Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

**ohliz** · 03-05-2002, 05:12 PM

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

Glad you liked it. I found it moving too, for some reason I get choked up at that last story about the villagers moving the cemetery fence to include the grave of the aid worker.

It's not particularly political and I don't think I would have posted it at all except it fit in so well with this particular topic.

[img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Liz

**mountaingal** · 03-05-2002, 06:20 PM

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

Hi, Liz. I'm glad you posted it. I mentioned the political forums because I think a lot of political action is based on religious belief, and sometimes it DOES get a little contentious to say that one set of political action trumps or justifies another because of the (often unspoken) relgious ethics that underly the actor. Man, there has been so many religious metaphors thrown around in the whole Sep. 11 thing on all sides!

**Dyoll** · 03-05-2002, 08:54 PM

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

JMI and Angelfire:

Some events of the Bible have been confirmed by archeologial discoveries. No reasonable person denies that fact.

However, the importance of the so-called Dead Sea Scrolls has been greatly exagerated to fit the Judea-Christian view of 'history.' A "consensus interpertation" was put forth to counter a non-partisan examination, the effect of which would diminish aspects of Christian theological tradition. For a long time following the discovery of the Scrolls at Qumran, only a handful of individuals had access to the materials. Only recently has the Scroll been available to scholars of all stripes. I have seen translations of the Scrolls and they are fragmented. The 'editing' process, it would seem to me, would make it possible for all kinds of judgments to be made on the part of the translators. See the book The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception by Michael Baigent and Richard Leigh, two Biblical archeologists who studied under the renowned Robert Eisenman one of the foremost experts in Bibblical archeology and scholarship. I know that there are lots of Christian archeologists today who are eager to make the claims for their various theological positions, pretty much like the way conservatives have been using psuedo-scientists in an attempt to 'prove' that global warming is a myth of the "tree-hugging left" while they pursue policies which wreak havoc on the environment. But I digress.

JMI asked about the literary/historical approach. That's basically looking at the Bible through the lenses of various literary devices, as well as seeing if the the parts of the Bible that are purported to be history stand up to serious historical enquiry. Are certain grand, supernatural stories just mythys (invented or borrowed) to convey a larger, deeper message, or are for real? Is the Jesus of faith reconcilable with the Jesus of history? These are the questions raised by this approach. And I should say that I'm not one who questions the existence of Jesus. There are accounts in secular sources about him, including those contained in the writings of Josephus who lived around the time of Jesus. And though the stories of his birth (a virgin was impregnated by a god producing a god-child) and his miracles and ascension all have parallels in ancient Egyptian and Greek mythologies, these do not prove that there was no such person called Jesus. However, to say that he is divine is quite another matter.

Science is about evidence. Religion, as far I'm concerned, is about faith/belief. I don't know that religion can be subjected to the same methods of scientific enquiry. One is free to believe all the fantastic stories of the Bible, to take them as literal - such is the nature of religious belief. And it should be respected. I defend your right to hold your particular beliefs. I only hope you extend that same respect to me and others who believe differently.

Again, I repeat an earlier point. As long as religious practices don't violate human rights, diversity and tolerance are to be celebrated. The superiority that some feel to others of a different viewpoint have led to severe instances of barbarism in the past. Jews massacred their "heathen" neighbors under the "directive" of Yahweh, Catholics killed Jews, Arabs and "heretic" Christians during the Crusades and Inquisition, over in England, Prostestants were no less unkind to Catholics, Arabs were intolerant of Jews and Christians, they even killed some of them (though not on a scale of that of Christians). The religious intolerance continued throughout the ages where Puritans brought intolerance with them into the New England States and Mid-Atlantic America (ear-cropping, 'Sunday Laws,' Salem witch-burning, etc.) Witness the current impasse between Jews and Muslims (fanatical Islamists) in the Middle East, or the current violence between Hindus and Muslims in India which has claimed over 500 lives in a week.

The Christian Right in America in immensely intolerant. And I'm not refering to militia groups in Montana or the "First Church of the Creation," a white supremacist group based in Illinois, or even right-wing nuts who bomb abortion clinics. I'm talking about those who want the "christianization of America" and almost a theocracy where their religious dogmas become public policy. The might of the state would be employed in the enforcement of their religious viewpoints. Now that would be the end of religious freedom.

**Dyoll** · 03-05-2002, 09:04 PM

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

Originally posted by JM1:
That's all very interesting, but since the Book of Genesis is neither a science text, nor a treatise on the methodologies used by God to create, I remain curious as to why scientists would want to "take issue"with what is written there.

Why not? The Book of Genesis offers an account of how the world came into being. It is perfectly legitimate for scientists to subject that account to scientific enquiry.

**ohliz** · 03-05-2002, 09:55 PM

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

Science is about evidence. Religion, as far I'm concerned, is about faith/belief.

I agree. They are separate. Who posted the bit about leaving a "mental space for religion"? I like that. Religion doesn't follow the same rules. If you want to prove to me that fire doesn't burn without oxygen, light a fire and put a jar over it and we'll see what happens. If you want to prove, or disprove the existence of God, well, good luck.

