[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
[qb]
Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] Yes, I know, the eyebrows have gone up and this is news to some of you. You'll live.
The greater question is how will you live? For you and I both know that once a Christian, the Spirit of God is at work in our lives, and I am sure that you have experienced this, so where will you go to hide from God? [/qb]
And what is 'the Spirit' going to do in my life that I cannot discipline myself to do? Can't I do every and anything any Christian is supposed
.Have you been doing it? Have you been earnestly trying to live and do every and anything that Christians are supposed to do? or has repeated failure to do so caused you to give up trying?
.Have you really done an honest appraisal of yourself and come to the conclusion that you are living as God would want you to live (-) belief in Christ as the atoning sacrifice for your failures?
I have no reason to hide from God.
You have no shame in otherwords, but really none of us can hide from God.
My point simply is, I have read the Jewish and Christian account (Bible) of God many times over and I decided to stop shoving the contradictions, obvious biases, unreconciled passages and overt nonsensical passages under a rug hoping for God to expalin it to me in the sweet by and by.
So then you drew your own conclusions based on your own studies branded it "TRUTH" and decided that it was all fiction.
Why would I want to know about it then or even care?
Well first of all we are promised that - "Now we see darkly through a glass but then we shall know all things" and in another place Jesus said - "All things done in darkness shall come to light". But I guess you couldn't wait so you delved ahead with the result of what? Do you believe that you are now more knowledgeable than before? What good is that information to you now anyways now that you have lost the most precious thing you had which is your "FAITH"? And if the magnitude of the truth was revealed to you about those things hidden in secret that only God knows could you honestly say that you would be able to deal with it?
If you look at the Bible from a historical perspective, in the old as in the new, we are reading the victors side of the story.
If you look at the Bible from a purely historical perspective, it should strike you very strongly that the victors were outnumbered by those who lost, that alone should convince you that there was another force at work to cause them to win.
Beyond Elijah, we read of three bloody religious purges. One by Elijah, one by Jehu and one by Josiah. In the name of the Lord (Yahweh) they eliminated the competition and they barefacedly tell us so, but this is lost to the "by faith" beleivers.
And again in each case these people were outnumbered by their opponents, they did not even have the strength of battallion as their opponents, so how did they win? I beleive you missed the point, in every case it was God who helped them to win. But better yet what should they have done lied down and be defeated by their opponents? Yet we see that when God took his favor from them for their disobedience they were taken into captivity by their enimies. Read on Mutty tell the full story.
Fast forward to the post New Testament era and we have Trinitarians at war with non Trinitarians and we all know who won that battle after much blood inthe name of Christ and "the truth" of course. It's their sanctioned version of Jesus you now read.
See now you are obviously appealing for sympathy to your cause and I am quite sure there are many who are opposed to Trinitarian doctrine who would just love to jump in and applaud you. But you fast fowarded too fast. Hence I see many distorted facts. While you appeared to have pursued the history of the Jews and Christians, you failed or neglected to study or pursue God. Fast foward past the New Testament? there is where you made an error you didnot spend enough time studying it, you probably missed the the entire story because you were searching for mans-story, not His-story.
My guess is right now...you are not living up to any kind of biblical standards, matter of fact I am willing to wager that there has been many a falling aways which has brought you to justify yourself by taking this stance i.e. Deny God and your sins will go away.
Jedi I again you have completely and utterly missed the man's point. He is not denying God. He is just asking some interesting questions to get people thinking. It's funny how you are on this high horse judging another when only God is capable of doing so. Even if you disagree or dislike Mutty's questions you don't need to resort to name calling, it's very unbecoming.
Originally posted by chazproductions:
[qb] Jedi I again you have completely and utterly missed the man's point. He is not denying God. He is just asking some interesting questions to get people thinking. It's funny how you are on this high horse judging another when only God is capable of doing so. Even if you disagree or dislike Mutty's questions you don't need to resort to name calling, it's very unbecoming. [/qb]
Ignoring the rest of your comments, please show me the names and I will be more than happy to retract them. BTW how is your bible study coming? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] Yes, I know, the eyebrows have gone up and this is news to some of you. You'll live.
The greater question is how will you live? For you and I both know that once a Christian, the Spirit of God is at work in our lives, and I am sure that you have experienced this, so where will you go to hide from God? [/qb]
And what is 'the Spirit' going to do in my life that I cannot discipline myself to do? Can't I do every and anything any Christian is supposed
.Have you been doing it? Have you been earnestly trying to live and do every and anything that Christians are supposed to do? or has repeated failure to do so caused you to give up trying?
