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Throughout the bible slavery is practiced and there is nothing said againt it. So how come we make such a big fuss because we were slaves. Given that we go by God's word - the Bible?
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Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery
Perhaps because we are more truly moral than the authors of the Bible (Paul, for example, who returned a runaway slave to his 'owner').Originally posted by sukuna:
[qb]Throughout the bible slavery is practiced and there is nothing said againt it. So how come we make such a big fuss because we were slaves. Given that we go by God's word - the Bible?[/qb] -
Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery
Yes, but weren't those slaves from "conquered" nations?
I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong) that they went to a land and forced whole peoples into servitude [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]Comment
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Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery
I think it is the same thing. They did the same things. Conquered/Colonialized, raped, killed, force religion on them, destroy their gods, took of the spoil as a matter of fact the way that happened in the Bible is even worse than how our slavery krept in.Originally posted by Ms.Piggy.Sweet.Milk:
[qb]Yes, but weren't those slaves from "conquered" nations?
I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong) that they went to a land and forced whole peoples into servitude [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [/qb]Comment
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Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery
Interesting. If you take the Bible literally, there's an interesting situation in which slavery is OK, stealing is wrong (it, unlike, say, homosexuality was bad enough to make it to the top ten - the commandments) and so...Originally posted by Fledgist:
Perhaps because we are more truly moral than the authors of the Bible (Paul, for example, who returned a runaway slave to his 'owner').
Harriet Tubman is a sinner for "stealing" slaves from their masters?
There's a reason I take the Bible with a grain of salt...Comment
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Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery
huh!Originally posted by Ms.Piggy.Sweet.Milk:
[qb]Yes, but weren't those slaves from "conquered" nations?
I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong) that they went to a land and forced whole peoples into servitude [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [/qb]
[img]/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]
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Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery
mi kno weh ya guh wid dis yuh nuh [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]Originally posted by sukuna:
[qb]Throughout the bible slavery is practiced and there is nothing said againt it. So how come we make such a big fuss because we were slaves. Given that we go by God's word - the Bible?[/qb]Comment
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Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery
A slave is a slave. S/he has no freedom and no honour, and can only reclaim both by taking up arms for liberty. Interestingly, the Bible contains no condemnation of slavery, and several statements (http://mypage.uniserve.ca/~tfrisen/b...s/Slavery.html) command slaves to be obedient to their 'masters'. Frankly, black Christians (and Muslims) dishonour those of their ancestors who refused to accept the yoke tamely (as the Bible said they should).Originally posted by Ms.Piggy.Sweet.Milk:
[qb]Yes, but weren't those slaves from "conquered" nations?
I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong) that they went to a land and forced whole peoples into servitude [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [/qb]Comment
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Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery
Every slave who refused or resisted is a sinner. (http://mypage.uniserve.ca/~tfrisen/b...s/Slavery.html)Originally posted by NYer:
[qb]Interesting. If you take the Bible literally, there's an interesting situation in which slavery is OK, stealing is wrong (it, unlike, say, homosexuality was bad enough to make it to the top ten - the commandments) and so...Originally posted by Fledgist:
Perhaps because we are more truly moral than the authors of the Bible (Paul, for example, who returned a runaway slave to his 'owner').
Harriet Tubman is a sinner for "stealing" slaves from their masters?
There's a reason I take the Bible with a grain of salt...[/qb]Comment
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Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery
This interesting topic but I haven't yet seen anyone on the Bible-is-the-last-word side of things provide an answer for sukuna?
Some interesting quotes:
Quotations from the 19th century:
"[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America 1,2
"There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, we conclude, immoral." Rev. Alexander Campbell
"The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example." Rev. R. Furman, D.D., Baptist, of South Carolina
"The hope of civilization itself hangs on the defeat of Negro suffrage." A statement by a prominent 19th-century southern Presbyterian pastor, cited by Rev. Jack Rogers, moderator of the Presbyterian Church (USA).
"The doom of Ham has been branded on the form and features of his African descendants. The hand of fate has united his color and destiny. Man cannot separate what God hath joined." United States Senator James Henry Hammond. 5
Seems you're right sukuna, as far as the Bible is concerned, slavery is just fine, perhaps even the natural state of affairs.
It's mentioned too many times to count, almost, and it's never mentioned as being a sin or a bad thing, most of the references have to do with specific rules or instructions for the treatment of male or female slaves, Hebrew or non-Hebrew slaves, etc. Some, like the tenth commandment, refer to ownership of slaves and not coveting someone else's.
Wouldn't it be nice of God would come on down and tell us what S/He meant for people to do, instead of leaving humans - with all their faults - to interpret a few dozen books of stories written by yet more humans?Comment
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Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery
This is truly interesting. Good for you sukuna. Now we'll see who knows how to skate and stick-handle with a bible in hand. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]Comment
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Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery
fe real [img]/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]Originally posted by ReggaePlus:
[qb]This is truly interesting. Good for you sukuna. Now we'll see who knows how to skate and stick-handle with a bible in hand. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [/qb]Comment
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Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery
Why, why do you only focus on Africans only as slaves? Since we are speaking about whether the bible condoned slavery or not, how can you leave out the Israelites being slaves under the Pharoahs of Egypt??? Not fair!! Now which fallacy are you guilty of?? One sided-argument IF you ask me.
