Being Perfect??

[Ephratahe]

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I was speaking with a friend of mine recently regarding the matter of perfection and the above verse. Their argument was that Christians can lead perfect lives, thus it was inconceivable why so many of us revert back to our carnal nature, then abuse the mercy of God by saying when we've sinned "oh, the Lord will forgive me so it's no big deal". I'd put the issue on the back burner for later contemplation, but recently someone else made this same statement, thus forcing me to remove the issue from the back burner.

My questions are these:
_What do you understand from the above verse?
_How does one define perfection in Christ?
_Is it possible for Christians to lead perfect lives (including divesting ourselves of all bad habits i.e. lying, gossiping, cheating, stealing, etc.)?
_If possible, how so?

[Shefreen Clarke]

Re: Being Perfect??

Anything is possible. It might be hard work, but definately not impossible. Once a person is focused and has the determination and drive to become perfect, nothing can stop them. There might be distractions, but it's just like going for anything else - focus.

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

My definition of perfection in Christ is being like him. Perfection in Christ involves knowing Him. This is different from knowing about Him. Once a person knows Christ, then he/she can become like him. When I say become like Him I mean in personality traits.

[tonic]

Re: Being Perfect??

This is a rough question. I get back to you later on it.

[Ephratahe]

Re: Being Perfect??

Originally posted by Hills_Princess:

[qb] Anything is possible. It might be hard work, but definately not impossible. Once a person is focused and has the determination and drive to become perfect, nothing can stop them. There might be distractions, but it's just like going for anything else - focus.[/qb]

So would you say that acheiving perfection in Christ is solely dependent on our own efforts?

[qb]My definition of perfection in Christ is being like him. Perfection in Christ involves knowing Him. This is different from knowing about Him. Once a person knows Christ, then he/she can become like him. When I say become like Him I mean in personality traits. [/qb]

I agree with you re: the distinction between knowing Christ and knowing about Him. Is it possible, however, to say that we know Him yet still lead imperfect lives? What are the deciding factors? And how do we truly determine that we know Him?

[Ephratahe]

Re: Being Perfect??

Originally posted by tonic:
[qb] This is a rough question. I get back to you later on it. [/qb]

'k. Thanks.

[Diplomat]

Re: Being Perfect??

The first thing we need to establish is what does the word 'perfect' - as used in the text - means, as more times than not, we tend to associate words used in the Bible with our current understanding of what the word means. We cannot always do that. One of the principles of exegesis (just a fancy word for the critical interpretation of a text (especially of the Bible)) is that a verse cannot mean today what it did not mean to the original hearers. Having said that, here goes:

According to Strong's Hebrew & Greek Dictionaries, the original (Greek) word translated 'perfect' is the word tel'-i-os, which basically means "complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.)" It also suggests "completeness: - of full age, man, perfect."

With this understanding, what was Jesus saying? I think Paul captures this best in Philippians 3:12-14, "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." The duty of the believer is to press towards being conformed to the image of Christ. It is mandated to be holy (morally blameless/consecrated), for He is holy (1Peter 1:16).

Can Christians lead a 'perfect life'? First and foremost, would God ask us to do something we were incapable of doing? I hardly think so. It is true that by our very sin nature, we trangress in thoughts, words, and deeds, but it IS possible to have the mind of Christ. Paul made this point in Philippians 2:5, "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus", and again in 1 Cor 2:16, "...we have the mind of Christ." Do bear in mind that we are the ones that are responsbile for the choices that we make, so to have the mind of Christ and act the way He would, requires the same level of consecration, submission, and surrender He showed towards the Father. Needless to say, we cannot do this on our own, but we have been given the Holy Spirit as our Helper, and He indeed will be our Guide if we allow Him. Easy? Not at all. We live in a world that is extremely challenging at best.

You asked "how?". Again, we can look to Paul to point us in the right direction. In Romans 12:1,2 we read: "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Two things we see very clearly are:

1) It is not enough to sacrifice; the *quality* of the sacrifice that we offer to God is absolutely important. It should be 'holy' and 'acceptable'; and 2) the need to have a transformation of the mind.

The mind is really the seat of our emotions, i.e. of all that we think/do and if the Christian is to be successful this tranformation has to take place for being carnally focused, to being spiritual focused. The carnal mind we understand is enmity against God (Romans 8:7) and is of no help in our spiritual walk. This transformation is something of a process, and it is only to the extent that we allow the Holy Spirit to change our mind, our ways of being, that we will experience success in our Christian walk. Not easy by any means, but not at all impossible.

Hope this helps.

[Ephratahe]

Re: Being Perfect??

CEW, you made some good points. I do have a few questions/comments, but I'll post them at a later time. Thanks.

[Shefreen Clarke]

Re: Being Perfect??

Originally posted by ephra:
[qb] Originally posted by Hills_Princess:

[qb] Anything is possible. It might be hard work, but definately not impossible. Once a person is focused and has the determination and drive to become perfect, nothing can stop them. There might be distractions, but it's just like going for anything else - focus.[/qb]

So would you say that acheiving perfection in Christ is solely dependent on our own efforts?
[/qb]

Ofcourse not. But God helps those who help themselves. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Guest]

Re: Being Perfect??