.Have you really done an honest appraisal of yourself and come to the conclusion that you are living as God would want you to live (-) belief in Christ as the atoning sacrifice for your failures?
I have no reason to hide from God.
You have no shame in otherwords, but really none of us can hide from God.
My point simply is, I have read the Jewish and Christian account (Bible) of God many times over and I decided to stop shoving the contradictions, obvious biases, unreconciled passages and overt nonsensical passages under a rug hoping for God to expalin it to me in the sweet by and by.
So then you drew your own conclusions based on your own studies branded it "TRUTH" and decided that it was all fiction.
Why would I want to know about it then or even care?
Well first of all we are promised that - "Now we see darkly through a glass but then we shall know all things" and in another place Jesus said - "All things done in darkness shall come to light". But I guess you couldn't wait so you delved ahead with the result of what? Do you believe that you are now more knowledgeable than before? What good is that information to you now anyways now that you have lost the most precious thing you had which is your "FAITH"? And if the magnitude of the truth was revealed to you about those things hidden in secret that only God knows could you honestly say that you would be able to deal with it?
If you look at the Bible from a historical perspective, in the old as in the new, we are reading the victors side of the story.
If you look at the Bible from a purely historical perspective, it should strike you very strongly that the victors were outnumbered by those who lost, that alone should convince you that there was another force at work to cause them to win.
Beyond Elijah, we read of three bloody religious purges. One by Elijah, one by Jehu and one by Josiah. In the name of the Lord (Yahweh) they eliminated the competition and they barefacedly tell us so, but this is lost to the "by faith" beleivers.
And again in each case these people were outnumbered by their opponents, they did not even have the strength of battallion as their opponents, so how did they win? I beleive you missed the point, in every case it was God who helped them to win. But better yet what should they have done lied down and be defeated by their opponents? Yet we see that when God took his favor from them for their disobedience they were taken into captivity by their enimies. Read on Mutty tell the full story.
Fast forward to the post New Testament era and we have Trinitarians at war with non Trinitarians and we all know who won that battle after much blood inthe name of Christ and "the truth" of course. It's their sanctioned version of Jesus you now read.
See now you are obviously appealing for sympathy to your cause and I am quite sure there are many who are opposed to Trinitarian doctrine who would just love to jump in and applaud you. But you fast fowarded too fast. Hence I see many distorted facts. While you appeared to have pursued the history of the Jews and Christians, you failed or neglected to study or pursue God. Fast foward past the New Testament? there is where you made an error you didnot spend enough time studying it, you probably missed the the entire story because you were searching for mans-story, not His-story.
My guess is right now...you are not living up to any kind of biblical standards, matter of fact I am willing to wager that there has been many a falling aways which has brought you to justify yourself by taking this stance i.e. Deny God and your sins will go away. [/qb]
Wow Jedi! You sure said a mouthful. You almost sounded like I am now fresh meat for the kill. LOL!!!
FROM JEDI:
".Have you been doing it? Have you been earnestly trying to live and do every and anything that Christians are supposed to do? or has repeated failure to do so caused you to give up trying?
.Have you really done an honest appraisal of yourself and come to the conclusion that you are living as God would want you to live (-) belief in Christ as the atoning sacrifice for your failures?"
MY RESPONSE:
Jedi, I have not given up what has always been my character. There nothing different I do now than when I professed to be a Christian other than go to church. I don't drink. I don't smoke or do drugs and never have. I treat my fellowman with respect and I do not hate people. I honor my mother and father. I respect myself. I don't go out partying nor do I visit clubs. I'm generous with my time and money (the little I have). What I am saying is that I do not do the things Christians tend to look at as a mark of a Christian. These things are not even issues for me. They're like second nature. This has NOTHING to do with failure. It has all to do with looking at the stuff in black and white and realizing it does not all mesh.
I am not a teenager buckling under peer pressure wanting to go to parties, clubs or to try some weed. It's not like I am craving to be like "normal kids" and since I can't deal with the temptations I gave up. Jedi, it's not about that so you can scratch that out of your mind, ok?
