The Jesus question(s)

[Mutty]

Since I raised a few eyebrows in the Passion of Christ thread, I want to bring these items up ONE more time. It appears no one read them the first time I brought them up or decided to stay mum, but when I raised doubt about the existence of Jesus or doubted the grand scheme 4 writers wove for him, I was questioned. Well here are some questions regarding Jesus.

1. Why is his death under the rule of Pontius Pilate not mentioned in Roman records or anybody else's records for that matter?

2. Considering that the Gospels mention a few times that his fame spread throughout the region, why is it that nobody cared to write about him other than the Gospel writers. The person in question allegedly walked on water, raised up the dead on more than one occasion, healed people, cast out demons, stilled storms, fed thousands miraculously, gave sight to blind men, cleansed lepers, actually rose from the dead himself and no historian or writer of the day cared to mention any of this? These are not your every day events in ANY era.

3. Why is it that an apparent holocaust which involved the deaths of hundreds and maybe thousands of infants at the command of King Herod not recorded anywhere but in the Gospels?

4. How were the Gospel writers made aware of Jesus' private thoughts or what he prayed in solitude or knew when he read people's thoughts? Who informed them?

5. Why is it that the most used reference to Jesus outside the Gospels (Josephus' alleged account) considered a forgery considering the oldest copies of his work, Antiquities has no mention of the said account, but it mysteriously appears in a 4th century copy presented by the ever unscrupulous Church historian, Eusebius? No other church father before him referred to Josephus' alleged mention of Jesus which would have suited their cause perfectly, but Eusebius comes out of nowhere with a copy of the alleged passage.

6. Where was one of the greatest Jewish minds and writers of the day who was a contemporary of Jesus when Jesus was sending excitement through the land. Yes, where was the great Philo?

7. If you had no Bible and all the subsequent books written to prove Jesus or disprove him were never written, could you honestly read historical writings from the era in which Jesus lived and come to a conclusion he existed in a way the Gospels said he did?

8. Can you even begin to be objective on this matter at all?


__________________

[chazproductions]

Re: The Jesus question(s)

Hey Mutty. You already know my feelings in this regards somewhat already. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] Good luck. Mi ah wait fi si di ansah dem. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img]

[Guest]

Re: The Jesus question(s)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
Since I raised a few eyebrows in the Passion of Christ thread, I want to bring these items up ONE more time. It appears no one read them the first time I brought them up or decided to stay mum, but when I raised doubt about the existence of Jesus or doubted the grand scheme 4 writers wove for him, I was questioned. Well here are some questions regarding Jesus.

1. Why is his death under the rule of Pontius Pilate not mentioned in Roman records or anybody else's records for that matter?

2. Considering that the Gospels mention a few times that his fame spread throughout the region, why is it that nobody cared to write about him other than the Gospel writers. The person in question allegedly walked on water, raised up the dead on more than one occasion, healed people, cast out demons, stilled storms, fed thousands miraculously, gave sight to blind men, cleansed lepers, actually rose from the dead himself and no historian or writer of the day cared to mention any of this? These are not your every day events in ANY era.

3. Why is it that an apparent holocaust which involved the deaths of hundreds and maybe thousands of infants at the command of King Herod not recorded anywhere but in the Gospels?

4. How were the Gospel writers made aware of Jesus' private thoughts or what he prayed in solitude or knew when he read people's thoughts? Who informed them?

5. Why is it that the most used reference to Jesus outside the Gospels (Josephus' alleged account) considered a forgery considering the oldest copies of his work, Antiquities has no mention of the said account, but it mysteriously appears in a 4th century copy presented by the ever unscrupulous Church historian, Eusebius? No other church father before him referred to Josephus' alleged mention of Jesus which would have suited their cause perfectly, but Eusebius comes out of nowhere with a copy of the alleged passage.

6. Where was one of the greatest Jewish minds and writers of the day who was a contemporary of Jesus when Jesus was sending excitement through the land. Yes, where was the great Philo?

7. If you had no Bible and all the subsequent books written to prove Jesus or disprove him were never written, could you honestly read historical writings from the era in which Jesus lived and come to a conclusion he existed in a way the Gospels said he did?

8. Can you even begin to be objective on this matter at all?


__________________ [/QB]

Mutty, I am sorry and I must confess that I am one of those who have absented myself from your threads mainly because I haven't a clue especially when you discuss things like the nephilim and other things that the Bible is not clear about, plus you seem to be very selective yourself about whose threads you respond to, so I figured I would leave yours alone (no offense I have often gotten the sense that you would rather not have any dealings with me because I have called to you on several occasions and you have not responded. Now regarding the questions you have posed I think they may have validity and I donot have any immediate answers but I will certainly do some research and come back to this. It may take a while to get a response back from my source but if the thread is cleared away by then I will restart it again. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[yardy]

Re: The Jesus question(s)

1. Why is his death under the rule of Pontius Pilate not mentioned in Roman records or anybody else's records for that matter?

