able to read the heart condition of man, it is impossible for us to make any judgement regarding their thoughts until they carry them out. Not so for God, He is aware of our heart condition better than we understand ourselves. [/qb]

Good points! I find that to be true of a lot of the scripture, which is why it is probably a good idea to compare scripture with scripture before jumping to a specific conclusion. Another thing that I find is that in the new testament we may get an even more detailed explanation of things that are not necessarily written as such in the old. Eh-em (((CEW))) [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [/qb]

As I said in a previous post: "I think the answer can be found in Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?", and the fact that all our actions stems from there." We could also go into all the New Testament scriptures on the heart and what proceeds from it, but I do think Jeremiah sums it up nicely.

[Guest]

Re: A Question to Ponder...Cain & Abel

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi l:

Note what I also said about Israel, that God warned every country that she was taken captive to not to harm her in anyway, do you see kind of a correlation there?

What are you thinking? I can see Cain's situation being one of it being wrong to retaliate, but I am not sure I see the correlation with Israel. [/qb]

Well I guess it just strikes me that after God allowed Israel to be taken into captivity He warned her captives not to harm her in anyway, similar to what He did for Cain. I kinda think it seems to mean that He is has not completely disowned them that there is still time to get right with God.

[Diplomat]

Re: A Question to Ponder...Cain & Abel

Originally posted by Jedi l:Well I guess it just strikes me that after God allowed Israel to be taken into captivity He warned her captives not to harm her in anyway, similar to what He did for Cain. I kinda think it seems to mean that He is has not completely disowned them that there is still time to get right with God.

Maybe so, but I see them as two different things. Isreal was God's chosen, unlike Cain, so it would make sense for Him to protect her. It would seem Cain wasn't being "protected" because he was special, but moreso the execution of the God's divine order against retaliatory murder.

[musa]

Re: A Question to Ponder...Cain & Abel

peace,
brother cew, i don't know what that "islamic perspective" article is based on.
i did check the site and it doesn't seem to be authentic muslims behind it. (but i will give it a deeper look).
there's no explanation in the holy qur'an of the reason for Allah accepting one and refusing the other. and actually Allah needs not to give us a reason.
we know all our acts are based (and judged upon) intention: when i perform my 5 daily salaats (prayers) or i fast or i give alms or whatever i have no certainty that that act will be accepted by Allah. He knows my intention way better than i do and He is free to accept or refuse anything He wants from His creatures.
it is obvious that the intention of the two brothers was not equally pure.
in another passage of the holy qur'an Allah makes clear thet it is not the blood of sacrifice that reaches Him but the effort and goodwill of the one making the sacrifice.
i know blood has many implications in christian theology but that is not the case with islam.
furthermore i understand these biblical/qur'anic parables to be important for the teaching they carry but we should not go as far as questioning Allah's decisions.
and Allah knows best.
one love.

[Guest]

Re: A Question to Ponder...Cain & Abel

It would seem Cain wasn't being "protected" because he was special, but moreso the execution of the God's divine order against retaliatory murder.


Interesting perspective. As I said I just find it very intriguing and while I agree that Israel was God's chosen, was not Cain also God's grandson? Just stretching the discussion a bit because it makes one think which is a good thing. How do you see Israel as so different in regards to her sins? in some places it says that even the heathen nations were taken aback by her sins. Wasn't God also protecting her from retaliatory murder also. And I find it quite interesting that He didn't choose to kill Cain Himself for taking the life of his brother.

[Guest]

Re: A Question to Ponder...Cain & Abel

(((CEW))) Well I guess you have exhausted this topic so I will just end by saying this: While pondering the questions above in my mind something came through very clearly to me. As we struggle with these questions I guess we are all individually partially right with our deduction. But something else became crystal clear in to me.
Throughout the entire bible we find stories that some how leave us with questions, either we are not given enough information, or it just seems that we are left to go figure somehow. Thing that stands out in my mind is this, God's character . Seems that while we would struggle to find out how come this or how come that, somehow that is not what God is teaching us. You see He said that if you search for me with all your heart you will surely find Me. (((Kumba))) touched on one important aspect of God's character, and that He is a searcher of the heart. As we look at these stories God is teaching us not so much about the characters in the stories themselves but rather using them to teach us about Himself. Isn't that what the whole word of God is all about, learning about who God is? soon come back

[Guest]

Re: A Question to Ponder...Cain & Abel

As we look more closely at the story, we mightn't be able to glean more about Cain than that he had an evil nature and because of it he was banished from God's sight and spent his life wandering in the wilderness till he eventually died.

I asked the question of Israel also simply because I saw a correlation between the two, however in Israel's case, because of the promise that God had made to Abraham even though He banished them He also made a promise that He would make a way for them to be redeemed.

I see some beautiful things emerge from the words of this story that tells me about our God...

1.He is Almighty and preeminent, therefore we dare not treat Him as second in anything. We must put Him first and honor with our all hearts as well as the best of what we own, afterall what do we have that God didnot graciously give to us.