FROM JEDI:
"Well first of all we are promised that - "Now we see darkly through a glass but then we shall know all things" and in another place Jesus said - "All things done in darkness shall come to light". But I guess you couldn't wait so you delved ahead with the result of what? Do you believe that you are now more knowledgeable than before? What good is that information to you now anyways now that you have lost the most precious thing you had which is your "FAITH"? And if the magnitude of the truth was revealed to you about those things hidden in secret that only God knows could you honestly say that you would be able to deal with it?"
MY RESPONSE:
Again Jedi, don't go assuming, ok? I could not wait for what? For contradictions to clear up and for blatant biblcal editing to suit a particular view disappear? The information is good for me because it helps me to know where NOT to put my faith as wel as give me a clearer perspective of the wider picture. If losing my faith was going to turn me into the next Ted Bundy or cause me to destroy myself with reckless living, then you could worry.
The issues I look at has nothing to do with God hiding anything. They are clear problems anyone who cares to look at objectively can see. In fact, you have not even touched one question I raised in the opening post. Are there any of them you have any answers for? Are these things God has hidden to reveal to us in the sweet by and by? Funny how he has hidden Herod's Massacre, for example, from everyone but Matthew who then compounds the mess by claiming it was a prophecy from Jeremiah. Yeah right. Look it up for yourself and tell me if the alleged prophecy is not WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY of base within the context of the chapter. This is what you get for trying to force Jesus to fit into a prophecy and looking stupid doing it.
FROM JEDI:
" And again in each case these people were outnumbered by their opponents, they did not even have the strength of battallion as their opponents, so how did they win? I beleive you missed the point, in every case it was God who helped them to win. But better yet what should they have done lied down and be defeated by their opponents? Yet we see that when God took his favor from them for their disobedience they were taken into captivity by their enimies. Read on Mutty tell the full story."
MY RESPONSE:
Elijah won when in the euphoria of a victory of Yahweh over Baal's priests, he managed to gain the backing of the people to slaughter 500 priests of Baal. Does this not sound like elimination of the competition? I'm sure that on that day, the priests of Baal were far outnumbered. Jezebel killed Yahweh's servants and she is stigmatized as a murderer. Elijah returns the favor and he's a hero of faith.
Jehu was king when he carried out his act. we are told his intention was to kill all of Baal's priests, probably riding popular sentiment of the times started by Elijah. Jezebel was apparently hated and she being a foreigner brought Baal into Israel as the offical religion, transplanting the religion of Yahweh, effectively putting the Yahwehist priesthood out of business. In fact, she sought to kill all worshippers of Yahweh. With Jehu having her killed, it was also time to remove her influence which was Baalism. In any event, Jehu through deceit and treachery murdered the priests of Baal in premeditated cold blood thus effectively purging Baalism from Israel.
Josiah was king when he carried out his purge. In fact, he added the extra thrill of burning the bones of the wayward priests of the foregin gods upon their own altars. He obviously had help at age 12 and the driving force were the priests of Yahweh led by Hilkiah who also happened to be the father of Jeremiah, the great prophet of Josiah's reign. It is obvious there was an agenda to eliminate the competition and during this period of peace under Josiah, the priests of Yahweh sought to re-establish the status they lost under Ahaz. Guess what came out of this neat little scenario? The book of the Law. How coincidental and convienient.
So in none of these cases did the slain outnumber the victor or were in a position to win.
FROM JEDI:
"See now you are obviously appealing for sympathy to your cause and I am quite sure there are many who are opposed to Trinitarian doctrine who would just love to jump in and applaud you. But you fast fowarded too fast. Hence I see many distorted facts. While you appeared to have pursued the history of the Jews and Christians, you failed or neglected to study or pursue God. Fast foward past the New Testament? there is where you made an error you didnot spend enough time studying it, you probably missed the the entire story because you were searching for mans-story, not His-story."
MY RESPONSE:
I am not appealing to the cause of trinitarians or non trinitarians. For the record, I grew up trinitarian. I simply brought it up to point out that after the ascendency of Christianity under Constantine, this began a period where Christians rose from being the persecuted to being the persecutor. They even persecuted other Christians whom they labeled heretics for holding views contrary to what was sanctioned by the state. Again, elimination of the competiton and their cherished scriptures. What was left was the state's sanctioned scriptures and dogma.
