Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

[Guest]

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

I don't know why you have this fixation with homosexuality, but I'm done for now with it. That minister misrepresents biblical teaching and by his complicity with homosexuals and their lifestyle, he is condemning them to life of misery now and potentially much worse in the life to come. He is therefore a fraud. But, you did write a couple of things that are of interest.

Whose interpretation of the Bible is valid? Is there only one interpretation? What do we do with the contradictions within the Bible (such as "an eye for an eye" and "turn the other cheek", to name one most are familiar with).

Whose interpretation of the Bible is valid?

That's an excellent question, but I'm not going to answer it. It relates to a post I made to JM1 earlier in this thread regarding the Church. Some other Christian can take it.

Does Jesus "override" what is written in the Old Testament?

That's an easy question for any Christian, so I'll just copy and paste from some site I just found with a quick search.

Jesus is the substance of the shadows, the antitype of the types, and the very epitome of all the moral enunciations of the law. Jesus said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill" (Matt. 5: 17). Notice the next verse, "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" (vs. 18). Jesus fulfilled the law and inaugurated his system or testament (Lk. 24: 44, 47). Christ's system is not without law, but the onerous system of Moses was nailed to Jesus' cross (Gal. 6: 2, Col. 2: 14, see addendum). Jesus' apostles are "able ministers of the new testament" (2 Cor. 3: 6). The Law of Moses could not impart life (2 Cor. 3: 7-18). The law was only a "schoolmaster to bring us (Jew, dm) unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith" (Gal. 3: 24). "But after that faith is come," Paul continued, "we are no longer under a schoolmaster" (vs. 25). Paul warned regarding any who would attempt justification by the Law of Moses. Hear him: "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace" (Gal. 5: 4). One cannot be saved by a system of meritorious works that seek to earn salvation and by grace at the same time (Rom. 11: 6). John said, "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (Jn. 1: 17).

In conclusion, Christ sustained a unique position to the Law of Moses. He promoted it and flawlessly kept its precepts. Of greater importance: Christ was the end of the law in that he fulfilled it. Jesus became the ultimate and perpetual sacrifice for the sins of the world (Heb. 7-9). Jesus has all authority in heaven and earth and we are to hear him (Matt. 28: 18; 17: 5). Jesus is to be heard over Moses and Elias (law and prophets, Matt. 17: 4, 5). "For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses…And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant…But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we…," argued the writer of Hebrews (Heb. 3: 3, 5, 6).

http://www.bibletruths.net/Archives/BTAR127.htm

[ohliz]

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

Originally posted by Angelfire:
I don't know why you have this fixation with homosexuality,

It was in the sermon and you questioned it, as I recall.

but I'm done for now with it.

Hard to argue with common sense. If you do come up with anything to say, my offer to go to a new thread stands. This is an important issue for me because it affects people I love. GOOD people.

[mountaingal]

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

ohliz - could you please edit your post above to take the bold off the minister's sermon? I'm having a hard time reading it. Tonks!!

[JM1]

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

"Absolutely nothing. Yet there it is, that's the period of time that passes between creation and basically, now...do you disagree with that? I doubt that any Biblical writers thought we would do that, no, but then again, who knows what they were thinking would happen to their books thousands of years after they wrote them?"

Hi there ohliz. Hope you slept well.

So here we are with "Bible math" once again. The astonishing thing about "Bible math" is that there appears to be absolutely no limit to what we can actually make Scripture say if we really put our minds to it. Especially in the absence of any declarative statements within the text itself that addresses whatever it is that we are trying to get the Bible to say. Take for example this business of equidistant letter spacing. There are very serious people out there who figure that by assigning number values to each letter of the Hebrew alphabet that are able to find statistically unusual patterns that emerge when these are computed in various ways, or, as you said, when you "do the math". Using this methodology, one apparently can find references to Hitler, the assassinations of both Kennedys and that of Yitzack Rabin, amongst other things. I have no doubt that if you "do the math", why you may have even been able to find the winning number for that large lottery prize in California the other day. Do I disagree with that ? Absolutely, but then as you say "there it is".