2. He is a God of justice. He will repay accordingly as we deserve. He rewarded Abel for his good conduct and his goodness of heart and conversely we see Him rejecting Cain because of his perversity of heart. Then later on He would also banish Cain to roam the earth wantonly because he had murdered his brother.

3. He is a God of mercy or as I like to say a God of second chances. Now look at how merciful He is. a) We see Him warning Cain to see to it that he changes his attitude. But Cain didnot. b) We see Him banishing Cain to outer darkness as it were, but not entirely destroying him, after all he could have. c) We see Him taking pity on Cain after he implored God not to let him be killed whereever he went, and God raised up a standard to protect Cain. This attribute of His Character really impresses me as it should impress everyone else. Stop here for a minute...another question comes to mind. In all of this did it ever occur to Cain to beg God to forgive Him? If he did I don't see it anywhere. Look at the heart of this guy! His only concern was for himself... selfish to the core of his being. So he asked God to spare his skin and God did. Did God know that this fellow was totally depraved. He certainly did.

4. He is a God of Love. Why? Well let me say that He had to be loving to even entertain the likes of Cain to begin with. It was out of love first of all that He sought to correct Cain. And later it was out of love that He bore with his depraved nature in not taking his life all together and even protecting him where ever he would go. Was Cain a happy trooper after this? I bet not.


So this is what I gleaned from this story, and it moves my heart in awe even more of my God and my Lord. But more importantly we also see that this is a true picture of us and how we are before God and unless and until we repent and ask forgiveness and accept His free will offering of eternal life through Jesus Christ we are left to wantonly wander this earth till we die and are banished to eternal darkness.

[Diplomat]

Re: A Question to Ponder...Cain & Abel

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb]Throughout the entire bible we find stories that some how leave us with questions, either we are not given enough information, or it just seems that we are left to go figure somehow. Thing that stands out in my mind is this, God's character . Seems that while we would struggle to find out how come this or how come that, somehow that is not what God is teaching us. You see He said that if you search for me with all your heart you will surely find Me. (((Kumba))) touched on one important aspect of God's character, and that He is a searcher of the heart. As we look at these stories God is teaching us not so much about the characters in the stories themselves but rather using them to teach us about Himself. Isn't that what the whole word of God is all about, learning about who God is? soon come back [/qb]

I do not think anyone take issue with your point at all as it relates to God using the characters and stories to teach us about Himself. I however do not think it is wrong to ask questions, as it is only through the exploration and understanding of the Word that the character of God is revealed. I am of the opinion that the Bible is God's love letter to us, and the more we read and question, the deeper its truths are revealed to our minds by the Holy Spirit. I think serious students of the Bible will be continuously provoked into thinking and asking questions about a lot of what we read, and frankly, I really do not think God objects. After all, it is with the utmost sincerity, respect, and reverence that we question/try to understand that which we read.

[Tropicana]

Re: A Question to Ponder...Cain & Abel

CEW, I was looking for a scriptural reference for the rent a dread thread and low and behold I came across this site that lists a number of Biblical references to Cain and Abel:

http://www.seekgod.org/bible/people/cainabel.html

[Guest]

Re: A Question to Ponder...Cain & Abel

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb]Throughout the entire bible we find stories that some how leave us with questions, either we are not given enough information, or it just seems that we are left to go figure somehow. Thing that stands out in my mind is this, God's character . Seems that while we would struggle to find out how come this or how come that, somehow that is not what God is teaching us. You see He said that if you search for me with all your heart you will surely find Me. (((Kumba))) touched on one important aspect of God's character, and that He is a searcher of the heart. As we look at these stories God is teaching us not so much about the characters in the stories themselves but rather using them to teach us about Himself. Isn't that what the whole word of God is all about, learning about who God is? soon come back [/qb]

I do not think anyone take issue with your point at all as it relates to God using the characters and stories to teach us about Himself. I however do not think it is wrong to ask questions, as it is only through the exploration and understanding of the Word that the character of God is revealed. I am of the opinion that the Bible is God's love letter to us, and the more we read and question, the deeper its truths are revealed to our minds by the Holy Spirit. I think serious students of the Bible will be continuously provoked into thinking and asking questions about a lot of what we read, and frankly, I really do not think God objects. After all, it is with the utmost sincerity, respect, and reverence that we question/try to understand that which we read. [/qb]

Oh I agree with you whole heartedly, but as I said as I continued to ponder the questions more and more that it occurred to me that God is teaching us about himself. Oh by all means I agree with questioning and studying the characters presented to us. Why if we look all around us and make an honest appraisal of the people and situations we encounter we must agree with the Preacher...there is nothing new under the sun whatsoever. But like I said that is what came to me as I struggled with the questions that I posted to you above...but you didn't come back so I just sorta went ahead and concluded on it myself. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[Diplomat]

Re: A Question to Ponder...Cain & Abel

Originally posted by Jedi l:

...but you didn't come back so I just sorta went ahead and concluded on it myself. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Blame it on my having to get some housework done [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] .