Jedi you obviously mistake me for some tag along Christian. That Bible you hold so dear I have read and studied from cover to cover more than 5 times. I did not simply read my Bible. I studied it. I know the whole story of the so-called theme the Bible presents. I know the standard Christian arguments, apologetics and explanations. My life was tied up in church for over 2 decades where I never lost a Bible quiz or Bible drill. Mention a scripture and I knew where to find it. I was so anal about these things I would be the one to discect I Chronicles chapter 1 through 9. I would the one to make the connection on remote and obscure scriptures that David's trusted advisor who turned against him to side with Absalom was also the grandfather of Bathsheba. How many Christians are even aware of this and know where to find the scriptures that make the link? No Jedi, you don't begin to even know me when it comes to the Bible.
FROM JEDI:
"My guess is right now...you are not living up to any kind of biblical standards, matter of fact I am willing to wager that there has been many a falling aways which has brought you to justify yourself by taking this stance i.e. Deny God and your sins will go away."
MY RESPONSE:
Again Jedi, you are way off. This has nothing to do with "falling aways" as you put it. This has everything to do with what I held true most of my life (the Bible) is not the perfection I thought it once was. Take your focus off me and deal with the questions in the orginal post. After all, this thread is not supposed to be about "Analyzing Mutty." It's about the questions up top. Go ahead! Let's see if you can present any sane answers. Thanks.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb]
[Wow Jedi! You sure said a mouthful. You almost sounded like I am now fresh meat for the kill. LOL!!!
Mutty I was simply responding to your response to me.
MY RESPONSE:
Jedi, I have not given up what has always been my character. There nothing different I do now than when I professed to be a Christian other than go to church. I don't drink. I don't smoke or do drugs and never have. I treat my fellowman with respect and I do not hate people. I honor my mother and father. I respect myself. I don't go out partying nor do I visit clubs. I'm generous with my time and money (the little I have). What I am saying is that I do not do the things Christians tend to look at as a mark of a Christian. These things are not even issues for me. They're like second nature. This has NOTHING to do with failure. It has all to do with looking at the stuff in black and white and realizing it does not all mesh.
Did you ever wonder where that second nature came from? I am quite sure that to this day many more than yourself have studied it back and forth and must have realized that there are somethings that the Word of God is quiet on, yet have pursued doctorates in divinity as well as interpretation. I wonder how come they didn't see what you see and in fact many have turned from unbelief because of what they read some such as C.S. Lewis?
I am not a teenager buckling under peer pressure wanting to go to parties, clubs or to try some weed. It's not like I am craving to be like "normal kids" and since I can't deal with the temptations I gave up. Jedi, it's not about that so you can scratch that out of your mind, ok?
K.
MY RESPONSE:
Again Jedi, don't go assuming, ok? I could not wait for what? For contradictions to clear up and for blatant biblcal editing to suit a particular view disappear? The information is good for me because it helps me to know where NOT to put my faith as wel as give me a clearer perspective of the wider picture. If losing my faith was going to turn me into the next Ted Bundy or cause me to destroy myself with reckless living, then you could worry.
The issues I look at has nothing to do with God hiding anything. They are clear problems anyone who cares to look at objectively can see. In fact, you have not even touched one question I raised in the opening post. Are there any of them you have any answers for?
And I told you that I would research the answers and come back to you although I have a hunch that they probably won't satisfy you. Again my second response was to your second post in the thread.
Are these things God has hidden to reveal to us in the sweet by and by?
Yes but if you do not believe then I guess there is no answering you on that is there.
Funny how he has hidden Herod's Massacre, for example, from everyone but Matthew who then compounds the mess by claiming it was a prophecy from Jeremiah. Yeah right.
You mean this account by Matthew?
The Escape to Egypt
13When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. "Get up," he said, "take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him." 14So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, 15where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."[6]
16When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. 17Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:
18"A voice is heard in Ramah,
weeping and great mourning,
Rachel weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because they are no more."[7]
Look it up for yourself and tell me if the alleged prophecy is not WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY of base within the context of the chapter. This is what you get for trying to force Jesus to fit into a prophecy and looking stupid doing it.
Here is Jerimiah the prophet and it seems to me that he is prophesying about the coming Christ and the future Jerusalem, similar scriptures are found in the book of Isaih, but you are saying that because Matthew is the only one of the Apostles that gave this account and there are no records of this anywhere, then it must be untrue. Matthews gospel is the only one that gives as much detail about the birth of Christ, does not make it a lie for each of the gospel writers wrote their account with a different style. Also it seems to me that it may be possible to destroy records especially if a thing is less than scrupulous, but that is my take on things.:
Jeremiah 31
1 "At that time," declares the LORD , "I will be the God of all the clans of Israel, and they will be my people."