It turns out that we actually agree. You said " I doubt that any Biblical writers thought we would do that" and you are absolutely right. I give as much credence to calculating the alleged age of the earth in this manner as I do to calculations that allegedly determine when Christ will return, or when Hitler was to have been born or any other of these exercises in "Bible math" . We may or may not be agreeing for the same reason but there it is. Let us end on a note of agreement.

"What is the "not" revisionist interpretation of what Christ's death on the cross really means? How do you judge one to be right and the others to be "revisionist"? Hasn't the Bible been interpreted and reinterpreted for thousands of years?"

As luck would have it, the Bible itself happens to address this very question, in many, many, places. So the basis for my use of the term "revisionist" is an interpretation that is at odds with what Scripture itself declares the purpose of the life, death and resurrection of our Lord to be.

[JM1]

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

ohliz, I fear that you are a lonely little petunia in an onion patch"

Hi Reggae Plus. Well this onion looked up in the sky last night and there was a blue moon in the sky ! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Wahalla]

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

I have been reading this thread for a while but declined posting...

First off my standard disclaimer whenever I post here.. I am an atheist. This simply means I beleiver in one less religion than any proponent of any religion.

I am however a proponent of tolerance, diversity, social justice and secular society.
Why ? It is a necessity for the survival. Seeing I am always the minority being diferentialed by my country of origin, lack of religion, passport, colour,colour of hair, (Try going to Norway with dark colour hair!), unapealing quality of my visage, body odour, bad breath and inteligence…

I believe that all the above are interlinked and it is impossible to view / have them individually.

Tolerance comes with a price tag. It means no matter how painful another persons belief is personally, it has to have the same respect as one expects for ones own.

Tolerance has to be tempered by Social Justice. I am a firm believer in the fact that a tolerant society has to be secular. (Here I note that the reverse is not true). The US and the South African constitutions do enshrine the principles of tolerance, the acceptance of diversity and the principle of a secular society. I am amazed that considering the time of the American constitution was originally drafted that the separations of church and state were included.

Tolerance gives the room for diversity to develop thus each feeds off the other.

It is my opinion that all religions claim theirs are exclusively right and herein lies the seeds of intolerance. Until I hear all believers admit that theirs is not the only possible right religion. But then I am closer to becoming a satanist the more I read this forum…….. After all it has been hinted that the devil is being served by accepting tolerance and diversity. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

The fundamental tenant of Rossuea “ All men are created equal” seems to me that each individual beleifs are equal. And I am of the opinion that no-one can dictate what is right or wrong for another after the individual reaches the age of 16. Now we could debate the rights of the subaverage till the cows come home. Note the sexism in the above quote, I recall been a smart arse asking the teacher if women were not created equal as well!

I know without the independence of the state from the church (religion) one becomes force fed the beliefs of a minority.

[Guest]

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

Wahalla weighs in:

And I am of the opinion that no-one can dictate what is right or wrong for another after the individual reaches the age of 16.

What a great idea! Let's do away with all laws both civil and religious. But since atheists don't have "silly" religions anyway they only need to do away with civil law. Forget about the chaos that would result. We can deal with that when the time comes.

But then I am closer to becoming a satanist the more I read this forum

Philosophically Satanism might work for you, but I believe they have some laws / rituals etc. that would restrict your freedom. Try something else. Unitarians might work.

[Guest]

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

Ohliz writes:

This is an important issue for me because it affects people I love. GOOD people.

If that's really true then you ought to stop listening to ministers like the one above and look at this issue in strictly pragmatic terms. Simply agreeing and supporting someone who is intent on shortening their lives by decades and making that life a battle with disease and abuse (mostly from the series of partners they have) is NOT doing that person any favor. You do not love them by agreeing with their self-destructive behavior. Loving them is getting them help and praying that they are responsive to it and supporting them in their struggle to over come.

There are serious life threatening medical, psychological, and social consequences to homosexuality. Look and study the scientific literature if you haven't done so already. You may directly affect only one of these people you "love" but that one will thank you for the rest of their lives.

[ohliz]

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

If that's really true then you ought to stop listening to ministers like the one above and look at this issue in strictly pragmatic terms. Simply agreeing and supporting someone who is intent on shortening their lives by decades and making that life a battle with disease and abuse (mostly from the series of partners they have)

The main person I'm talking about (though I know many gay people) has been in one monogamous relationship for 10 years, quite a bit longer than many heterosexual people I know.

their self-destructive behavior.