Pontius Pilate poses a major problem for the historian.It is simply not something that anyone would make up! In addition, the Roman historian Tacitus records that Jesus was executed in the time of Pontius Pilate. So the fact that Jesus was crucified is a secure and reliable piece of historical data.

2. Considering that the Gospels mention a few times that his fame spread throughout the region, why is it that nobody cared to write about him other than the Gospel writers. The person in question allegedly walked on water, raised up the dead on more than one occasion, healed people, cast out demons, stilled storms, fed thousands miraculously, gave sight to blind men, cleansed lepers, actually rose from the dead himself and no historian or writer of the day cared to mention any of this? These are not your every day events in ANY era.

Because the people who wrote the gospel wrote under the influence of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit made sure that what they wrote was accurate.I have absolute confidence that the gospels as well as the other books of the Bible are accurate and true

I will be back [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Mutty]

Re: The Jesus question(s)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb]

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
Since I raised a few eyebrows in the Passion of Christ thread, I want to bring these items up ONE more time. It appears no one read them the first time I brought them up or decided to stay mum, but when I raised doubt about the existence of Jesus or doubted the grand scheme 4 writers wove for him, I was questioned. Well here are some questions regarding Jesus.

1. Why is his death under the rule of Pontius Pilate not mentioned in Roman records or anybody else's records for that matter?

2. Considering that the Gospels mention a few times that his fame spread throughout the region, why is it that nobody cared to write about him other than the Gospel writers. The person in question allegedly walked on water, raised up the dead on more than one occasion, healed people, cast out demons, stilled storms, fed thousands miraculously, gave sight to blind men, cleansed lepers, actually rose from the dead himself and no historian or writer of the day cared to mention any of this? These are not your every day events in ANY era.

3. Why is it that an apparent holocaust which involved the deaths of hundreds and maybe thousands of infants at the command of King Herod not recorded anywhere but in the Gospels?

4. How were the Gospel writers made aware of Jesus' private thoughts or what he prayed in solitude or knew when he read people's thoughts? Who informed them?

5. Why is it that the most used reference to Jesus outside the Gospels (Josephus' alleged account) considered a forgery considering the oldest copies of his work, Antiquities has no mention of the said account, but it mysteriously appears in a 4th century copy presented by the ever unscrupulous Church historian, Eusebius? No other church father before him referred to Josephus' alleged mention of Jesus which would have suited their cause perfectly, but Eusebius comes out of nowhere with a copy of the alleged passage.

6. Where was one of the greatest Jewish minds and writers of the day who was a contemporary of Jesus when Jesus was sending excitement through the land. Yes, where was the great Philo?

7. If you had no Bible and all the subsequent books written to prove Jesus or disprove him were never written, could you honestly read historical writings from the era in which Jesus lived and come to a conclusion he existed in a way the Gospels said he did?

8. Can you even begin to be objective on this matter at all?


__________________ [/qb]

Mutty, I am sorry and I must confess that I am one of those who have absented myself from your threads mainly because I haven't a clue especially when you discuss things like the nephilim and other things that the Bible is not clear about, plus you seem to be very selective yourself about whose threads you respond to, so I figured I would leave yours alone (no offense I have often gotten the sense that you would rather not have any dealings with me because I have called to you on several occasions and you have not responded. Now regarding the questions you have posed I think they may have validity and I donot have any immediate answers but I will certainly do some research and come back to this. It may take a while to get a response back from my source but if the thread is cleared away by then I will restart it again. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [/QB]

[Mutty]

Re: The Jesus question(s)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb]

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
Since I raised a few eyebrows in the Passion of Christ thread, I want to bring these items up ONE more time. It appears no one read them the first time I brought them up or decided to stay mum, but when I raised doubt about the existence of Jesus or doubted the grand scheme 4 writers wove for him, I was questioned. Well here are some questions regarding Jesus.

1. Why is his death under the rule of Pontius Pilate not mentioned in Roman records or anybody else's records for that matter?

2. Considering that the Gospels mention a few times that his fame spread throughout the region, why is it that nobody cared to write about him other than the Gospel writers. The person in question allegedly walked on water, raised up the dead on more than one occasion, healed people, cast out demons, stilled storms, fed thousands miraculously, gave sight to blind men, cleansed lepers, actually rose from the dead himself and no historian or writer of the day cared to mention any of this? These are not your every day events in ANY era.

