Reparations: Is it appropriate?

[jackmandora]

One of the more controversial calls coming out of the millions more movement is that for reparations. The extract below gives a viewpoint, but my question is - "Are reparations for slavery appropriate?"

EXTRACT - From "The Afrocentric Experience" <Source>

The subject is scalding hot, untouchable as public policy. Even the brave run from it. And it is only a question: Should the U.S. government pay reparations to the descendants of slaves?

"Just a question," says Rep. John Conyers Jr. (D-Mich.), cool, dispassionate, like he's teaching high school science. "We ask questions about everything. What's in space? What's underneath the water? How did the Earth begin? Interesting questions. But this one has been studiously avoided."

Few questions challenge us to consider 380 years of history all at once, to tunnel inside our souls to discover what we truly believe about race and equality and the value of human suffering.

[tsophra]

Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?

400 years of unpaid labour... Hell Yes!!

I am curious about how distribution would be determined.

[BakYaSoh]

Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?

Reparations, if mishandled, could do far more harm than good. I am completely opposed to paying individuals reparations.

Reparations should be paid to organizations that extend opportunities to the black community, like educational institutions, cultural institutions, economic institutions, etc. It may even be used for funding hospitals and social welfare programs.

I think, if handled carefully, reparations may be a very good idea, if only for the reason that it may resolve the guilt/bitterness that has plaqued black white relations in this country for the past 400 years. Being forced to pay blacks reparations would change the way whites view blacks for the better. Being paid reparations would relieve some of the shame blacks feel for their history of servitude.

[tsophra]

Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?

Originally posted by BakYaSoh:
[qb] Reparations, if mishandled, could do far more harm than good. I am completely opposed to paying individuals reparations.

Reparations should be paid to organizations that extend opportunities to the black community, like educational institutions, cultural institutions, economic institutions, etc. It may even be used for funding hospitals and social welfare programs.

I think, if handled carefully, reparations may be a very good idea, if only for the reason that it may resolve the guilt/bitterness that has plaqued black white relations in this country for the past 400 years. Being forced to pay blacks reparations would change the way whites view blacks for the better. Being paid reparations would relieve some of the shame blacks feel for their history of servitude. [/qb]

BYS..I beg to differ with the last part I am not ashamed...angry would be more appropriate. And I actually think so many whites feel far removed from what happened..they would probably be resentful..but that would be their issue.

If America did this...would the Brits follow suit and the French and the Dutch and the Spanish..?

[BakYaSoh]

Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?

Speaking only for Americans, the white community, as a whole, often reacts to blacks with guilt, which is where so much of the animosity and descrimination comes from. Blacks, as a whole, often feels themselves inferior and internalize this feeling destructively.

This dynamic is not true for all white people or all black people. But it is a recurring theme in black-white relations in the USA. It seems to me that reparations would go a long way to relieving white guilt. And the more we pay for something the more respect we have for that something. Reparations would establish the great worth of black labour in America. By so doing, it would greatly lesson the low self esteem that can come from being descendant from slaves.

Again, I am not speaking of EVERYONE, just in very general terms.

[tsophra]

Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?

Originally posted by BakYaSoh:
[qb] Speaking only for Americans, the white community, as a whole, often reacts to blacks with guilt, which is where so much of the animosity and descrimination comes from. Blacks, as a whole, often feels themselves inferior and internalize this feeling destructively.

This dynamic is not true for all white people or all black people. But it is a recurring theme in black-white relations in the USA. It seems to me that reparations would go a long way to relieving white guilt. And the more we pay for something the more respect we have for that something. Reparations would establish the great worth of black labour in America. By so doing, it would greatly lesson the low self esteem that can come from being descendant from slaves.

Again, I am not speaking of EVERYONE, just in very general terms. [/qb]

BYS..generally speaking, I don't agree with your comments regarding white guilt. Lets not pretend that slavery ended because white america had an epiphany and realised that slavery was wrong. Just like slavery served a purpose..so did freeing the slaves. Most of today's whites have disassociated themselves from what happened on the basis of either "that was way before my time" or "my people were not here then". Sure there may be some guilt flying around but not for most.

I do not believe reparations has anything to do with re-establish black esteem. What will help in establishing blacks self esteem is reestablishing our Stolen Legacy. Black children need to learn that prior to slavery we had a proud, strong culture that they can be proud of.

[BakYaSoh]

Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?

The slavery of Africans in the Americas was a terrible crime against humanity. It stands as amongst the evilest acts ever perpetrated by man!

That being said, there are many forms of slavery. The mistake many African Americans make is to blame ALL white people. The fact is, most white people don't feel like they benefit from racism -- and if you were them, neither would you. The whole system is setup to keep EVERYONE enslaved. There are field hands, house servants, court eunuchs -- but we're all slaves.