I have trouble understanding the creation/evolution in schools debate for this reason. The story of creation is a matter of religious faith, evolution is a matter of science. It is certainly not the only area where the two are not in agreement.

Let the scientists teach their truth in science class and the creationists teach their truth in Sunday School. Seems so simple to me.

If religion were provable by science, what would faith be for?

**accepted77** · 03-05-2002, 11:16 PM

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

Angelfire

Just want to comment on that "faith without works is dead bit", while James was urging christians to get involved in the work of winning souls not to the exclusion of tending to each others needs, he was not advocating in the wide sense you are a movement towards christian activism. We can debate this if you care to.

Whereas as you mentioned the 'Jews' set about to decimate the resident population in Caanan we do have two distinctly, different mandates.

1. God intended the ISREAL AS A PEOPLE to be an example of his righteousness to the world at that time.
2. This is similar but not the same mandate given to the church in this time, go ye into all the world, not stay in Jerusalem.

One group was commanded to stay in the land of your fathers and obey all my statues and treat strangers kindly who would accept your standards of righteousness.

To the other group, A NEW commandment I give unto you Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart....and thy neighbour as thyself, but Jesus went further, he said "its is said love your neighbour, but I say unto you love your enemies, do good to them that ....use you".

The verses you quoted were before the church was born, Jesus also warned his disciples to go not to the Gentiles. However after he arose the command was go unto the world.

The church has a better covenant, a wider mission, WE ARE SENT OUT TO THE FEILDS, all the feilds not a select group or nation.

Paul ascribed to being all things to all people to win men to Christ, to the greek a greek, to the Jew a Jew to the Roman a Roman....

And not all 'works' is with hands, the early church 'prayed' and shook the buildings where they prayed.

Prayer and fasting to the christian is "work".
More things are wroght by prayer and fasting than bombs and bullets (parphrase mine).

Whereever in history state religion is promulagated eventually intolerance reigns. Be it a muslim state, a Jewish state, a christian state, someone will not conform and will be sanctioned.

The kingdom of God is not a state it is in the hearts of all men. Where we fail is because we like the prophet Elias believe in Pride that we are the only ones God have to do his will.

I find you are too emotionally attached to the abortion issue to tolerate any comment that allows for tolerance. "Abortion is Murder" very well said so is hate of abortion doctors or homosexuals or any other sinful person or group, like I said God's kingdom is in the heart and if we detest strongly in our hearts the intent is the same to God as murder.

The church of God is called to tolerance, for the humbling part of salvation is Romans 6 and 7 where "we" are described as "enemies" of God, While we were yet enemies of God, Christ died for us. Such were some of us murderers, fornicators, effeminate, abusers.....the truth is such are still some of us, but for the blood we are seen as forgiven and our sins are covered.

I don't know about Islam or Hindi, Or Confusions but I know the christian God ask us to forgive others trespasses as we would like our trespasses against him forgiven...

How can we debate, others of differing faith or no faith at all, we don't have to win every argurment THE BATTLE BELONGS TO THE LORD.

**Guest** · 03-06-2002, 12:06 AM

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

Accepted77

I find you are too emotionally attached to the abortion issue to tolerate any comment that allows for tolerance.

"Tolerance" for murder? I only ask that you and others like you, who do not want to speak out for the unborn, to allow those with the courage to speak out for God's most innocent creatures to do so without hindrance.

The fact is that you are not emotional enough about the destruction of innocent life. Whether or not you care to admit it, Christianity is about action. Read the scriptures unselectively and you would know that.

"Abortion is Murder" very well said so is hate of abortion doctors or homosexuals or any other sinful person or group,

Who said anything about hate or detesting anyone before your comment. That logical fallacy is called a "strawman argument."

The church of God is called to tolerance,

"Tolerance" my foot. Neither Christ, Peter or Paul were tolerant of evil.

How can we debate, others of differing faith or no faith at all, we don't have to win every argurment THE BATTLE BELONGS TO THE LORD.

I don't win any arguments. The Truth of Jesus Christ wins the argument.

Fair thee well.

**Wahalla** · 03-06-2002, 05:51 AM

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

Originally posted by Angelfire:
[QB]Wahalla weighs in:

And I am of the opinion that no-one can dictate what is right or wrong for another after the individual reaches the age of 16.

What a great idea! Let's do away with all laws both civil and religious. But since atheists don't have "silly" religions anyway they only need to do away with civil law. Forget about the chaos that would result. We can deal with that when the time comes.

QB]

Well now Angelfire I am surprised that you consider religion silly.. Strange coming from a beleiver. Even I an atheists am tolerant of other peoples belief system!

And note for claritiy I never mentioned doing away with the laws.. Merely that a 16 year old has the interlectual capacity to think!

**Guest** · 03-06-2002, 11:07 AM

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

Well now Angelfire I am surprised that you consider religion silly..

Hi Wahalla,

I actually used the word "silly" in my post to cynically reference another poster on this thread who wrote that ppl think religion is "silly, superstitious, medieval and anti intellectual." (I'm paraphrasing his comment) I personally don't think that way.

