More Obeah

[BoricuaThunda]

Re: More Obeah

...and even when the Europeans were writing things down, they were not always correct about things ie. the census takers... if you have a conquering mentality you may be prone to favor your own over the reality of things... I was taught in a Caribbean Studies class that the Tainos did not die out... they assimilated or were coerced to adopt other identities... even Spanish/English/French names... just analyze a myriad of documentation and you will see what I'm talking about.

[BoricuaThunda]

Re: More Obeah

The Taino were not Arawaks. Their antecedents were partially Arawak and partially Maya... they came in 2 different directions and merged in the islands to form a distinct group with a distinct culture.

[rufian]

Re: More Obeah

baracuda if you need su mucha moniker yu na ha none claim. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img]

na even think for one moment that yu mek impact.
Come een wid one text as if it is a bible verse and expect that fe rock me chu me never see text bout obeah before [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img]

obeah have an origin, it permuted in and outside of Africa, so go to hell wid you opias me say. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] I have acknowledged that you made a blaspheming remark to say the least [img]/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]
but of course my go to hell can be interpreted in many ways, yours and many others. Don't lament on that too much, let it die.

As a matter of fact, I have asked you to prove by content the similarity with this Taino belief and obeah practice. There is now enough written material for your liking.

check the links and text on this thread, they have been written by Caribbean scholars on the matter and I also think that the various island's perspectives on obeah does shed some light to your single Taino claim.

Not unless you want to discredit our black doctors and lawyers for talking about their own tradition which belongs to Tainos according to you

Peace. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

PS.
In West Indian History(texts) there is no mention of Tainos but of Caribs and Arawaks if you get my drift.

It would be nice if we could discuss outside of the Taino arguement, you know try a comparative approach. It is also a method of study you know.

[rufian]

Re: More Obeah

Originally posted by BoricuaThunda:
[qb] The Taino were not Arawaks. Their antecedents were partially Arawak and partially Maya... they came in 2 different directions and merged in the islands to form a distinct group with a distinct culture. [/qb]

where is your proof? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
But dis ya nano Taino thread, a obeah seen [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

But I asked you before where they were.
According to texts, apart from the Spanish Indies there is nothing mention on them. We could then argue that there were no Tainos in Jamaica since West Indian History makes mention of Arawaks in Jamaica. We could also argue that there were there because texts also claim that Taino refers to both Caribs and Arawaks.
Because of all this confusion, I would prefer to ask a Taino myself [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img]

[rufian]

Re: More Obeah

Originally posted by BoricuaThunda:
[qb] The Taino were not Arawaks. Their antecedents were partially Arawak and partially Maya... they came in 2 different directions and merged in the islands to form a distinct group with a distinct culture. [/qb]

Now why are you so sure of this opias claim when your information on the Tainos themselves was incorrect?
I am asking you if this is the name given to these people by themselves and you are not answering.
After all this is your culture and come wid some stories [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
Even if they were partially Arawaks, is this what they called themselves?(before the Europeans) In this instance is not the word of the people fact and not the written text of the Europeans?


Read for yourself [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Taino
The story of the 'Caribs and Arawaks'

Part 1

By Kim Johnson
The story of the Arawaks, the Caribs and the Spaniards is a well known tale told to every Caribbean child. We all, from the least educated to the most widely read, accept it almost instinctively that there were, before the Europeans landed on these our islands, a peaceful and gentle tribe of Amerindians called the Arawaks who had inhabited the entire Caribbean archipelago. So generous and guileless were these people that they embraced the Spaniards and provided every comfort for them, only to be repaid by being mercilessly slaughtered so that within a few decades not one Arawak was alive.

Although it is rarely stated there is a clear implication that, for all of its cruelty, the extinction of this people at the hands of the Spanish could almost be seen as a blessing in disguise.

This is because there was another tribe, a ferocious one called the Caribs, who were on the verge of pouncing on the Arawaks and putting them to an even more horrible end. These Caribs were, you see, eaters of human flesh. Following hard on the heels of the Arawaks, they had gobbled their way up the Caribbean archipelago, settling on each island like a swarm of locusts in a field, and only moving on when they had gorged themselves on every available Arawak. By the time of Columbus's arrival, the Caribs had eaten their way through the Lesser Antilles and already were licking their chops for the meat walking about in Puerto Rico.

And yet, also instinctively, the distastefulness of that story makes it difficult to swallow. Its nightmare quality seems to represent the final, ultimate indignity perpetrated against the first Caribbean people - already victims of the first holocaust unleashed on the world by European civilization. So we wonder, is that what really happened? Could there not have been be another side to it? Now that the 500th anniversary of Colum-bus's arrival has passed, perhaps we should look again at the chronicles of the time. Because, having taken our place in the modern world, we must define what we have brought to it. And to do so, what better place to start than at the beginning?