2 This is what the LORD says:
"The people who survive the sword
will find favor in the desert;
I will come to give rest to Israel."
3 The LORD appeared to us in the past, [1] saying:
"I have loved you with an everlasting love;
I have drawn you with loving-kindness.
4 I will build you up again
and you will be rebuilt, O Virgin Israel.
Again you will take up your tambourines
and go out to dance with the joyful.
5 Again you will plant vineyards
on the hills of Samaria;
the farmers will plant them
and enjoy their fruit.
6 There will be a day when watchmen cry out
on the hills of Ephraim,
'Come, let us go up to Zion,
to the LORD our God.' "
7 This is what the LORD says:
"Sing with joy for Jacob;
shout for the foremost of the nations.
Make your praises heard, and say,
'O LORD , save your people,
the remnant of Israel.'
8 See, I will bring them from the land of the north
and gather them from the ends of the earth.
Among them will be the blind and the lame,
expectant mothers and women in labor;
a great throng will return.
9 They will come with weeping;
they will pray as I bring them back.
I will lead them beside streams of water
on a level path where they will not stumble,
because I am Israel's father,
and Ephraim is my firstborn son.
10 "Hear the word of the LORD , O nations;
proclaim it in distant coastlands:
'He who scattered Israel will gather them
and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.'
11 For the LORD will ransom Jacob
and redeem them from the hand of those stronger than they.
12 They will come and shout for joy on the heights of Zion;
they will rejoice in the bounty of the LORD -
the grain, the new wine and the oil,
the young of the flocks and herds.
They will be like a well-watered garden,
and they will sorrow no more.
13 Then maidens will dance and be glad,
young men and old as well.
I will turn their mourning into gladness;
I will give them comfort and joy instead of sorrow.
14 I will satisfy the priests with abundance,
and my people will be filled with my bounty,"
declares the LORD .
15 This is what the LORD says:
"A voice is heard in Ramah,
mourning and great weeping,
Rachel weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because her children are no more."
16 This is what the LORD says:
"Restrain your voice from weeping
and your eyes from tears,
for your work will be rewarded,"
declares the LORD .
"They will return from the land of the enemy.
17 So there is hope for your future,"
declares the LORD .
"Your children will return to their own land
MY RESPONSE:
Elijah won when in the euphoria of a victory of Yahweh over Baal's priests, he managed to gain the backing of the people to slaughter 500 priests of Baal. Does this not sound like elimination of the competition? I'm sure that on that day, the priests of Baal were far outnumbered. Jezebel killed Yahweh's servants and she is stigmatized as a murderer. Elijah returns the favor and he's a hero of faith
So now you are defending good ole Jezzy huh! No kidding. Seems you just happened to overlook the fact that this woman brought every kind of vile practice with her when she married King Ahab, and Elijah was no match for her because if the reader goes further we see him running from her at one point. Furthermore according to the account Elijah proved in a contest with her priests that they were not match to God and were a bunch of fakes, and that is why they were killed. The Israelites belonged to God by a covenant made with Abraham and God ruled over them is that what you take issue with. You seem to be promoting temple prostitution and witchcraft here speaking of accepting other peoples practices.
Jehu was king when he carried out his act. we are told his intention was to kill all of Baal's priests, probably riding popular sentiment of the times started by Elijah. Jezebel was apparently hated and she being a foreigner brought Baal into Israel as the offical religion, transplanting the religion of Yahweh, effectively putting the Yahwehist priesthood out of business. In fact, she sought to kill all worshippers of Yahweh. With Jehu having her killed, it was also time to remove her influence which was Baalism. In any event, Jehu through deceit and treachery murdered the priests of Baal in premeditated cold blood thus effectively purging Baalism from Israel
And so you are saying that ridding the nation of these people was bad? Remember now I believe in God's soveriegnty so you won't find any sympathy from me here, and I certainly don't find anything admirable about the woman Jezebel or her priests you seem to have forgotten that the lady had no compuction when it came to slaughtering even the innocent. Read the account of Ahab and Naboth. I am surprised that now suddenly you are sympathetic to her or should I be?
