Monk--A Question

[rudemonk]

Re: Monk - It's all your Fault

[quote=Empress_Nylah]
someone else who has used this word in a sentence [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif[/img] My grade 12 teacher argued with me that dichotomous isnt a real word..... I digress

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">we just have to come to grips with these simple facts and go from there...Yashua's core teaching erases dichotomous understanding which then achieves unity with the ineffable, or God. </div></div>


well I am not just saying so, it can be proven exactly where the dichotomy (grade 12 teachers be damned) breaks down...but to get to it you need to deprogram the crutch mechanisms, the blatant ego manipulations, which supplanted what can be surmised are the actual teachings.

wouldn't you say it is curious that in all the opportunities for Yashua to lay out the salvation plan most christians claim him to preach and claim to believe in him for, he instead teaches something not really about that at all...if he even mentions it. I think a careful reader will quickly notice he never once connects his coming, ministry, work, purpose, and death with Adam and Eve's time in the Garden...

So it is pretty clear that stuff comes into the picture much later (textually we can see it's development in Paul and Augustine's usage of Jerome's mistranslations) by people who probably couldn't hack the ascetic principles of his teachings, and needed to subvert the teaching into something more. Yashua himself often makes note of how difficult his teachings actually are to internalize and make manifest...I'll never understand how people can argue something like sola fide when there are just so many examples of him teaching it must be both...and it is an arduous task- like taking up a cross. You must die to the life before. If you actually are able to internalize his way and actualize it, how on earth could you be your old self. But this is very difficult. It's not easy. It's definitely not comfortable. That is why we see him utilize so much short circuiting, turn your cheek, give to him who steals your shirt your coat. This is the stuff of nonsense...until.

So the horizon upon which he initiates the collapse of dichotomous understanding and how the self perceives it's place begins when he is asked "What is the Greatest Commandment?"

It's really quite a brilliant statement in the face of a property driven people and puts the lie to these claims of God's plan to restore man to grace through the death of his only son.

[Nylah]

Re: Monk - It's all your Fault


[img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70394-bawlout.gif[/img] I think I dont understand again

okay, so all the belief regarding the core structure of why ppl need salvation is superfluous to the fundamental beliefs/teachings of Yashua?

The greatest commandment, IMO, is about love. But you are saying that John 3:16 is irrelevant?


that's too simple..... [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70402-thinking.gif[/img]

[rudemonk]

Re: Monk - It's all your Fault

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Empress_Nylah</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

[img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70394-bawlout.gif[/img] I think I dont understand again

okay, so all the belief regarding the core structure of why ppl need salvation is superfluous to the fundamental beliefs/teachings of Yashua?

The greatest commandment, IMO, is about love. But you are saying that John 3:16 is irrelevant?

</div></div>

well not so much irrelevant...depending on what you take salvation to be...

if it said "For God so loved the world and wanted to restore Adam from his sin, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life and be reconnected to Him..." or some such other specific permutation...then I think the salvation plan as it's commonly accepted would make a lot of sense.

Yet every time Jesus is asked point blank what the deal is...he falls silent about his overarching mission and the reason thereof? Then further confuses the matter by introducing all this superfluous and irrelevant teachings, parables, sayings, and works?

Because if he were here to simply restore us- and that is honestly something which anyone taking a reasonable look at the story can see that God could have prevented and could have accomplished without having to have Jesus go through all these hoops, and if Jesus himself knew what the deal was he couldn't have had anything like doubts on the cross or the agony in the garden- well what does it matter if you do anything but just believe the formula. That's easy, it certainly makes it a lot easier to get people to follow you. Look at the rabid success of some of these easy ministries, which just tell people what they want to hear. But Yashua hardly ever told people what they wanted to hear. I'm generalizing with that last statement just to make a point.

This idea of a stand-in sacrifice is a holdover from the hebrew barbecue culture. People would do well to get in touch with the underlying concepts and try and understand them. Today nobody would condone animal sacrifice. Everyone would agree it makes no sense to kill something to appease God or gain his favor. We can all recognize that is a very low form of spirituality.

Yet 99% of all Christians believe God needs his son to die (and horribly at that) to forgive us over something which never happened- and this is proven, there can't be an Adam or Eve unless God is a prankster, because we know unequivocably that man and ape share common ancestry- and make things right.

Whoever heard of such a thing. When you disobeyed your own father or mother, imagine them asking you to burn a bird to make pleasing smoke for them so they'd look on you less harshly. How does that atone for what you did. Or better, would they stand by and let you be subverted by some evil which is totally in their power to snuff out, just to see what 'choice' you would make when that evil fulfilled it's function. I mean Eve never made a free choice. Never had a chance. God is worried his creation will be like him. That's just hoky. She didn't even have any concept of death- death never entered the garden until the fall or so we are told so how could she know the consequences of her being duped.