And note for claritiy I never mentioned doing away with the laws.. Merely that a 16 year old has the interlectual capacity to think!

I believe an 11 year old can "think," but that was not your point. You wrote, no-one can dictate what is right or wrong."

Would you be in favor of lowering the drinking age to 16? How about the laws against statutory rape? How about the age in which adolescents can join/be drafter into the armed services?

Do you talk to many 16 year olds? Don't answer that!!! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Stick around. We need a "good atheist" (potental Satanist) around Spirituality. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

**ohliz** · 03-06-2002, 03:38 PM

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

changed my mind...

**Dyoll** · 03-06-2002, 05:57 PM

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

Originally posted by ohliz:
I agree. They are separate. Who posted the bit about leaving a "mental space for religion"? I like that. Religion doesn't follow the same rules. If you want to prove to me that fire doesn't burn without oxygen, light a fire and put a jar over it and we'll see what happens. If you want to prove, or disprove the existence of God, well, good luck.

I have trouble understanding the creation/evolution in schools debate for this reason. The story of creation is a matter of religious faith, evolution is a matter of science. It is certainly not the only area where the two are not in agreement.

Let the scientists teach their truth in science class and the creationists teach their truth in Sunday School. Seems so simple to me.

If religion were provable by science, what would faith be for?

Nothing at all, except something to hold unto until the unexplainable becomes explainable. Your above comments are my sentiments exactly.

Oh, and if I remember correctly, it was I who made the comment about a "mental space" for faith. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

**Dyoll** · 03-06-2002, 07:20 PM

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

Originally posted by accepted77:
Whereever in history state religion is promulagated eventually intolerance reigns. Be it a muslim state, a Jewish state, a christian state, someone will not conform and will be sanctioned.

That's precisely what happens. But I don't think Angelfire, someone who (I consider) has militant tendencies, minds that scenario at all. 'Excessive' zeal must do considerable damage to the cause of Christianity considering that many Christians today are endeavoring to foster greater inter-faith dialogue. I agree with Benjamin Franklyn's famous dictum: "If religion needs the force of the state, then I fear, that religion is a weak one."

**Dyoll** · 03-06-2002, 07:27 PM

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Angelfire:
That logical fallacy is called a "strawman argument."[ QUOTE ]

Are you always that patronizing?

**ohliz** · 03-06-2002, 10:21 PM

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

'Excessive' zeal must do considerable damage to the cause of Christianity considering that many Christians today are endeavoring to foster greater inter-faith dialogue.

I often think there is a Satan. And I think Satan works ideally through people who use God and the Bible like a weapon, to oppress, to divide, to alienate. Intolerance - including the idea that one person or group or lifestyle is superior to another is what he's all about. Those ideas have led to the worst events of humanity - slavery, war, oppression, murder.

What amuses me is that the people who throw his name around the most are the ones he should thank for doing his work for him.

I agree with Benjamin Franklyn's famous dictum: "If religion needs the force of the state, then I fear, that religion is a weak one."

If you have to drag people to your beliefs kicking and screaming (or burning, as the case may be), I'd say there's definitely a problem, yes.

**Wahalla** · 03-07-2002, 10:39 AM

Re: Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

Originally posted by Angelfire:
[qb] Well now Angelfire I am surprised that you consider religion silly..

Hi Wahalla,

I actually used the word "silly" in my post to cynically reference another poster on this thread who wrote that ppl think religion is "silly, superstitious, medieval and anti intellectual." (I'm paraphrasing his comment) I personally don't think that way.

And note for claritiy I never mentioned doing away with the laws.. Merely that a 16 year old has the interlectual capacity to think!

I believe an 11 year old can "think," but that was not your point. You wrote, no-one can dictate what is right or wrong."

Would you be in favor of lowering the drinking age to 16? How about the laws against statutory rape? How about the age in which adolescents can join/be drafter into the armed services?

Do you talk to many 16 year olds? Don't answer that!!! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Stick around. We need a "good atheist" (potental Satanist) around Spirituality. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [/qb]

The age to join the army in the UK is 16....
Personally I think 16 year olds should vote as in Nicaragua.

Drinking demonstrates the nessesity for tolerance. It is socially acceptable / customary for young children in the northern mediterranian countries to have a sip of wine from their parents glass at meals or watered wine. Odd I recall having my first glass of watered wine when I was 4... And my first sip of wine a long time ago in Spain,a couple months before my fifth birthday..... But that is the custom. And until recently the influence of the perfidery Albion of binge drinking was frowned upon.

Note as a person who induges in both types of drinking the Med and the Nothern European. I actually support the de-machoing of alcohol. (before you ask, I do intend to introduce my child to wine in the manner that I was!)

I actual agree with the rightwingers who say you cannot legistlate morality.

Why are you being so tolerant anyway ?

Yep I have spoken to sixteen year olds and those that I know are quite sensible. ( Actually their parents think they should be shot !)

I reiterate tolerance has to be tempered with social justice. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Spiritual Tolerance and Diversity - One Christian's View

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

ads