I don't think it's self-destructive and you've declined to attempt to convince me. I thought for sure the that getting Leviticus out would interest you but it appears you have no response to what I wrote.

There are serious life threatening medical,

Such as..? What do they smoke cigarettes more or something? Greater incidence of cancer? What?

psychological, and social consequences to homosexuality.

The only serious psychological and social consequences I see, and they are certainly not minor, are created by people who condemn, exclude, marginalize, attack, and even kill people who are gay.

I'd remind you that Jesus didn't ever say anything about gay people, or being gay, or not being gay. He did say a lot about love and tolerance though...

..and I'm ready to discuss any passage in the Bible that you want to bring up that you think does say being gay is against God's wishes for us.

Stop listening to that minister? I agree 100% with everything he said, that's why I posted it here.

[Guest]

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

I wrote:
There are serious life threatening medical,

You responded.
Such as..? What do they smoke cigarettes more or something? Greater incidence of cancer? What?

For someone who is so "interested" in this subject, you know very little about it.

<ul type="square">
[*]A significantly decreased likelihood of establishing or preserving a successful marriage[*]A twenty-five to thirty-years decrease in life expectancy[*]Chronic, potentially fatal, liver disease-infectious hepatitis, which increases the risk of liver cancer[*]Inevitably fatal immune disease including associated cancers[*]Frequently fatal rectal cancer[*]Multiple bowel and other infectious diseases[*]A much higher than usual incidence of suicide[*]A very low likelihood that its adverse effects can be eliminated unless the condition itself is
[/list]


Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth by Jeffrey Satinover, M.D. 1996

I agree 100% with everything he (the pro homosexual minister) said, that's why I posted it here.

Your fixation with this subject is, to say the least, interesting. I have known and love a few people who are engaged in acts detrimental to their health and life (alcoholism, drugs) but I have not become an advocate for them or their self-destructive behavior.

You are absolutely unapproachable and it's a waste of my time to continue. Read the book if you want to learn something, but I don't expect you to do it.

You can have the last word.

Good-bye.

[ohliz]

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

Wow. Because I don't agree with you I'm "unapproachable"? Maybe I'm just right.

You cannot come up with any biblical justification for your position.

I'll take the last word on that, thanks.

[mountaingal]

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

thanks, ohliz, for taking the bold off your post up top. I read it and really appreciate the words of the Minister. It means a lot to me to hear about how Christ dealt with conditions of the time, because I think that is so difficult for many of us today, and many of us who call ourselves Christian. I've gotten so disheartened when speaking to young people who've shut their minds against doing anything to make today's world a better place because they believe their goal is to save themselves for the afterlife, and their main preoccupation is with rigidly following rules that distance them from hard decisions about dealing with and understanding their fellow human beings.

If it's easy enough for you to do, I'd like to read the next installment of the Minister's series.

[ohliz]

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

Check your private messages, mountaingal.

[img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Liz

[ohliz]

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

Actually, there is one other that deals specifically with our topic here of tolerance:

Do Muslims and Christians Worship the Same God?
Sunday, October 28, 2001

Isaiah 55:6-12, Matthew 5:43-48

The occasion for this sermon is a letter from a member of the congregation expressing concern that some were saying, “Muslims and Christians worship the same God.” This question has a sense of urgency not only because the terrorists who attacked the World Trade Center and the Pentagon were Muslims, but also because the suspected mastermind of the attacks, Osama bin Laden, has said that it was “God Almighty” who struck America on September 11th.