Setting our minds to this task, then, the first matter at hand is the business about the Arawaks: who were they? And the first startling fact we encounter is that when Columbus arrived at Hispaniola there were no people who were called 'Arawaks', and there never had been. If you were to go to Santo Domingo today people would tell you that their Amerindian ancestors were the 'Taino'. Actually, Indians of the Greater Antilles did not call themselves 'Taino', no more than they called themselves 'Arawak' - that name was given them in 1935 by Sven Loven, a Swedish archaeologist, from the word denoting in the Indian lauguage the ruling class of their society. -------(1) But let us not quibble: seeing as we do not know what the Greater Antilleans called themselves, we shall make do with Taino.

If the people of the Greater Antilles were not Arawaks, neither did they passively accept Spanish depradations. Most of us are familiar with the story of Hatuey, the chief who organized to fight the Spanish and who was, when captured, burnt at the stake. Repent and go to heaven, they told him as they lit the fire. If there are Spaniards in heaven I would rather go to hell, he replied. Nor was Hatuey the only defiant one. There were several others, men like Guarocuya (Enrique) in Hispaniola, Uroyoan in Borinquen (Puerto Rico) and Guama in Cuba, who confronted the strange, terrifying European weapons - the man-eating dogs, the guns, the mounted soldiers, the naval galleons - with great courage and determination.

http://raceandhistory.com/Taino/

and a varying source

http://www.maskmaster.com/TainoHistory.html

[Guest]

Re: More Obeah



Article from the St. Thomas Daily News

[BoricuaThunda]

Re: More Obeah

________

You are used to conversing with folks who have not a damn clue about the world... that is your ONLY "power". When you decide to speak right, we can talk... otherwise, scream like a banshee all you want. I pass.

I remember 3 years back how you were on this forum... scared to come off to your own people about a NON-Christian religion... enough to the point where you would hide behind another screen name... now you're Cleo... Your hat is on too tight, sista.
________


Thanks for the info Ms. B. I will check when I get the chance.

[Guest]

Re: More Obeah

A tale from St. John's.

Some practitioners of Obeah follow a dark and deadly path. It is said that they can grant great power, wealth and worldly delights. They are also said to cast evil and wicked spells that can bring pain, sickness, insanity and death.

Others are dedicated to the light, to warding off evil spirits and harmful spells, and to aid their fellow man on the often difficult and treacherous journey of life.

Magic, like anything else in the universe, does not occur without consequences, and with consequences comes responsibility. Most Obeah men and women are considered mediums or intermediaries between the individual wanting a spell cast and the person who receives that spell. It is widely accepted that the initiator of the spell is accountable for the consequences of the magic. Sometimes, however, the Obeah priest or priestess acts on their own for their own purposes. In this case, they must bear full and total responsibility for the consequences of their actions. This is the story of one such Obeahman, who corrupted by the power that he possessed, practiced his dark arts in order to satisfy his own wanton and selfish desires.

The Obeahman in question had long ago withdrawn from society and lived as a recluse near a secluded swamp surrounded by a dark forest. On one of his rare visits to the village, he became obsessed with desire for an attractive young married woman. The next new moon, at the stroke of midnight, the sorcerer performed an ancient ritual that allowed him to leave his body in the form of an evil spirit.

Unseen and unheard by any of the villagers, he made his way to the door of the woman's house. He knocked on the door. The woman's husband opened the door. The evil spirit then blew a magic dust that he was holding in his hand into the face of the unsuspecting husband.

The husband then fell into a profound sleep; one which seemed more like a coma or death than ordinary sleep. The spirit then took the woman, bewitched her with a spell, and had sex with her until just before the dawn. Before the sun arose, the spirit took leave of the house and returned to the shanty in the swamp and back into the body of the Obeahman.

Both husband and wife awake shortly after dawn. Neither remembered anything of the night before, The woman, however, felt drawn and ill at ease and was troubled by a deep scratch that itched and burned.

On the evening of the next new moon the spirit generated by the Obeahman returned to the couple's house. The husband was again rendered unconscious and the woman bewitched into having sex with the spirit. As on the previous month, neither husband nor wife remembered anything and the only evidence left by the evil spirit was the disturbing scratch that itched and burned.

The woman began to feel unexplainably ill and depressed. One day the woman's brother came to visit and noticed that something was troubling his sister. He asked her what was wrong and in the course of describing her feelings she showed her brother the scratches that refused to heal. Suspecting that his sister was under the influence of an Obeah spell, the man took her to see a white magic woman.

The Obeah woman immediately recognized the scratch as the mark of the evil spirit. She told the woman what was happening and gave her an herb, which her husband was to brew into tea and drink at dusk on the new moon to counteract the effects of the magic powder.