3. Why is it that an apparent holocaust which involved the deaths of hundreds and maybe thousands of infants at the command of King Herod not recorded anywhere but in the Gospels?

4. How were the Gospel writers made aware of Jesus' private thoughts or what he prayed in solitude or knew when he read people's thoughts? Who informed them?

5. Why is it that the most used reference to Jesus outside the Gospels (Josephus' alleged account) considered a forgery considering the oldest copies of his work, Antiquities has no mention of the said account, but it mysteriously appears in a 4th century copy presented by the ever unscrupulous Church historian, Eusebius? No other church father before him referred to Josephus' alleged mention of Jesus which would have suited their cause perfectly, but Eusebius comes out of nowhere with a copy of the alleged passage.

6. Where was one of the greatest Jewish minds and writers of the day who was a contemporary of Jesus when Jesus was sending excitement through the land. Yes, where was the great Philo?

7. If you had no Bible and all the subsequent books written to prove Jesus or disprove him were never written, could you honestly read historical writings from the era in which Jesus lived and come to a conclusion he existed in a way the Gospels said he did?

8. Can you even begin to be objective on this matter at all?


__________________ [/qb]

Mutty, I am sorry and I must confess that I am one of those who have absented myself from your threads mainly because I haven't a clue especially when you discuss things like the nephilim and other things that the Bible is not clear about, plus you seem to be very selective yourself about whose threads you respond to, so I figured I would leave yours alone (no offense I have often gotten the sense that you would rather not have any dealings with me because I have called to you on several occasions and you have not responded. Now regarding the questions you have posed I think they may have validity and I donot have any immediate answers but I will certainly do some research and come back to this. It may take a while to get a response back from my source but if the thread is cleared away by then I will restart it again. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [/QB]

Jedi forgive me if I missed your "call outs." I don't think I saw them or if I did, I did not respond immediately and forgot later on. There was no underlying reasons for this so don't think anything beyond that, ok?

I do not come to this site as often I used to. I have said that more and more. It has nothing to do with anyone here. It's just that at the end of the day it is a Jamaican site and I am not Jamaican so I spend my time over on a more wider Caribbean oriented site where I pose some of these same questions and issues.

If you have ever paid close attention to my subjects on this forum, I have always dealt with deeper things in relation to the Bible and religious history. From the days of my childhood questioning my Catholic grandmother about why did we have to bow before images when it went against the second commandment to now, I will ALWAYS question things that make NO sense to me. I bring these questions to the forum because I realize if people are honest with themselves, they will realize something is amiss with the things in the Bible. Some won't admit it of couse because beliefs die hard and if those beliefs ride on fear or reward, they can motivate people to see what isn't there and hear what they want to hear.

It has always been my style to make people think. I do not like to tell people what they have to do. I leave the questions out there, add my opinion, but at the end of the day the everyone has to come to their own decisions.

[Mutty]

Re: The Jesus question(s)

Originally posted by yardy:
[qb] 1. Why is his death under the rule of Pontius Pilate not mentioned in Roman records or anybody else's records for that matter?

Pontius Pilate poses a major problem for the historian.It is simply not something that anyone would make up! In addition, the Roman historian Tacitus records that Jesus was executed in the time of Pontius Pilate. So the fact that Jesus was crucified is a secure and reliable piece of historical data.

2. Considering that the Gospels mention a few times that his fame spread throughout the region, why is it that nobody cared to write about him other than the Gospel writers. The person in question allegedly walked on water, raised up the dead on more than one occasion, healed people, cast out demons, stilled storms, fed thousands miraculously, gave sight to blind men, cleansed lepers, actually rose from the dead himself and no historian or writer of the day cared to mention any of this? These are not your every day events in ANY era.

Because the people who wrote the gospel wrote under the influence of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit made sure that what they wrote was accurate.I have absolute confidence that the gospels as well as the other books of the Bible are accurate and true

I will be back [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [/qb]

In relation to your first statement, you might want to consider that Tacitus could have simply been reciting what was already a growing legend amongst the Christians. He wrote his piece nearly 100 years after Jesus allegedly lived and died. Secondly, the Jesus he spoke of could have been any Jesus, as the name was very popular during that era. In the writings of Josephus there were a few Jesus' mentioned - one a leader of a bunch of anti-Roman seamen, another was a captain of some robbers who all took off when he was arrested and there was another one that walked up and down Jerusalem for 7 years, crying, "Woe, woe, woe unto Jerusalem!" He was eventualy killed. Maybe there are some things relating to these other Jesuses that might sound very familar.