As Jon B so ably reminded us last Sunday, Muslims are adherents of the religion of Islam, the name of the religion based on the revelations uttered by the Prophet Muhammad in Arabia in the seventh century and collected shortly after his death in the volume called the Koran (Arabic Qur’ân). The word Islam means “surrendering” to the will of God, and is the religion of people throughout the world, not simply the Middle East. There are, for example, more Muslims in the United States than Jews or Episcopalians. While Jews, Muslims and Christians have important things in common, all three faiths understand God in different ways. Not only that, within each of these faith traditions, people understand God in different ways. And, I must admit, when I heard some well-known Christian preachers saying on September 12 that God was responsible for the terrible events the day before in order to teach liberals, feminists, homosexuals, abortion advocates and the ACLU a lesson, I asked myself if I worshipped the same God they did. We share the same Bible and believe in Jesus but understand God in radically different ways. Within the religion of Islam Muslims also understand God in different ways. Isn’t it true that the God we worship is the God we have come to know in our own faith journeys? Christians are part of a tradition that believes that God was and is revealed in the Bible but decisively through the person of Jesus Christ. The Christian claim is that the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus is the very “clearest” window we have to “see” God. Does that mean that God is not revealed to some other peoples in some other ways at some other times? The text we read from the prophet Isaiah today is a reminder that we are “creatures” not “the Creator.” We are “humans” and not “God.” In his words to the exiles in Babylon, the prophet speaks for God in the words, “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.” (Isaiah 55:8-9)

While the words of Isaiah call us to humility in our pronouncements about where and to whom God has chosen to be revealed, we are not left adrift on “a sea of relativism.” One of the things we can see through the “window” of Jesus Christ is that God would never sanction the kind of attack launched against the World Trade Center and the Pentagon on September 11th. We should also pause to note that the God seen in the Koran does not sanction terrorist acts either. Jon reminded us that the Muslim terrorists do not have a monopoly on distorting scripture to suit their own ends. Over the centuries some Christians have chosen to ignore Jesus as the “clearest” window on God and used other parts of the Bible to justify the most inhumane acts and policies, including subjugation of women as property with no rights, the defense of slavery, doctrines of racial superiority, and justification for discriminating against gays and lesbians. Perhaps you read Ellen G's column in last Sunday’s Bulletin. This columnist for the Boston Globe reminded us that, even before the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City, Americans in reproductive health clinics have known the fear of terrorism first hand for over a decade. Over the years, 150 clinics have been bombed or burned. Seven people have been killed. These clinics also received their first anthrax threats in 1998. Some of the envelopes had return addresses from government offices marked, “Time Sensitive – Urgent Security Notice – Open Immediately.” Some of those envelopes were filled with powder and notes that suggested anthrax, but at least so far, have not been. The threats were signed “The Army of God.” ¹

These are not from Muslim terrorists. These are from terrorists within this country who would justify their acts on some part of the Bible. But Goodman is right that domestic and foreign terrorists are “joined at the head.” They share the same intolerance. What is even more chilling, she reminds us, is that “The Army of God” and the soldiers of the jihad find support in the words of those who would never fly a plane into a tower or send anthrax to a senator. They receive inspiration from people who ‘merely’ provide a ‘moral’ framework for violence by labeling Americans as 'infidels' or doctors as 'murderers'.

When we contemplate the horror of September 11th and the bio-terrorism more recently, we are angry. Our government is charged to protect its citizens. The U.S. Marines have a saying, “No one wants to fight, but someone had better know how.” In the face of this new kind and scale of terrorism, the challenge is unlike any other our nation has faced. The question is not only how to respond to the threat, but how do we respond with moral and legal restraint so that we do not become as lawless as our attackers?

In a free and democratic society sometimes it is necessary to make the hard decisions to send soldiers into harms way. It is also the citizen’s responsibility to ask hard questions of our government when the decisions to send our young men and women into harm’s way are made, and when decisions are made to use weapons against another country. Asking the questions is not easy, nor is it unpatriotic. In this case, I believe we as citizens know the questions to ask. First, are we following the due process of convincingly identifying the perpetrators and their backers? Second, are we making the maximum effort to obtain approval for the use of force from the international community of nations? Third, is our use of force consistent with international law – that is, does it discriminate between military and civilian targets? Is it proportionate to the challenge? Does it avoid unnecessary suffering? Or, as someone put it recently, finding the guilty terrorists is as difficult as finding a “needle in a haystack,” but we don’t want to burn the haystack to find the needle. Fourth, is the political and moral justification for the use of force accompanied by the protection of those who share an ethnic or religious identity with the targets of military action? I believe these are the questions guiding our President and the Congress. Although people may disagree about the answers, aren’t questions like these the questions citizens who live in a free and democratic society must continue to ask of our elected representatives?