On the next new moon the spirit returned. He blew the dust into the husband's face, but this time the man did not sleep, he only pretended to. The spirit then took the wife and began to have sex with her. Her husband taking hold of a large sharp knife which he had kept hidden and ready for this very moment, plunged it into the spirit's back with all his might. The evil spirit uttered a horrifying shriek, jumped from the bed and ran out the door. Returning to the swamp, the wounded spirit reentered the body of the Obeahman who could now feel the life force draining from his body. The Obeahman knew that there was no hope. No doctor or no hospital could save him, neither could his magic incantations, because his spirit was mortally wounded and as a result the body could not go on living. The Obeahman locked this door, sat in his chair and waited for death.

Some weeks later, a hunter passing by the swamp was struck by a nauseating odor emanating from the shanty. When no one answered his calls, he broke down the door and found the decaying body of the evil priest.

Just as it is in the physical realm, so it is in the spiritual realm. Balance will inevitably be restored. The laws of karma can be as rigid as the laws of physics, and the Obeahman, who had abused his powers, had to bear the responsibility for his actions, for which he paid the ultimate price.

Link

[Guest]

Re: More Obeah

The kapok tree is considered sacred by African and native Caribbean cultures.

Interestingly, the kapok is native to South America. How did it reach Africa?

Can anyone tell us of the importance of the kapok tree? Any stories?

It has many names: silk cotton tree, ceiba, jumbie tree, devil tree, and God tree




Roots of a kapok tree in Senegal

[rufian]

Re: More Obeah

Originally posted by MissB:
[qb] The kapok tree is considered sacred by African and native Caribbean cultures.

Interestingly, the kapok is native to South America. How did it reach Africa?

Can anyone tell us of the importance of the kapok tree? Any stories?

It has many names: silk cotton tree, ceiba, jumbie tree, devil tree, and God tree




Roots of a kapok tree in Senegal [/qb]

You can refer to what britisha was saying in the first thread. Check references on Baobab as well.

All earth religions observe certain trees the same ways.

Me see crapo [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img]
MissB the kapok tree is also native to Africa and India too.


sukuna also hides her skin beneath the devil tree. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Old Higue
The story is that the ole higue, the Guyanese form of a human vampire, capable of discarding her skin takes the form of an old woman living in a community. At night she transforms herself into a ball of fire, flies from her own house up into the sky and then lands on the roof of another house where there is a baby in a cradle underneath a sheet whose blood she will suck dry and then go home. The suspicions of the community are soon aroused and the school children cry ole higue at her; they make chalk marks, on the bridge to her house, the door, the jalousie window. But the legend goes that she crosses these marks bravely.
Then the community sets a trap. When the ole higue flies abroad another night she finds that the baby in the cradle is clothed in a blue night gown. There is a heap of rice grains near to the cot and the smell of asfoetida. These cast a spell on the ole higue who has to count the grains of rice, and if she loses her way, she has to start counting again. The light of morning comes and the ole higue still has not finished counting the grains of rice. People burst into the room pick up cabbage broom and begin to belabour the ole higue. They beat her to death, with great emotion You gwine pay for your sins before you die they say.
The Old Higue waits until the early hours of the morning and when everyone is asleep; then the Old Higue sheds its human skin; then the Old Higue travels in a ball of fire searching for victims; then the Old Higue slips through the keyhole of the house of its chosen victim; then the Old Higue sucks the blood of a child dry, dry, dry Oh, the deep fear of it is enough to cause a child to remain awake all night, every night. Queh Queh Pre-nuptial dances and songs bordering on the sensuous from West Africa rehearse the bride's part and a help to prepare her for the future -'Lend me our mortar is one of the queh queh songs. Some of the songs inclued Oman a Heavy Load , Gal you glorious marnin come , Buy me lova wan shut, Me go wash am. These dances and songs often end in sessions of wild abandon.

Soucouyant (Trinidad and Tobago)
The Soucouyant (Sukuya), also called Old Hag, is a supernatural being who has made a pact with the devil to be able to change herself into all kinds of different forms. At night she sheds her human skin and changes into a ball of fire or any kind of animal and casts spells on people to turn them into animals also, but she has to slip back into that skin before dawn breaks and the cock crows, otherwise she will not be able to get back into it.
So it may happen, that, when people suspect that an old woman neighbour of theirs is, in fact, a soucouyant, they may trick her by going to her house at night and destroying the skin she left behind by putting salt on it so that it will shrink and she will not be able to get back into it and thus die. In Trinidad, if somebody walks around with a hicky soukie) on his neck, he may get remarks from his friends like: Eh, Eh, Soucoyant suck yuh or wha?

http://www.thecaribbeanplanet.com/folklore.html

[Guest]

Re: More Obeah

Originally posted by sukuna:
[qb]You can refer to what britisha was saying in the first thread. Check references on Boabab as well.[/qb]

Can only find one mention and it doesn't answer the questions.