Josiah was king when he carried out his purge. In fact, he added the extra thrill of burning the bones of the wayward priests of the foregin gods upon their own altars. He obviously had help at age 12 and the driving force were the priests of Yahweh led by Hilkiah who also happened to be the father of Jeremiah, the great prophet of Josiah's reign. It is obvious there was an agenda to eliminate the competition and during this period of peace under Josiah, the priests of Yahweh sought to re-establish the status they lost under Ahaz. Guess what came out of this neat little scenario? The book of the Law. How coincidental and convienient.
Again no sympathy here, though it intrigues me that you are sympathetic to the baal worshippers and again that you question God's soveriegnty.
So in none of these cases did the slain outnumber the victor or were in a position to win.
Mutty it is obvious that you question God's soveriegn rule over His people. You also seem to forget that of the Kings only about 7 were obdeient to God and every one of those others had broken the laws and defiled the holy temple of God with prostitution, burning unacceptable sacrifices on God's altar and openly worshipping baal in the temple of God. All this occurred over a period years for each king ruled for years not months. Yet we see that God bore with these people for a very long time till He took action. The Bible says that they engaged in every kind of witchcraft and divination even burning their infants in fire. Are you now saying that you are symapathetic to these things? Understand this any one who accepts God as God will find these practices as vile.
MY RESPONSE:
I am not appealing to the cause of trinitarians or non trinitarians. For the record, I grew up trinitarian. I simply brought it up to point out that after the ascendency of Christianity under Constantine, this began a period where Christians rose from being the persecuted to being the persecutor. They even persecuted other Christians whom they labeled heretics for holding views contrary to what was sanctioned by the state. Again, elimination of the competiton and their cherished scriptures. What was left was the state's sanctioned scriptures and dogma.
Jedi you obviously mistake me for some tag along Christian. That Bible you hold so dear I have read and studied from cover to cover more than 5 times. I did not simply read my Bible. I studied it. I know the whole story of the so-called theme the Bible presents. I know the standard Christian arguments, apologetics and explanations. My life was tied up in church for over 2 decades where I never lost a Bible quiz or Bible drill. Mention a scripture and I knew where to find it. I was so anal about these things I would be the one to discect I Chronicles chapter 1 through 9. I would the one to make the connection on remote and obscure scriptures that David's trusted advisor who turned against him to side with Absalom was also the grandfather of Bathsheba. How many Christians are even aware of this and know where to find the scriptures that make the link? No Jedi, you don't begin to even know me when it comes to the Bible
But you have turned what took you so long?
MY RESPONSE:
Again Jedi, you are way off. This has nothing to do with "falling aways" as you put it. This has everything to do with what I held true most of my life (the Bible) is not the perfection I thought it once was. Take your focus off me and deal with the questions in the orginal post. After all, this thread is not supposed to be about "Analyzing Mutty."
You brought it up in your second post and I quote Yes, I know, the eyebrows have gone up and this is news to some of you. You'll live. this is where you came into the picture.
I do know that absence of proof does not necessarily mean proof of absence, but before I get to that, let me explain something. My way of "witnessing" to people was always to present something and allow them to make their own decsisions. I was never one to tell people they had to accept Christ or toss around "I am the way the truth and the life..." or dangle hell and heaven in front of people. What I used to do, and you saw it here, was present my thoughts and opinions and leave it up to the reader. Well I do the same thing now. If it makes you come to grips with something and raises doubts or affirms what you already believe, then let the chips fall where they may. I have never been quiet about my convictions and I don't plan to stop now.
Back to the subject, I do realize that just because Matthew brought up the subject of Herod's massacre and no one else did does not automatically rule it out as not having happened, but it does raise suspicion. Matthew raises even more suspicion when he uses a prophecy that CLEARY refers to the Jewish exile and return and not Herod's massacre. This shows he was trying hard to force Jesus to fit into Old Testament prophecies. Furthermore, the same story of a chosen/divine child was said of Krishna, the popular Indian god long before Jesus.
In addition, those who study the Bible know that Matthew's motive was the convince the Jews that Jesus was their Messiah. His book is called the most "Jewish" of the 4 Gospels. This proved he tried to pull out all the stops to get this point across. Mark being the oldest Gospel (this is the consensus) does not care to tell us these details nor the other 3 Gospels or any other New Testament book for that matter, but Matthew, in trying to keep up with the theme of ancient times, probably saw the need to promote a unique birth and infancy for Jesus to qualify him as someone worth paying attention to. The idea of virgin births and fleeing parent(s) of divine children from the wrath of some royal figure was not a new idea in ancient times.