I hope we understand our role as citizens, but what roles do we have as Christians? As citizens we owe allegiance to our nation, but as Christians we owe a higher allegiance to God. In history, when Christians didn’t distinguish between the two allegiances, they nearly always have gotten into trouble. As Christians we are called to a sense of justice not limited to “national interest.” We are called to a sense of compassion not limited to our borders.

Those who died on September 11th are not the only victims of distorted religious faith. Some of you have been reading about the suffering of women in Afghanistan since the takeover by the Taliban in 1996. Ironically, the word Taliban means “students of Muslim religious studies.” The same distortion of the religion of Islam that justified the attacks of September 11th also has been used to justify new levels in the repression of women in Afghanistan. This is the way the situation was characterized by an NBC reporter on October 5th. “Under Taliban’s harsh regime and its extreme interpretation of Islamic law, women are not allowed to go to school, work or even leave their homes without a close male relative accompanying them. And when they do go outside, women have to cover themselves completely in a burqa — a heavy veil that covers every inch of their body. Even their faces are obscured, with the exception of a thick mesh cloth, which covers their eyes. Breaking the Taliban’s rules can mean anything from flogging, to death by stoning. Many women have ended up on the streets begging for money. Some have even resorted to prostitution in order to buy a piece of bread, women’s rights workers say. A report published in 1999 by the Physicians for Human Rights [a Nobel Peace Prize winning group of health care professionals based in Boston, Massachusetts] reveals some shocking statistics: 97 percent of Afghan women are in a state of major depression, 42 percent suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder, and 21 percent have had suicidal thoughts quite or extremely often.” ² Although we have our own history of discrimination against women, a battle that is still not over, we must not be blind to the incredible suffering of women in Afghanistan. They are as much victims of distorted religion as are the victims of September 11th. If we really believe that Jesus Christ is a “window” through which we can understand God, then we know that more is asked of us than in our roles as citizens of a country. Jesus said, “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, ‘Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven.” This passage concludes with the admonition, “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matthew 5:43-48) What is meant here is not that we “be perfect” in the sense that our every act and thought is right, but rather that our love is to “be complete” like a circle not excluding anyone, even as God’s love does not exclude anyone. Is that not a part of our faith? If we simply discard that in the heat of anger and the desire for retribution, do we not risk distorting Christianity just as the terrorists have distorted Islam?

While we cannot answer the question about whether Christians and Muslims worship the same God, we do know what the God we worship calls us to do and be. In the aftermath of the First World War, Quakers had come to a war-ravaged village in Europe and were distributing food and clothing. One of the relief workers contracted typhus and died within twenty-four hours. Only Roman Catholic cemeteries existed and church law forbade burying anyone not of that confession in consecrated ground. Therefore, the villagers buried their friend in a grave just outside the cemetery. The next morning, however, it was discovered that the villagers had moved the fence during the night so that the cemetery now included the grave.³

As Christians we are called to be “fence-movers.” On September 12th that is what a Baptist minister in Athens, Georgia decided to do. Two blocks down from his church was a mosque. He had never met the Imam (a Muslim cleric). He walked to the mosque, knocked on the door, and introduced himself: “We are neighbors. It is time we started talking.” Before the visit was over they had planned a cookout for their congregations together. Even in times of war and great fear, we are called to be witnesses that God does not love Americans more than Afghans, that God does not love Christians more than Muslims or Jews, that God does not love men more than women. The question for us is not “Do Muslims and Christians worship the same God?” Only God knows the answer to that one. The question for us is, “Do we follow the God we worship?”

______________________

¹Ellen Goodman, “Clinics have dealt with domestic terrorism for years,” The Bulletin, Sunday, October 21, 2001, Section F, p. 2.

²Yuka Tachibana, “Afghan Women Defy Taliban,” MSNBC, October 5, 2001. See a summary of the Physicians for Human Rights study, The Taliban's War on Women: A Health and Human Rights Crisis in Afghanistan Executive Summary online at http://www.phrusa.org/research/health_effects/exec.html

³Douglas V. Steere, Mutual Irradiation (Pendle Hill: Sowers Printing Company, 1971), p. 7.

[mountaingal]

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

I am moved by this sermon. I wish it could be shared in the political forums (though I wouldn't tempt fate, lol!).

Thanks so much for posting this, Liz. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]