So I think John can be accurate when he or someone else wrote:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

But this needs to be contextualized in light of the other sayings and teachings.

[mountaingal]

Re: Monk - It's all your Fault

where is the dichotomy - between jesus story and pre-jesus story?

where is the original discussion from which this one sprang?

[Nylah]

Re: Monk - It's all your Fault


HemGee - the original thread is archived in FAQ called Monk - A Question from november.

I'm too tired to figure out how to link the thread to this one.

[img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif[/img]

[mountaingal]

Re: Monk - It's all your Fault

Thanks, Nylah - I'll go look it up.

[rudemonk]

Re: Monk - It's all your Fault

I wanted to reread it too.

http://www.jamaicans.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=633518&fpart=1

[Nylah]

Re: Monk - It's all your Fault


I really love it when you use the word "obvious" [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/whatever.gif[/img]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> You will note that many of them are quite surprised that they helped him at all. According to Yashua's brilliant construction, the passage goes out of it's way to say they did not even know they were helping Yashua, or doing this in his name even- they were doing it of their own accord and of their own understanding of what is right and just to do. Yashua says they were doing it for him, it was symbolic. Likewise, the cursed proclaim they never would have denied or turned their back on Yashua knowingly.

I mean, can it be any clearer? It's freakin genius!!!

This, I think, torpedoes quite adequately this notion of faith alone, even torpedoes the idea one need be christian to gain heaven, and cements the teachings in the application and pursuit of right actions, and that acts of righteousness are self evident and the knowledge of their pursuit intuitive- and are worthy of their own sake. Good is good, not because of a known reward to come, but simply for it's own inherent value and sake.

Also, in the synoptics such as Mark, we see recollections wherein a man- or a lawyer i think in Luke- approach Yashua and point blank ask him what he needs to do. In return, Yashua lays it out, point blank. Simply put.

Do not kill. Do not lie. Do not steal. Honor your parents.

Love God. Love thy neighbor, as yourself.

When further pressed, Yashua again point blank tells the man, only one thing dost thou lackest- sell all that thou hast, give to the poor, TAKE UP THE CROSS and follow me.

I think here we see an obvious transcendental truth also at work. The work of salvation is not comfortable. To arrive at transcendental and intuitive understanding of truth and to be able to apply it practically is not easy- when looked at from a certain perspective.

</div></div>

Couple of things:

I agree that the work of "salvation" is not comfortable. To have it truly manifest in your spirit and show outwardly in your life means that some fundamental understanding of what defines salvation has penetrated your soul. Fair enough.


But you note the brillance (and also why the message is open to all and not just Christians) of Yashua's teaching is that the truth He is teaching is self-evident. That good is good, etc. And in addtion, His followers didnt even "know" that they were following His instructions.

I guess I dont quite agree that it is summarily self-evident - meaning that I would agree and follow the teachings without the intervention of God or the Holy Spirit within me. They may seem self-evident because of His indwelling, and not just because.

[rudemonk]

Re: Monk - It's all your Fault

well you are right, because one half of his audience did NOT realize it so for them it was not self evident...probably a better way to put it is that eventually...with discipline and training and awareness, what is hidden can be revealed, and at that point awareness becomes self evident. Some people do get this naturally, but others must work very hard to understand it. Many fail. This realization and actualization can be the most difficult part, because for a lot of people they will just succumb to the easy part, remain comfortable and just live out their time as they can- just go to Church, pray, ask God for things, make a donation, and then Jesus will save you in the end. But that is not really possible and to think that you have to sort of ignore a lot of parts of the story, yashua can not die for your sins per se, he can die only to show the way to sacrifice your own self to the self.

but occlusion of what buddhist call your original "mind" occurs naturally- look at everything society throws on you from when you were a child to how you grow up.

yesterday I was stuck in traffic. it was rush hour traffic. it made me think back to when I would ride the train into the city and home, EVERY day I spent over 3-4 hrs of my time in this process. I won't say I lost that time, but still...and looking around me there were thousands of people doing this and to what end.

[DC]

More on Buddhism..Becoming a Buddhist

Sometimes its hard to believe in this forum, but there are other religions other than christianity. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img] I found this article and thought it was plain and simple information on Buddhism. Maybe Monk can also add his thoughts..as he had done in a previous thread..

Deciding to Become A Buddhist
How to Join the Buddhist Religion <span style="color: #FF0000">Source</span>

When one believes one is truly ready to follow the Buddhist path as a their religion, one's next step is to take the Refuge Vows
Buddhism can be approached either as a philosophy or a religion. If it is approached as a philosophy, it can be used to live one's life in a more logical, compassionate manner. Buddhism can also be used as a religion.
Should a person, after proper reflection, wish to pursue Buddhism as a religion, one has to take the Refuge Vow. The Buddhist religion by and large frowns upon proselytizing, so the decision to formally join the Buddhist religion is created to be a very private one. Although taking the vow is simple, it should only be done once one is certain in their hearts that the Buddhist religion is right for them.

