Women Of The Bible (WOTB) - Tamar, David's Daughter

[Queen]

Re: Women Of The Bible (WOTB) - Tamar, David's Daughter

From that same website:

- King David heard of this and he was furious, but he would not punish Amnon, because he loved him. David did not remove Tamar's shame, either.

- The fact is that Tamar was abused by Amnon by his raping her.

- Tamar was abused by Absalom by his not listening to her cries of pain.

- Tamar was abused by David by his silence in the face of family violence.

- Tamar was abused by a society which said that a man can get away with rape and a woman who is an innocent victim must bear the shame and disgrace for the rest of her life.

- Tamar was abused by a religion which supported all of the men and ignored the women.


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My take on this story, since Absalom and Amnon, were at each other's throat, violating Tamar was Amnon's way of hurting and tearing Absalom apart. Killing Amnon, his older brother, made Absalom next in line for the throne after David his father. Tamar, unfortunately, was an innocent victim in sibling rivalry.

[Dailybread]

Re: Women Of The Bible (WOTB) - Tamar, David's Daughter

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]

Originally posted by Dailybread:

Okay, I'm going to attempt to get across what I see here. Her brother loved her, he loved her enough to lie with her(not saying he was right)however he did. Immediately after he hated her! He hated her more than he loved her. Which means something caused that to happen. What I can see is that he found out she was not a virgin.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. What we see is Amnon applied pressure on Tamar. She says no. The Bible conveys her fear and desperation. She reminds him that what he is doing is morally wrong and that as David's favored son and heir he could ask to marry her. Yet this was not what Amnon wanted. (verses 9-13). I believe she raised the subject of marriage to protect her dignity. Bear in mind that in that culture, premarital sex was a big taboo, and if she had sex outside of marriage, chances are good she would not have gotten married as no man would have touched her.

Why did he "hate" his half-sister afterwards? Amnon had decided he wanted her because she was physically attractive to him, and having satisfied himself, he had no further use for her. He also knew that he had ruined her life, given the culture of the day. Noticed her plea: "Oh no, brother...Please! This is an even worse evil than what you just did to me!" But he wouldn't listen to her" (v 16)

The Bible records she was a virgin. She wore the clothing that virgins wore from the time they reached adolescence (v 18), and we have no reason to conclude otherwise. Absalom was enraged simply because his sister was raped. That he encouraged her to keep quiet - it is a family matter, he said - speaks also to the culture of the times. There is no doubt in my mind that he wanted his brother dead after that. [/qb]

I see what you are saying CEW. I guess that's why some men that rape women kill them after.

I still have to stand with what I'm seeing here, I'm sure I'm seeing it that way for a reason and not in vain.

[Queen]

Re: Women Of The Bible (WOTB) - Tamar, David's Daughter

By DAilyBread:
Apparently David knew a lot of the going ons and remained out of it. Kinda reminds me of another Bible character Eli I think it was that knew of his son's carrying on and choose not to do anything even after being warned of God.

Thinking of the culture and mindset of the people of those times....women had no rights, men could commit murder and get away with it. David pushed things under the rug because the violator was his son, a man. Why punish him on behalf of a mere woman right? Remember how DAvid cried over the death of Absalom, his son? Even though they were at war against each other? Why didn't he cry for his daughter when she was violated? Remember how the same David lamented over the loss of his baby son born by Bathseba (I think) do you think he would have done the same had that baby been a girl? I doubt it.

His actions reflected the mentality towards women of that era...they had no significant place in society, sad but true.

[Diplomat]

Re: Women Of The Bible (WOTB) - Tamar, David's Daughter

Originally posted by Dailybread:

I see the points that you guys have brought up but, I still see what I see and yes my eyes are opened. I know that it does not mention in the Bible that Absolam had an affair with her but Absolam was no saint remember.

I see a lot of issues in this piece(family)hence my likening it to that of JFK. David being a man of God and knowing that his son had raped his daughter, taking away her dignity did not step in to do anything. He pretended as though he did not know even to the death. Something is wrong here folks. Something is dreadfully wrong. Apparently David knew a lot of the going ons and remained out of it.

As a student of the Bible, you have to bear in mind the culture of the day. Given that his favored son was involved, David's reaction was not at all unusual. I think the following comments from the link Queen posted says it best:

- The fact is that Tamar was abused by Amnon by his raping her.

- Tamar was abused by Absalom by his not listening to her cries of pain.

- Tamar was abused by David by his silence in the face of family violence.

- Tamar was abused by a society which said that a man can get away with rape and a woman who is an innocent victim must bear the shame and disgrace for the rest of her life.

- Tamar was abused by a religion which supported all of the men and ignored the women.

Now that we have looked at the story itself, I am wanting to take this discussion one or two step(s) further by looking at the taboo subjects of incest and rape, and how the Church deals with the victims.