Originally posted by sukuna:
[qb]Me see crapo [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img] [/qb]

What is 'crapo'? a toad? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[rufian]

Re: More Obeah

[qb]Interestingly, the kapok is native to South America. How did it reach Africa?[/qb]
It is also native to Africa as well as India. na mek shark bite you [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[qb]
Can anyone tell us of the importance of the kapok tree? Any stories?[/qb]
The importance of this and other such trees is too numerous to mention and is elementary. For example, the concecration also for the obeah people, for new borns, it is a source of strenght and courage, it is a place of worship, it is the home of the ancestors or spirits, and so on.
Up until now on many islands people are afraid to even point at the devil tree much less to chop it down.
Britisha was saying that it was once a place of obeah worship in Jamaica.

here is more universal look:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/Zwemer/Animism/chapt11.htm

[qb]What is 'crapo'? a toad?[/qb]
Yes crapo/grapo as in the article you posted, from the French, crapaud. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Guest]

Re: More Obeah

Originally posted by BoricuaThunda:
[qb] Obeah = Opías

This is an Afro-Taíno belief system that employed the natural surrounding fauna in creating potions to create "magical" situations. It is partially-Taíno and partially-West African, as it was ritual information passed down from the first people in the islands and onto the Africans who arrived later.


Excerpt:

"The Taínos believed that the forest was inhabited by spirits called opías. Opías were the spirits of the dead, and one could identify opías because they lacked navels. They were supposed to come out of the forest at night and feast on guayaba fruit. In fact, it is tropical bats who eat guayaba fruit at night which led the Tainos to associate opías with bats.
[/qb]

Hmmm, it looks like opías = duppies

Don't Puerto Ricans practice Santeria which is Yoruba/Catholic in origin?

Obeah, on the other hand, traces its origins to the Dahomey and Ashanti.

[rufian]

Re: More Obeah

Originally posted by BoricuaThunda:
[qb] ________

You are used to conversing with folks who have not a damn clue about the world... that is your ONLY "power".
[/qb]
my people have their own world view, they dont need somebody else's. The days of colonialism are gone.

[qb]
When you decide to speak right, we can talk... otherwise, scream like a banshee all you want. I pass.
[/qb]
speaking right means say me fe start say Opias from now on? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img]
Well 3 days pass and you keep your word. At last you keeping your clappers shut.
now to your false accusations:
[qb]
I remember 3 years back how you were on this forum... scared to come off to your own people about a NON-Christian religion... enough to the point where you would hide behind another screen name... now you're Cleo... Your hat is on too tight, sista.
[/qb]
Was I here 3yrs ago? Were you here 3 yrs ago? Did I ever tell you I was scared? Who are my own people? Which non-christian religion was that?
I have only 1 ID on this board. Anybody who know me pan dis board know that I have been ever straight up from day one.
Now unlike yourself with so many IDs on this board. You come een pan dis thread and misconfigured all your personalities. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
Wait, is it not you who are ****** off with Jamaicans for being steadfast christians? What I talk about here is my heritage and not my daily bread. So you want to sell Obeah along with your other made up Lucemia and other Afro-Latin religions feel free. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] There are enough people looking for their identities in all sorts of places, but be prepared to get resistance from them who know the truth and will not buy into your Afro-Taino what not.
If I were you, I would come up with an Obeah church, make up a website, gather a few of my anti-men friends them and have them create 10 IDs a piece and start to cut and paste text. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Obeah can't cure AIDS so look some place else if you need something to grab your congregation wid. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img] There is a matchet for two-sidedness too. lol

Me na fraid neither god nor man. You might be my sister but I am not yours.

mama a ooman ana man
nana a ooman ana man
dada a ooman ana man

Me never hear bout antiman Shango yet

You can detect an antiman by flightiness, just say go to hell and dem start to fly, e dada? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Let not your heart be trouble, this is the real life.

[rufian]

Re: More Obeah

Kokobay/Kokobya

III: Histories, Journals, Dictionaries, Encyclopedias, Writings that show religious, pedagogical, cultural influences on folk performances

According to this text, Kokobya another word for Obeah in Nevis. Kokobay, to put it nicely, the art of inflicting people with sicknesses and diseases to a few islands including mine, Monserrat and Grenada [img]/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]
Kokobay is used to scare off children from wrong doing. Because it is thought that you get sickness when you do immoral things, it is/was said to children, if you did this or that you will get kokobay, for example, sleeping with your cousin or stealing sugar.
One of the most common forms of kokobay is a growth on the eyelid.
To put kokobay on anybody, you have to have the knowledge of where to find the agents in nature.

One story is about a fisherman and two women.

The first woman found out that he was sleeping with somebody else, so she got something and prepared herself for him, cooked and enticed him. He declined her offer because he said that before he go fishing, he should not sleep wid any woman, so the thing stayed inside of her and burnt her out.