72% say church is full of hypocrites

[Diplomat]

Re: Examine Yourself

No, it's not from a "jaded point of view", but as you alluded to, just an awareness that it's only the one who is without sin that is qualified to cast the first stone. That requirement excludes me. Plus, I'm on my own path that has more than enough challenges to keep me looking upwards.

I hear you on the point of 'review', and I fully agree regarding the perspective and prejudices of the reviewer towards the reviewee being a factor, but that's where the inherent danger rests. If we 'examine' those who claim to speak the Word, are we examining that word spoken in light of Biblical truths, or are we examining the life of the person? The first totally make sense, and I fully support that, but if it's the latter, what's the motive?

[evanovitch]

Re: Examine Yourself

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, it's not from a "jaded point of view", but as you alluded to, just an awareness that it's only the one who is without sin that is qualified to cast the first stone. That requirement excludes me. Plus, I'm on my own path that has more than enough challenges to keep me looking upwards.

I hear you on the point of 'review', and I fully agree regarding the perspective and prejudices of the reviewer towards the reviewee being a factor, but that's where the inherent danger rests. If we 'examine' those who claim to speak the Word, are we examining that word spoken in light of Biblical truths, or are we examining the life of the person? The first totally make sense, and I fully support that, but if it's the latter, what's the motive? </div></div>

in that case. u examine and find the Word to be intellectual in application and not life changing in application....u cannot separate 'Biblical truth' from 'life of'....

[Diplomat]

Re: Examine Yourself

So we come full circle, and face to face with the principle of Jesus' teaching in Matt. 7:1-5. I'm particularly intrigued by verses 3-5:

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

Why the intrigue? Because He called these "fruit inspectors" hypocrites. Interesting, huh?

ETA: Biblical truth is not dependent on the life of the person speaking it. Even from the mouth of the vilest of sinners, the Word remains unadulterated truth. I believe that even if someone is not living up to the standard of God's Word, i.e. not applying it to their day-to-day lives, God is still capable of using the Word spoken to accomplish His purpose. I see where you're coming from, but that's a very fine line that one has to tread very, very carefully with much considertion given to one's motives.

[evanovitch]

Re: Examine Yourself

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So we come full circle, and face to face with the principle of Jesus' teaching in Matt. 7:1-5. I'm particularly intrigued by verses 3-5:

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

Why the intrigue? Because He called these "fruit inspectors" hypocrites. Interesting, huh?

ETA: Biblical truth is not dependent on the life of the person speaking it. Even from the mouth of the vilest of sinners, the Word remains unadulterated truth. I believe that even if someone is not living up to the standard of God's Word, i.e. not applying it to their day-to-day lives, God is still capable of using the Word spoken to accomplish His purpose. I see where you're coming from, but that's a very fine line that one has to tread very, very carefully with much considertion given to one's motives. </div></div>

that is a given...but this discussion at this point is not focussed on that ...we r or i have assumed dat we were discussing professed believers...so the aside is juss dat ...an aside...a truism, yes, but as aside nonetheless, for the purposes of the progression of the discussion

[evanovitch]

Re: Examine Yourself

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So we come full circle, and face to face with the principle of Jesus' teaching in Matt. 7:1-5. I'm particularly intrigued by verses 3-5:

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

Why the intrigue? Because He called these "fruit inspectors" hypocrites. Interesting, huh?

ETA: Biblical truth is not dependent on the life of the person speaking it. Even from the mouth of the vilest of sinners, the Word remains unadulterated truth. I believe that even if someone is not living up to the standard of God's Word, i.e. not applying it to their day-to-day lives, God is still capable of using the Word spoken to accomplish His purpose. I see where you're coming from, but that's a very fine line that one has to tread very, very carefully with much considertion given to one's motives. </div></div>

true, but it does not nullify the objections being raised and additionally, not because u apply wat u have learnt by questioning others, mean u naw apply to self and question and admit to self failings....

that passage is used too often to shut down valid questioning ....scriptural conviction opens up more awareness of self and supposed the like minded u r to gather together with....so why u cant still examine as Paul says, those who stand beside u...the premise of Christian togetherness is the latter part...an that implies u see and experience dem living in more dan di church setting...bak to the intellectual translating to di livity...

[Diplomat]

Re: Examine Yourself

I hear you, and I agree wholeheartedly that there's a time and place for valid questioning. We're agreed on the need to question professed Biblical truths from those proclaiming it, and there the motive is quite clear. However when it comes to turning the spotlight on the individual, the concern has to be the motive of those shining the spotlight. Is it to correct? To help? To critize? To tear down? To make oneself feel better / more spiritual? That, to me, is where the threat of hyprocrisy rest on the part of the 'fruit inspectors'.

[evanovitch]

Re: Examine Yourself

then we agree because if u reread a previous post i believe i did mention that the questioners have to be doing the questioning as a result of being convicted themselves....remember that self conviction BEARS FRUIT...positive connotation implied thruout so it is seen that the offshoot etc etc etc

[Diplomat]

Re: Examine Yourself

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">then we agree because if u reread a previous post i believe i did mention that the questioners have to be doing the questioning as a result of being convicted themselves....</div></div>
If you said that before, then I missed it - my apologies. I agree wholeheartedly, and in that instance, the motive would have to be that of restoring the one who is overtaken in a fault as per Galatians 6:1, especially from the Message Translation:

"Live creatively, friends. If someone falls into sin, forgivingly restore him, saving your critical comments for yourself. You might be needing forgiveness before the day's out."