Is anyone familiar with any stories from their congregation? I get the feeling that the Church would much rather not know, or deal with, situations of incest, rape, or molestation. Any thoughts?

I am also somewhat curious if anyone has any perspective as to why God allowed this story in His Word.

[Dailybread]

Re: Women Of The Bible (WOTB) - Tamar, David's Daughter

Originally posted by Queen:
[qb] His actions reflected the mentality towards women of that era...they had no significant place in society, sad but true. [/qb]

I have a thought on this..... I think I'll start another thread in order not to mess up this one.

[Guest]

Re: Women Of The Bible (WOTB) - Tamar, David's Daughter

2 Samuel 13:1  ¶And it came to pass after this, that Absalom the son of David had a fair sister, whose name was Tamar; and Amnon the son of David "loved" her.

A primitive root; to have affection for (sexually or otherwise): - (be-) love (-d, -ly, -r), like, friend.

I'm posting it here for reference. The word "loved" in this text is referring to sexual desire. Real love would not have caused Amnon to rape his sister.

[Dailybread]

Re: Women Of The Bible (WOTB) - Tamar, David's Daughter

Originally posted by CEW:
Now that we have looked at the story itself, I am wanting to take this discussion one or two step(s) further by looking at the taboo subjects of incest and rape, and how the Church deals with the victims.

Is anyone familiar with any stories from their congregation?

I don't know about any personal situations nor have I ever heard of any.

I get the feeling that the Church would much rather not know, or deal with, situations of incest, rape, or molestation. Any thoughts?

I think that the Church is sincere in what they say. That they are there for the people and the people can come to them with just about anything. However, the reality behind teh sincerity is not there. This kinda links with what I was saying yesterday regarding being transparent, for the most part they do not know how to deal with it when faced with it.

I am also somewhat curious if anyone has any perspective as to why God allowed this story in His Word.

Yea, to show us how not to be!

[Queen]

Re: Women Of The Bible (WOTB) - Tamar, David's Daughter

The Mosaic Law concerning the rape of a young girl who is not pledged to be married is recorded in Deuteronomy 22:28-29: "If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her... he must marry the girl, for he has violated her." Tamar begs Amnon to marry her rather than to humiliate her by sending her away. By Israelite custom, if he will not marry her, she will be forced to remain unmarried for the rest of her life. He sends Tamar away, victimizing her not just one, but twice. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

In response to CEW's question for Tamar's story to be in the bible, I think this just about sums it up.

And why didn't her father comfort her? "When King David heard all this, he was furious" (2 Sam.13:21). He certainly was angry that Amnon, his firstborn, had made him complicit. But no thought for Tamar? Did David's failure to intervene merely reflect the values of his time? Tamar is David's only daughter mentioned by name in Scripture. God wanted us to know her story. As shown in David's response, people prefer to ignore crimes of sexual exploitation, molestation and rape, expecting victims to "just get over it." Tamar was deeply damaged by her experience--the rest of her life was affected by it: "Tamar lived in her brother Absalom's house, a desolate woman" (2 Sam.13:20){WoF, 94}.

Tamar reaped what she did not sow. The people who loved her failed her. But God grieved. He saw; He cared. He recorded the details of the crime against her and vindicated her to all generations. We don't know to what degree she recovered over time. Tamar reminds us of all women who have suffered sexual abuse. Scripture does not minimize her suffering......

Source: http://chiomegasecrets.com/tamar.html

[Diplomat]

Re: Women Of The Bible (WOTB) - Tamar, David's Daughter

Queen: That was magnificent and really puts into a lot more words what I was thinking. I also think it was recorded as a message to all victims of rape and incest that God is very much aware of what goes on with them, and that He does care, even when it seems nobody else does.

Edited to add: Something struck me while I was at lunch and it provoked my thinking. Isn't it possible that one of the reasons David did nothing was because he was aware that what was happening in his household was a direct result of the judgement pronounced upon him after his transgression with Bathsheba? The prophet Nathan had prophesied: "Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house..." (2 Samuel 12:11). If you recall, David lusted after Bathsheba, and commited murder so she could have her. Here among both his sons, in his family, we see the same sins: lust and murder.

[DC]

Re: Women Of The Bible (WOTB) - Tamar, David's Daughter

Originally posted by CEW:
Now that we have looked at the story itself, I am wanting to take this discussion one or two step(s) further by looking at the taboo subjects of incest and rape, and how the Church deals with the victims.

Is anyone familiar with any stories from their congregation? I get the feeling that the Church would much rather not know, or deal with, situations of incest, rape, or molestation. Any thoughts?