Originally posted by ephra:
[qb]

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I was speaking with a friend of mine recently regarding the matter of perfection and the above verse. Their argument was that Christians can lead perfect lives, thus it was inconceivable why so many of us revert back to our carnal nature, then abuse the mercy of God by saying when we've sinned "oh, the Lord will forgive me so it's no big deal". I'd put the issue on the back burner for later contemplation, but recently someone else made this same statement, thus forcing me to remove the issue from the back burner.

My questions are these:
_What do you understand from the above verse?
_How does one define perfection in Christ?
_Is it possible for Christians to lead perfect lives (including divesting ourselves of all bad habits i.e. lying, gossiping, cheating, stealing, etc.)?
_If possible, how so? [/qb]

1.-When taken with all the directions we get first of all from Jesus the Christ and from Paul his exponent on how to lead a life that is pleasing to God I can only conclude this "It is Christ that works in you to will and to do of his good pleasure."

2.- Perfection in Christ is being totally surrendered in body mind and spirit, to be used by God to accomplish His purposes for our lives.

3.-It is possible to lead lives which are perfect in God's eyes, as long as we are remaining in His will for our lives. Being in His will means again surrendering and seeking daily to follow in His footsteps our perfection is in Christ not in any efforts of our own.

We build Christlike character as we:
a. Study the word to both know of God and to know what He requires of us.

b. Spend time in prayer and meditation daily in order to build a personal relationship with Him. Surrendering the most trivial to the most intimate details of our lives to Him. Call upon Him to help us for we cannot do one thing on our own.

c. Believe

[joegrind]

Re: Being Perfect??

Perfection to me is not a state of being, but a process of becoming .As for example jesus is often times used as an example of perfection, but he too had his lapse when he fell short of perfection , in my opinion .eg:-the temple flogging .Apart from enoch(not much info on him ) the only other perfect being was lucifer and we know how that turn out .God the father is far from perfect if we use the milestick of his commandments and recommendation as a guide . Perfection as a state of being in christain theology does not exist

[Ephratahe]

Re: Being Perfect??

There are some great points here. I'll be able to respond fully once I feel better. Thanks all and God bless.

[Rozhyper]

Re: Being Perfect??

Jesus is God
God is Perfect
We are made in a perfect image and likeness; and therefore have the potential to be Perfect.

striving for Perfection gives all Christian a challenge; Perfection in the sense of living your life in complete faith in the Lord God Jesus Christ.

Not everything you conceive exists. However, if you believe in Jesus, which I do. Perfection is tangible.

[Ephratahe]

Re: Being Perfect??

Originally posted by Hills_Princess:
[qb] Ofcourse not. But God helps those who help themselves. [/qb]

Thanks for your response Hills_Princess [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] . In the area of perfection, however, I'm not sure how much we can help ourselves, unless that help means fully relying on the Lord. But I guess once the Lord provides us with the strength and wisdom to pursue a certain course, then we have to make the choice to follow through by fully leaning on Him. Thanks again.

[Ephratahe]

Re: Being Perfect??

CEW - I do believe that becoming Christlike is a daily process - a growing experience - thus, it is necessary to 'press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus' as Paul states. I guess my concern would be for individuals who rely too strongly on this premise by reasoning that they are still a work in progress thus any sins committed, wilfull or otherwise, can be overlooked or ignored. This might be dangerous ground for any individual to stand on. Thanks for your response [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] .

Jedi: Yep, agreed. Thanks [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] . I guess the real challenge for many of us Christians is being committed to a disciplined lifestyle in Christ. When we lack discipline in our walk with the Lord, then it becomes difficult for us to overcome our faults through the help of Christ.

Frankster: I believe that as a man thinketh, so is he. For me, it is hard to separate the state of mind from the state of being, as your thoughts eventually translate into action. I'm a bit perplexed, you see the Creator as imperfect, yet the created being(s) as perfect, why? I think Christ overturning the tables of the money changers in the temple actually demonstrated His perfection, as the people within the temple had perverted the ways of God, and thus the way to salvation. But it is by faith that we see... Thanks for your response [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] .

Rozhyper: I agree with you regarding perfection being a challenge. And I'm glad that with God all things are possible. Thanks much [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] .

Thanks all.

[Diplomat]

Re: Being Perfect??

Originally posted by ephra:
[QB] CEW - I do believe that becoming Christlike is a daily process - a growing experience - thus, it is necessary to 'press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus' as Paul states. I guess my concern would be for individuals who rely too strongly on this premise by reasoning that they are still a work in progress thus any sins committed, wilfull or otherwise, can be overlooked or ignored. This might be dangerous ground for any individual to stand on.

I agree with you. This thinking was prevalent in the early Church and one which Paul spent a lot of time addressing is his letter to the Romans, a must read for every believer. He started off Chapter 6 with the powerful challenge: "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?", and immediately answered it in the start of verse 2: "God forbid." The rest of that Chapter is absolutely beautiful:

"How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Thanks for your response [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

My pleasure. It was a great set of questions and a thread that will be archived.