But I also like the Amplied Version's as well, primarily because it defines those who are considered spiritual, the only ones qualified for this task:

"BRETHREN, IF any person is overtaken in misconduct or sin of any sort, you who are spiritual [who are responsive to and controlled by the Spirit] should set him right and restore and reinstate him, without any sense of superiority and with all gentleness, keeping an attentive eye on yourself, lest you should be tempted also."

[evanovitch]

Re: Examine Yourself

yes which come bak to all we asking of preacher and believer is to be <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">holding faith and a good conscience </div></div>

mi know u know weh dat come from CEW...an it is no coincidence dat it appears in the chapter it does wid di subjek matta it does and dat is all we a deal wid today and asking dat people stop separate one from di odda..dem is not mutually exclusive..dem is suppose to be togedda wen u ministry small and wen it get big...etc etc


an u know a good conscience includes the fact that u admit to ur shortcoming even as u recognise in ur fellow believer and u tawk out in the spirit of confession, conviction , intercessory

we hole each odda up an onward dont..r we supposed to... [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img]

[DC]

Re: Examine Yourself

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yes which come bak to all we asking of preacher and believer is to be <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">holding faith and a good conscience </div></div>

an u know a good conscience includes the fact that u admit to ur shortcoming even as u recognise in ur fellow believer and u tawk out in the spirit of confession, conviction , intercessory

we hole each odda up an onward dont..r we supposed to... [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img] </div></div>

..and that's what it should look like....especially the intercessory part..praying for others at fault, knowing that I could definitely display the same response or be in the same situation...

good convo...

[Diplomat]

Re: Examine Yourself

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yes which come bak to all we asking of preacher and believer is to be <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">holding faith and a good conscience </div></div>

mi know u know weh dat come from CEW...an it is no coincidence dat it appears in the chapter it does wid di subjek matta it does and dat is all we a deal wid today and asking dat people stop separate one from di odda..dem is not mutually exclusive..dem is suppose to be togedda wen u ministry small and wen it get big...etc etc


an u know a good conscience includes the fact that u admit to ur shortcoming even as u recognise in ur fellow believer and u tawk out in the spirit of confession, conviction , intercessory

we hole each odda up an onward dont..r we supposed to... [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img] </div></div>
Absolutely [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70409-waytogo.gif[/img]

Another insightful convo; you're not too bad after all [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70459-hugs.gif[/img]

[evanovitch]

Re: Examine Yourself

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yes which come bak to all we asking of preacher and believer is to be <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">holding faith and a good conscience </div></div>

mi know u know weh dat come from CEW...an it is no coincidence dat it appears in the chapter it does wid di subjek matta it does and dat is all we a deal wid today and asking dat people stop separate one from di odda..dem is not mutually exclusive..dem is suppose to be togedda wen u ministry small and wen it get big...etc etc


an u know a good conscience includes the fact that u admit to ur shortcoming even as u recognise in ur fellow believer and u tawk out in the spirit of confession, conviction , intercessory

we hole each odda up an onward dont..r we supposed to... [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img] </div></div>
Absolutely [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70409-waytogo.gif[/img]

Another insightful convo; you're not too bad after all [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70459-hugs.gif[/img] </div></div>

bak at u [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70456-eyebrows.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70459-hugs.gif[/img] enjoyd it indeed

[Morpheous]

Re: 72% say church is full of hypocrites

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 7777</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so rather dan seh a 72 percent of the church a hypo-crites..
why dem cant seh a 72 percent of the "world" a hypocrites..
Why pick pon we?? [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70394-bawlout.gif[/img] </div></div>
LoL... I agree

100% in and out of the church are hypocrites.
We are all hypocrites.
However some hypocrites are bigger than others; those tend to be the ones that put themselves in a position of trust and honesty for a group/public while all along they are the opposite.

[rudemonk]

Re: 72% say church is full of hypocrites

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand all of that, but my point is that those who use the argument that "the church is full of hypocrites" are being hypocrites themselves. By our very nature, none of us can attain 'perfection' in our spiritual walk, but we strive to be like Christ, understanding fully well that along the way, we're going to have some failures.
</div></div>

I would vehemently disagree with that, and so did Yashua. In fact he taught how to be perfect, how to enter the kingdom. All the time he taught this. So how can it possibly be said it is impossible.

If I were to be asked this question, my percentage would be much higher than in the 70s. The whole model is upside down.

[rudemonk]

Re: 72% say church is full of hypocrites

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." There are many other parts of the text that admonishes and challenges us to a consistent spiritual walk and submission.
</div></div>

yes exactly, this is why there are buildings called churches which are full up and bursting with hypocrisy. it's only obvious. in mendicant monastic communities are the only examples of people i can think of, in a group setting, who have actually internalized and applied the teachings.

where are the mendicants, the foxes who have no home...all members of regular churches basically conform themselves to the comfortable dictates of society, which are based in accrual of wealth/property and exploitation of the other.

it's rare that I have met a christian.