So no, absence of proof does not have to mean proof of absence, but considering other factors, I am suspicious.
As for Jezebel, I am NOT sympathetic to her. In fact, for the sake of argument, I will present her probable side of the story in the future. I was only pointing out how fairness in the Bible is partial. She kills and she's a villan. Elijah kills and he is hailed as a hero. If you accept the idea of God's sovereignty and it was right for Elijah to kill the prophets of Baal, then you know what kind of precedent this sets? What if Pat Robertson got the approval of Congress and George Bush to exterminate all opponents of Christianity and a certain type of Christianity at that? Would you also feel unsympathetic? Besides, the first act one must do when seeking to eliminate the competiton, a person standing in your way or someoe you want to dominate is to scandalize them. Say they have weapons of mass destruction or that they are perverted and vile or they are not humans. If you win, then you leave the story behind that you had right motives for eliminating or enslaving them.
We do know that people have tried to duplicate things in the Bible. The European Conquistadors were sent to the "New World" to seek gold, but people were standing in their way. How were they going to get around this? Call the people unsaved savages who needs to be brought to the light (our side) and if they don't, kill them. Even if they come to our side, there is nothing wrong with enslaving them. What was different here from the Hebrews marching into Canaan on the idea that the people there had no right to exist because God said so?
I'll finish this up later. Need to also get to Servant.
Originally posted by servant:
[qb] Mutty, how do you account for the resilience of this pack of lies. [/qb]
Mutty did not refer to the Bible as a pack of lies. He merely asked some rather pertinent questions about its historical basis in fact.
Apart from yardy, no has even attempted to address the points Mutty has raised. I am very interested in reading the answers to his (initial) questions.
”Mutty did not refer to the Bible as a pack of lies.”
Well of course not MissB, those are my words. And I never said that he did. However, he did say, in the "THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST" thread :
”It is indeed possible not the take the Bible as total truth or believe in Jesus and still believe in God”
Now that he has started a new thread with the very existence of Jesus as an issue, I am trying to explore the issue of the truthfulness of the Bible and why this book has been able to survive so many challeges to its truthfullness.
Ignoring the rest of your comments, please show me the names and I will be more than happy to retract them. BTW how is your bible study coming? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
Okay, here are a few examples...
Have you been doing it? Have you been earnestly trying to live and do every and anything that Christians are supposed to do? or has repeated failure to do so caused you to give up trying?
.Have you really done an honest appraisal of yourself and come to the conclusion that you are living as God would want you to live (-) belief in Christ as the atoning sacrifice for your failures?...You have no shame in otherwords, but really none of us can hide from God...My guess is right now...you are not living up to any kind of biblical standards, matter of fact I am willing to wager that there has been many a falling aways which has brought you to justify yourself by taking this stance i.e. Deny God and your sins will go away...So then you drew your own conclusions based on your own studies branded it "TRUTH" and decided that it was all fiction.
Do I need to quote you anymore. If you reread what you have posted then you would see where my comments came from. And my bible study is going well thank you very much. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Ignoring the rest of your comments, please show me the names and I will be more than happy to retract them. BTW how is your bible study coming? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
Okay, here are a few examples...
Have you been doing it? Have you been earnestly trying to live and do every and anything that Christians are supposed to do? or has repeated failure to do so caused you to give up trying?
.Have you really done an honest appraisal of yourself and come to the conclusion that you are living as God would want you to live (-) belief in Christ as the atoning sacrifice for your failures?...You have no shame in otherwords, but really none of us can hide from God...My guess is right now...you are not living up to any kind of biblical standards, matter of fact I am willing to wager that there has been many a falling aways which has brought you to justify yourself by taking this stance i.e. Deny God and your sins will go away...So then you drew your own conclusions based on your own studies branded it "TRUTH" and decided that it was all fiction.
Do I need to quote you anymore. If you reread what you have posted then you would see where my comments came from. And my bible study is going well thank you very much. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [/qb]
Servant I think one reason why these "pack of lies" (which I know you said with sarcasm) have survived is for a few reasons. I know the Christian answer will be, "they have survived because they are God's words and he has seen to it that his word endurteth forever and that one jot or title will pass away yada yada." It's far more than that.
My opinion is that the Jews had more than enough time on their hands to compile their scriptures. Their scriptures were their history or so it was believed. Everytime you looked around they were under someone's rule, in captivity or scattered about. It's akin to West Indians being in far away lands but in their basements, their roofs or their local shops you hear the beating of dominoes or sound of their cultural music.