Tacitus also refers to Jesus as "Christ" which was NOT a surname. It was a title meaning "anointed." Again, this sounds like something he was repeating as opposed to actually affirming as some kind of personal conviction.

As for your last comment. Once you toss out the "Holy Spirit" card, objectivity and any possible reply is trumped.

[Mutty]

Re: The Jesus question(s)

Then there are those who ask how is it possible to not believe in Jesus and still believe in God. Well that is the path of Christianity, but bear in mind that Jesus might not have been all he was cracked up to be as I am pointing out in this thread and that the idea of God as told by the Jews is one of theirGod going from tribal god to universal God. Where they ended up in their theology (believing in One God with no others existing) is not where they started out (believing their God to be one God amongst many others who required strict allegiance to him only). In fact, he was actually given Israel as his inheritance from the hand of a God greater than he. Later Jewish editors tried to edit out this fact and then via further editing merged their God Yahweh with the supreme regional deity, El (Elyon) - the Most High God._

Yes, I know, the eyebrows have gone up and this is news to some of you. You'll live. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Guest]

Re: The Jesus question(s)

Yes, I know, the eyebrows have gone up and this is news to some of you. You'll live.



The greater question is how will you live? For you and I both know that once a Christian, the Spirit of God is at work in our lives, and I am sure that you have experienced this, so where will you go to hide from God?

[Mutty]

Re: The Jesus question(s)

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] Yes, I know, the eyebrows have gone up and this is news to some of you. You'll live.



The greater question is how will you live? For you and I both know that once a Christian, the Spirit of God is at work in our lives, and I am sure that you have experienced this, so where will you go to hide from God? [/qb]

And what is 'the Spirit' going to do in my life that I cannot discipline myself to do? Can't I do every and anything any Christian is supposed to do?

I have no reason to hide from God. My point simply is, I have read the Jewish and Christian account (Bible) of God many times over and I decided to stop shoving the contradictions, obvious biases, unreconciled passages and overt nonsensical passages under a rug hoping for God to expalin it to me in the sweet by and by. Why would I want to know about it then or even care?

If you look at the Bible from a historical perspective, in the old as in the new, we are reading the victors side of the story. The ancient Jews had Baalists, Yahwehists, and Elohists all fighting for the allegiance of the people. The Baalists lost (in the days of Elijah and beyond) and we know what happened to their priests. It was not going to work with people taking their money and giving it over to foreign temple coffers when the Yahwehist priest had their own monetary needs to be met so kill those priests of Baal, eliminate their story and stamp yours as fact.

Beyond Elijah, we read of three bloody religious purges. One by Elijah, one by Jehu and one by Josiah. In the name of the Lord (Yahweh) they eliminated the competition and they barefacedly tell us so, but this is lost to the "by faith" beleivers. Fast forward to the post New Testament era and we have Trinitarians at war with non Trinitarians and we all know who won that battle after much blood inthe name of Christ and "the truth" of course. It's their sanctioned version of Jesus you now read.

[servant]

Re: The Jesus question(s)

Mutty, how do you account for the resilience of this pack of lies.

[Diplomat]

Re: The Jesus question(s)

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:

And what is 'the Spirit' going to do in my life that I cannot discipline myself to do? Can't I do every and anything any Christian is supposed to do?

Isn't that a case for moralism? Throw the Holy Spirit and the redeeming work of Christ out of the life of the believer, and what do we have left? Right standing with God by works?

One other thing: how do you decide which parts of the Bible to throw out, and which parts to keep?

[Mutty]

Re: The Jesus question(s)

Originally posted by servant:
[qb] Mutty, how do you account for the resilience of this pack of lies. [/qb]

Servant, please show me the lies? I think I am intelligent enough to be able to make some sense out of clues given and gather some sense of structure in regards to some how things came about.


CEW, I used to ask the same question. How does one know? Well for starters there are some that are very obvious, but from how I was taught, there should NOT be one error in God's words. If there is, then is it still God's word? Yes I know the old, "well the original autographs were inspired," but if that is the case, then what is it that we read today? Uninspired copies?

[Mutty]

Re: The Jesus question(s)

From CEW:

"Isn't that a case for moralism? Throw the Holy Spirit and the redeeming work of Christ out of the life of the believer, and what do we have left? Right standing with God by works?"


And where would the unbeliever be a detriment to society or himself if he was able to duplicate in his or her own life all that Christians strive to live by? Would not the only major difference be that one is supposedly going to heaven (because he accepted Christ) and the other going to hell (because he did not)? The only "peace of mind" he or she may not have is that the Christian tells him he is not going to heaven. That's if he or she even cares.

[servant]

Re: The Jesus question(s)

Mutty, I was referring to Bible.