Unlike other religions which require a baptism or some elaborate ceremony, all that is required to become a Buddhist is to promise that from now on, one will take refuge in what is called the Three Jewels; the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha.

The vow can be taken more than once, and can be first taken as a part of a Refuge Ceremony or in the course of participating in another ceremony, such as an empowerment. The vow can be made aloud or silently so only the person taking the vow knows that they have taken it.
The words of the vow say that from now until one reaches Enlightenment, one will take refuge in the Buddha Jewel, the Dharma Jewel and the Sangha Jewel.

Refuge In Buddha
Buddha is of course, Buddha Shakyamuni. He created the path which all Buddhists follow to achieve the end of suffering in their lives and reach Enlightenment. In taking this vow, one is taking refuge also in the qualities of the Buddha, which one already has inside of them. As one practices Buddhism, one will learn how to discover these wonderful qualities and begin more and more to rely on them.
One should understand that the Buddha was once a man who lived a full secular life indulging in all material pleasures, until he recognized that life in the material world brought no peace. Instead it brought much suffering to himself and everyone he knew. So, he set out to discover a way to truly live a peaceful and happy life. In doing so, he also developed great compassion; a wish to help all others find the same peace. By taking refuge, one will follow this same path from suffering to peace, to Enlightenment, using the life of Buddha as ones guide.

Reference In Dharma
Dharma is the teaching of Buddha. Because of Buddha Shakyamuni’s long life, he was able to give 84,000 different teachings. These teachings are separated into the Sutra teachings and the Tantra teachings. Reading and following these teachings help one to reach Enlightenment.
Buddha told his followers not to believe what he said strictly because he said it. In other words, he said do not accept what he taught on blind faith. Buddha advised his students to apply what he said to their own lives and see if it resonated for them. After doing so, one begins to believe what the Buddha said and to have faith in his teachings; seeing them as practical, logical and useful ways of dealing with the trials and tribulations of life. Once one has found faith in the Buddha’s words, it is easy to take refuge in the Dharma jewel.
Refuge in Sangha

The Sangha Jewel is the body of ordained members of the group where one practices. In most cases, the Sangha, or ordained monks and nuns, are constantly working to improve their knowledge and understanding of the dharma and therefore more often have a deeper knowledge than a lay practitioner. Plus, based on the vows they take, they should also be working on improving their compassion towards others and therefore these Sangha can and should be called on not just for their knowledge, but to lend a shoulder in time of need as well as a great role model.

By taking the Refuge Vows and enlisting the aid of the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha one will begin on the path to attaining the ultimate goal of a Buddhist practitioner, Enlightenment.

[Gen]

Re: More on Buddhism..Becoming a Buddhist

[img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/yahoo.gif[/img] your timing is perfect. was there another thread on this topic ? I rarely come down here because I see the same thing over and over.


preach mi friend preach [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70371-jump.gif[/img]

[Blackstar*]

Re: More on Buddhism..Becoming a Buddhist

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tek_weh_yuhself</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/yahoo.gif[/img] your timing is perfect. was there another thread on this topic ? I rarely come down here because I see the same thing over and over.


preach mi friend preach [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70371-jump.gif[/img] </div></div>
Same here. Great article, SR.

[rudemonk]

Re: More on Buddhism..Becoming a Buddhist

the best way to become buddhist, or better to say, become a buddha, is to not even realize it.

a great master once likened it to when you were a child. you were never tired, you ran to and fro, boundless, everything was unconditioned and no thought was given for the morrow. another story to make the point, two great masters and their disciples met. One disciple exclaimed to the other, my master has achieved the highest level of practice. He can do fantastic and wonderful things, I have seen him walk across a river and not get wet! So...what can your master do?" And so the next disciple says, "My Master eats when it is time to eat, and sleeps when it is time to sleep."

in my opinion and if you understand gotama, he never wanted there to be an 'ism'. every sentient being has within itself the potential to become a Buddha- which means The One Thus Come, or the Awakened One. As an example, the Buddha felt that the best way to achieve enlightenment was to become a part of the monastic community, the Sangha. But when he died, the community quickly devolved and needed governance. So all the teachings the Buddha gave to individuals were codified into a rule set. To show how corruption encroached, the rule set developed into 250 precepts for men, and 500 for women.

compounding this is that none of the teachings which he dispensed were written down contemperary to his life, they were compiled afterwards.