I do not mean to minimize the crime that was African slavery! But do not let that crime blind us to the other important truths of our society. It's a small handful of people that control things in this world -- that's nothing sinister, it's just how the numbers work in our current system.

Who are the slaves? Anyone that isn't free. What is freedom? Freedom is complete ownership of your labour and your time. A free person does not HAVE to work for a living, a free person CHOOSES to work. A free person has the economic resources to not work if that is what they choose. If this is not true of you, then you are not free.

In our world, one must purchase their freedom. Few of us ever do. I hope to be free before I die.

[tsophra]

Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?

BYS..you are making me laff. Do you have some script running in your head? Nothing in my response indicated that I thought white americans should feel guilty nor did I say a word about who benefited from slavery (don't start debating with yourself [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] ) I merely disagreed with your statement that white americans feel guilty about slavery.

I do agree that everything is controlled by a few..but I do believe it is sinister...even if the intent is to just maintain the status quo.

[BakYaSoh]

Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?

Arjen, I was debating with myself. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I believe that there is something called "collective guilt" and that white America suffers from this for things like stolen African labour, stolen Native land, stolen Mexican land, stolen Spanish land, the invasion of Vietnam, and the invasion of Iraq. I believe collective guilt plays a role in white behaviour toward blacks and undermines attempts to purge racism.

[quodlibet]

Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?

Originally posted by BakYaSoh:
...
Who are the slaves? Anyone that isn't free. What is freedom? Freedom is complete ownership of your labour and your time. A free person does not HAVE to work for a living, a free person CHOOSES to work. A free person has the economic resources to not work if that is what they choose. If this is not true of you, then you are not free.
...

There is something missing in your description. Slavery went beyond simple lack of liberty or the non-control over your own resource (labor).

Slavery also was the systematic and pervasive deconstruction of identity. It was the deliberate erasure of tradition, ownership, and family. Social and familial institutions often take generations to establish, and the systematic erasure of these destroy the roots of a people.

What's the price tag on that?

[quodlibet]

Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?

Originally posted by BakYaSoh:
...
Being paid reparations would relieve some of the shame blacks feel for their history of servitude.

Don't you think this is a bit of a leap? Would this not be the same as suggesting that a financial reward should relieve some of the shame a victim feels for her being raped?

First of all, the victim should not be ashamed - and we should not assume she should, or would be.

Secondly, as with a victim of a rape, slavery was not something the slaves were "asking for" - and so would not be culpable, hence shame is the wrong idea.

[tsophra]

Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?

Originally posted by BakYaSoh:
[qb] Arjen, I was debating with myself. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I believe that there is something called "collective guilt" and that white America suffers from this for things like stolen African labour, stolen Native land, stolen Mexican land, stolen Spanish land, the invasion of Vietnam, and the invasion of Iraq. I believe collective guilt plays a role in white behaviour toward blacks and undermines attempts to purge racism. [/qb]

BYS..Unless there is change in existing eco-political structure racism will never be purged. Some form of it needs to exist to maintain the status quo. It its not blacks, its the Mexicans,etx.

[quodlibet]

Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?

Originally posted by Arjen:
...
What will help in establishing blacks self esteem is reestablishing our Stolen Legacy. Black children need to learn that prior to slavery we had a proud, strong culture that they can be proud of.

And what about during slavery? Can black children not be also proud of survival and adaptation in extreme adversity? Also be proud of the fact that some their ancestors became 'strange fruit' in an attempt to give them the type of liberty they now enjoy?

BTW, I am interested in knowing some more about this "reestablishing our Stolen Legacy". Can you expand on that a little more please...


Thanks, great thread!

[quodlibet]

Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?

Originally posted by BakYaSoh:
Arjen, I was debating with myself. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I believe that there is something called "collective guilt" and that white America suffers from this for things like stolen African labour, stolen Native land, stolen Mexican land, stolen Spanish land, the invasion of Vietnam, and the invasion of Iraq. I believe collective guilt plays a role in white behaviour toward blacks and undermines attempts to purge racism.

What do you see as evidence of this "collective guilt"?

[tsophra]

Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?

Originally posted by Quodlibet:
[qb]

Originally posted by BakYaSoh:
Arjen, I was debating with myself. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I believe that there is something called "collective guilt" and that white America suffers from this for things like stolen African labour, stolen Native land, stolen Mexican land, stolen Spanish land, the invasion of Vietnam, and the invasion of Iraq. I believe collective guilt plays a role in white behaviour toward blacks and undermines attempts to purge racism.

What do you see as evidence of this "collective guilt"? [/qb]

mi was wandering de same