I am also somewhat curious if anyone has any perspective as to why God allowed this story in His Word. [/QB]

Sadly the Church-in my experience-does not seem to truly know how to deal with such situations. Having conversed( and counseled)women within the church who were victims of one or more of these situations and the effect it has on their marriage, family and ultimatly God is tremendous. I really believe each church need to have a trained counselor on staff to deal with these occurences because they do exist within the church body. It's is just funny you mentioned this and I just happened to begin to read this thread and just popped in for a second to share.
Someone was sharing with me-just today-on one this issue. The person had no one to turn to talk about it. I guess I can share this since no one really knows me or her. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] This person-a real woman of God- was raped by her brother as a little girl, got pregnant and was todl to abort the child. She is currently in a physically abusive marial relationship. Of course the advice given is to get out of there now. The sad thing is they are both children of God. Oh yes, they do exist! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
She is now beginning to wrestle with her relationship with God and understandably so. I have seen many emotional miracles happen but I continue to find it amazing that the victims find it hard to speak to the Pastors or leaders. Shame is such a painful emotion and maybe the message getting across from the pulpit is not one of compassion or understanding but one of embarrasment or guilt (my opinion). I think the story of Tamar should be preached from the pulpits more often. Now I do not speak for all churches. Only the ones in my experiences.
You know, that is why I appreciate Bishop TD Jakes(mi noh care what nobaddy say bout di man), a man who is bold enough to care about women issues and bold enough to talk about them and deal with them wiht such bold compassion. I tell you if many local Pastors do follow this bold stance, I am pretty sure you will find a lot more healing taking place within the body on a whole-one church at a time. Each one reach one( Beluved's signature line and I like it).
I know that God is working because I still believe that when you see nothing, that's when God is up to something and I still believe that the Church is His heart so I am not worried there. But reality can be overwhelming at times.

Okay-mi gone again! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Queen]

Re: Women Of The Bible (WOTB) - Tamar, David's Daughter

Wow, DC, that's a sad story about that young lady you're familiar with. With regard to her rape, did she ever seek counselling from a christian counsellor? If so, How did that counsellor or church deal with it?

[Guest]

Re: Women Of The Bible (WOTB) - Tamar, David's Daughter

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb] I am also somewhat curious if anyone has any perspective as to why God allowed this story in His Word. [/qb]

Rape is primarily looked at as the woman's fault. What did she do why he raped her? What was she wearing? How was she walking? etc. etc.

Tamar was a beautiful and wealthy woman. Look at the lineage that she was a part of. Through no fault of her own, she was raped. I believe this story also stands to help women not to blame themselves when such crimes are committed against them.

[DC]

Re: Women Of The Bible (WOTB) - Tamar, David's Daughter

Originally posted by Queen:
[qb] Wow, DC, that's a sad story about that young lady you're familiar with. With regard to her rape, did she ever seek counselling from a christian counsellor? If so, How did that counsellor or church deal with it? [/qb]

Sorry Queen. I am just getting back to this. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

As far as I understand, no she has not. Fear, shame and guilt has a lot to do with it. However, thats the encouragement she is receiving right now-to seek out a counselor. There is a lot more to do with this but I just shared that much in light of Tamar's situation and as it relates to christendom today. This is just one of the many stories. The reluctance to talk to someone within the church is more prevalent within the Caribbean culture-at least that is what I have noticed after talking with people from the varying islands. There are men who have even admitted to certain instances of molestation as children and never spoken about it but it had affected their lives within their marraiges and ministries. Some do have leadership positions in church.
It is a sad cycle-but certainly not a hopeless one [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] . As I said there are miracle stories but as far as CEW's comment in wondering if the church is open or understand and know how to deal with situations like these-I'd have to say that there need to be some more work done in that area-my humble opinion at least [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Well, that's my two cents. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Diplomat]

Re: Women Of The Bible (WOTB) - Tamar, David's Daughter

Originally posted by DC:

There are men who have even admitted to certain instances of molestation as children and never spoken about it but it had affected their lives within their marraiges and ministries. Some do have leadership positions in church.

It is a sad cycle-but certainly not a hopeless one [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] . As I said there are miracle stories but as far as CEW's comment in wondering if the church is open or understand and know how to deal with situations like these-I'd have to say that there need to be some more work done in that area-my humble opinion at least [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I would have to strongly agree with you here. I think a part of the problem is that most ministers while sensitive to the issue, may not have the proper training to help most victims. Churches tend to take a spiritual approach and will pray hoping the victims are able to deal with the problem, but there are no practical steps taken to facilitate the healing of the psychological, mental, and emotional scars. Some of these victims are wives, mothers, husbands, fathers, professionals, clergy, and so on, who are unable to effectively function in their roles because of the dark secret(s) they are forced to carry.

There is also the issue of shame, and unfortunately, some people do tend to want to blame the victims. In fact, some commentators did blame Tamar for being alone with her brother in his room! This same attitude prevails in a lot of places today, and so we tend to view victims as being somewhat culpable. If they did not wear that type of clothing, if they weren't so friendly, and so on, totally ignoring that these people - including children - are victims.

That is why I have a tremendous appreciation for "Woman, Thou Art Loosed" conferences, and similar ones like it, as they seek to empower women to reclaim through God that which was stolen from them.