The Jews hated the Babylonians. There is an "inspired" chapter in the book of Psalms where they hurled curses after the Babylonians who mocked their defeat and exile, curses hoping for Babylonian babies to be dashed against stones and so forth. They resisted ANY assimilation into Babylonian culture and clung harder to all they had left - their heritage. Furthermore, it is evident that questions might have arisen amongst these downcast people about their own god's capabilities. In a world where people believed their gods went to war when their nations went to war, it was inconceivable that their so-called great god, Yahweh, would be defeated and in defeat allow his people to be hauled off into humiliating exile. Up arose prophets like Ezekiel and the overlooked "Second Isaiah" who stirred the people by presenting grand visions of new Israel, complete with new temple where peace would reign. By now it had become evident that their God had not lost, it was because of their sins - yeah that's it - "we were bad people and forsook his laws and he allowed this to happen to us. By the way, what were those laws again?" Enter the advent of the religious leaders and the synagouge community where a bunch of bored exiles can sit and reminisce, overanalyze their laws and history and have ideas of putting them together in a collection.
The Babylonians were nothing. "Ha! Who the heck do they think they are? Their gods don't even exist! Our God is the ONLY true God and savior and besides him, there is no one else. Yeah, that's right! We said it! Our God is the ONLY God. Hmm...I like that idea Jedidiah! Our God is the only God and no other gods exists. I think we can build on that one."
Then came the Persians. They were welcomed with opened arms as liberators from the hated Babylonians. The book of Isaiah encourages the Jews to welcome him with open arms because he is the Lord's Messiah ("anointed"). The Persians under Cyrus sponsored a trip back to Jerusalem for a caravan of Jews, however, the majority remained in Babylon under Persian rule. The Jews thrived under the Persians and what began as probably casual gatherings under the Babylonians had become a passion under the Persians. The Persians even encouraged the Jews to fall back in line with their laws and Ezra, a Persian trained priests was pegged to go back to Judah and teach the people the Law of Moses which he did reading from a scroll indicating that by this time the Jewish scriptures were probably already compiled. There are a few people, myself included, that believe these along with Moses' laws, Persian laws based on Persian religion were also incorporated and in the spirit of good vibes, the Jews were opened to Zoroastrian influences as opposed to under the Babylonians whom the Jews appeared to resist. The fact that Ezra (a Jew) had to use interpreters when reading the law indicates that his hearers (Jews) were unfamiliar with the language these laws were written in.
As time progressed, there arose a sect who were zealous for the law Ezra brought from Persian Babylonia. They took on the name of Zoroastrian inhabitants from Persia itself and may have even originated from there. They were the Parsi (Parsees) later to become known in Jewish culture as Pharisees. They introduced and maintained Zoroastrian beliefs in the new Judah. These beliefs included the belief in one God, an divine enemy of God (Satan), immortality of the soul, heaven (paradise), hell, the apocalypse, the judgment and resurrection, angels and demons. These things were practically non existent in Jewish theology before this time. They gave rise to the Jewish teachers of the law known as Rabbis. The leaders who wanted to hold the stauts quo and rejected these new infusions such as the resurrection became known as the Sadducees.
All in all, the Jews at this time were a people obsessed with their scribes and teachers who were in turn obsessed with their laws and presevations of them. It is what kept them united and what helped them to maintain their racial standoffishness. It then is no suprise they were able to preserve their "pack of lies" because this was what they were committed to. Now all that was needed for the "lies" to go worldwide was a huge, influential beyond its time, long lasting empire to incorporate the Jewish scriptures as well as some addtional ones into the official state religion and wipe out all others claiming to be scripture and we have a book that persists down to our times. All this without having to include any divine providence. Dedicated people plus fanatical people in power over the whole known world equals these types of results.
I obviously said far more than I needed to, but I think you get the gist.
Originally posted by chazproductions:
[qb] To echo your sentiments...you repeatedly call the man failure...indirectly of course. [/qb]
Okay when you interject your opinion make sure that you have your facts straight - word of advice- do not accuse a person of saying what they didn't or assuming they meant something unless they said so. Now as to the man. The man has a voice and for all the time that I have interacted with the man on this website I am confident of one thing the man can speak for himself. That is as much as I have to say to you on this subject.
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