So you can see how something can be religified. I know that is not a word but it sounds pretty good. There are sects however, which have cut away the corruptions by developing the mind of the practitioner. Then it is only more and more obvious.

Many people refer to the 3 jewels, but during my ceremony- which was a little different than just becoming an 'official' buddhist- they are actually referred to as the most precious thing, so precious as to be indescribable, to which no value can be assigned. Jewel is I guess a convenient way to refer to that.

I don't think it is correct to say he created the path, more like he recognized the path and found his way to achieve it- because the Dharma, for it to be true and effective, it must be self evident, inherent, and intuitive. There were Buddhas before him and Buddhas after, Buddhas who never heard of him.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Silent_River</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sometimes its hard to believe in this forum, but there are other religions other than christianity. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img] I found this article and thought it was plain and simple information on Buddhism. Maybe Monk can also add his thoughts..as he had done in a previous thread..

Deciding to Become A Buddhist
How to Join the Buddhist Religion <span style="color: #FF0000">Source</span>

When one believes one is truly ready to follow the Buddhist path as a their religion, one's next step is to take the Refuge Vows
Buddhism can be approached either as a philosophy or a religion. If it is approached as a philosophy, it can be used to live one's life in a more logical, compassionate manner. Buddhism can also be used as a religion.
Should a person, after proper reflection, wish to pursue Buddhism as a religion, one has to take the Refuge Vow. The Buddhist religion by and large frowns upon proselytizing, so the decision to formally join the Buddhist religion is created to be a very private one. Although taking the vow is simple, it should only be done once one is certain in their hearts that the Buddhist religion is right for them.

Unlike other religions which require a baptism or some elaborate ceremony, all that is required to become a Buddhist is to promise that from now on, one will take refuge in what is called the Three Jewels; the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha.

The vow can be taken more than once, and can be first taken as a part of a Refuge Ceremony or in the course of participating in another ceremony, such as an empowerment. The vow can be made aloud or silently so only the person taking the vow knows that they have taken it.
The words of the vow say that from now until one reaches Enlightenment, one will take refuge in the Buddha Jewel, the Dharma Jewel and the Sangha Jewel.

Refuge In Buddha
Buddha is of course, Buddha Shakyamuni. He created the path which all Buddhists follow to achieve the end of suffering in their lives and reach Enlightenment. In taking this vow, one is taking refuge also in the qualities of the Buddha, which one already has inside of them. As one practices Buddhism, one will learn how to discover these wonderful qualities and begin more and more to rely on them.
One should understand that the Buddha was once a man who lived a full secular life indulging in all material pleasures, until he recognized that life in the material world brought no peace. Instead it brought much suffering to himself and everyone he knew. So, he set out to discover a way to truly live a peaceful and happy life. In doing so, he also developed great compassion; a wish to help all others find the same peace. By taking refuge, one will follow this same path from suffering to peace, to Enlightenment, using the life of Buddha as ones guide.

Reference In Dharma
Dharma is the teaching of Buddha. Because of Buddha Shakyamuni’s long life, he was able to give 84,000 different teachings. These teachings are separated into the Sutra teachings and the Tantra teachings. Reading and following these teachings help one to reach Enlightenment.
Buddha told his followers not to believe what he said strictly because he said it. In other words, he said do not accept what he taught on blind faith. Buddha advised his students to apply what he said to their own lives and see if it resonated for them. After doing so, one begins to believe what the Buddha said and to have faith in his teachings; seeing them as practical, logical and useful ways of dealing with the trials and tribulations of life. Once one has found faith in the Buddha’s words, it is easy to take refuge in the Dharma jewel.
Refuge in Sangha

The Sangha Jewel is the body of ordained members of the group where one practices. In most cases, the Sangha, or ordained monks and nuns, are constantly working to improve their knowledge and understanding of the dharma and therefore more often have a deeper knowledge than a lay practitioner. Plus, based on the vows they take, they should also be working on improving their compassion towards others and therefore these Sangha can and should be called on not just for their knowledge, but to lend a shoulder in time of need as well as a great role model.

By taking the Refuge Vows and enlisting the aid of the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha one will begin on the path to attaining the ultimate goal of a Buddhist practitioner, Enlightenment.
</div></div>

[Diplomat]

Re: More on Buddhism..Becoming a Buddhist

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tek_weh_yuhself</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/yahoo.gif[/img] your timing is perfect. was there another thread on this topic ? I rarely come down here because I see the same thing over and over.


preach mi friend preach [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70371-jump.gif[/img] </div></div>
So instead of waiting for someone to post something you're interested in, why don't you post something new/different? Sounds reasonable and fairly simple, no?

[Mutty]

Re: More on Buddhism..Becoming a Buddhist

I sometimes post about Islam and all I get are chirping crickets.