Slavery is/was wrong period!! Most of slavery mentioned as far as I remember occurred in the Old testament. Jesus, the Christ who came after, and is mentioned in the New Testament, came not only to fulfil many prophecies from the Old Testament, BUT also to clarify/purify the laws of old, hence slavery and anything wrong that would be condoned under old Testament law, would by his coming be abolished...that was one purpose of his coming.
The PROBLEM is, FAKE christians, unkind, wicked, unloving, wicked "so-called" christians who used the Bible to encourage and perpetrate slavery were just that, un-Christ-like, unchristian, wicked and evil...FAKE!!!Comment
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Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery
The Bible clearly says Israelites in slavery to Egypt was bad, but apparently not the enslavement of others (actually no one has shown up to refute that point yet but I'm assuming someone will).Originally posted by britisha:
Why, why do you only focus on Africans only as slaves? Since we are speaking about whether the bible condoned slavery or not, how can you leave out the Israelites being slaves under the Pharoahs of Egypt??? Not fair!! Now which fallacy are you guilty of?? One sided-argument IF you ask me.
There are several passages in the New Testament (but you are correct that most is in the Old) where slavery is mentioned, seems mostly to do with how to treat slaves (better), but not about freeing them or ending the practice.Slavery is/was wrong period!! Most of slavery mentioned as far as I remember occurred in the Old testament. Jesus, the Christ who came after, and is mentioned in the New Testament, came not only to fulfil many prophecies from the Old Testament, BUT also to clarify/purify the laws of old, hence slavery and anything wrong that would be condoned under old Testament law, would by his coming be abolished...that was one purpose of his coming.
(Matthew 18:25, Mark 14:66, Ephesians 6:5-9 - a favorite of slave owners as St. Paul instructs slaves to obey their masters "as unto Christ", Colossians 4:1, 1 Timothy 6:1-3, 1 Corinthians 12:13, Galatians 3:28, Colossians 3:11)
I agree completely. However, they felt they were justified in their beliefs by what is in the Bible. Frederick Douglass had some interesting things to say on this, not unlike what you just said:The PROBLEM is, FAKE christians, unkind, wicked, unloving, wicked "so-called" christians who used the Bible to encourage and perpetrate slavery were just that, un-Christ-like, unchristian, wicked and evil...FAKE!!!
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Frederick Douglass Distinguishes Between Slaveholding Religion and the Christianity of Christ
I FIND, since reading over the foregoing Narrative that I have, in several instances, spoken in such a tone and manner, respecting religion, as may possibly lead those unacquainted with my religious views to suppose me an opponent of all religion. To remove the liability of such misapprehension, I deem it proper to append the following brief explanation. What I have said respecting and against religion, I mean strictly to apply to the slaveholding religion of this land, and with no possible reference to Christianity proper; for, between the Christianity of this land, and the Christianity of Christ, I recognize the widest, possible difference--so wide, that to receive the one as good, pure, and holy, is of necessity to reject the other as bad, corrupt, and wicked. To be the friend of the one, is of necessity to be the enemy of the other. I love the pure, peaceable, and impartial Christianity of Christ: I therefore hate the corrupt, slaveholding, women-whipping, cradle-plundering, partial and hypocritical Christianity of this land. Indeed, I can see no reason, but the most deceitful one, for calling the religion of this land Christianity. I look upon it as the climax of all misnomers, the boldest of all frauds, and the grossest of all libels. Never was there a clearer case of "stealing the livery of the court of heaven to serve the devil in." I am filled with unutterable loathing when I contemplate the religious pomp and show, together with the horrible inconsistencies, which every where surround me. We have men-stealers for ministers, women-whippers for missionaries, and cradle-plunderers for church members. The man who wields the blood-clotted cow skin during the week fills the pulpit on Sunday, and claims to be a minister of the meek and lowly Jesus. The man who robs me of my earnings at the end of each week meets me as a class-leader on Sunday morning, to show me the way of life, and the path of salvation. He who sells my sister, for purposes of prostitution, stands forth as the pious advocate of purity. He who proclaims it a religious duty to read the Bible denies me the right of learning to read the name of the God who made me. He who is the religious advocate of marriage robs whole millions of its sacred influence, and leaves them to the ravages of wholesale pollution. The warm defender of the sacredness of the family relation is the same that scatters whole families,-- sundering husbands and wives, parents and children, sisters and brothers, leaving the hut vacant, and the hearth desolate. We see the thief preaching against theft, and the adulterer against adultery. We have men sold to build churches, women sold to support the gospel, and babes sold to purchase Bibles for the poor heathen! all for the glory of God and the good of souls! The slave auctioneer's bell and the church-going bell chime in with each other, and the bitter cries of the heart-broken slave are drowned in the religious shouts of his pious master. Revivals of religion and revivals in the slave-trade go hand in hand together. The slave prison and the church stand near each other. The clanking of fetters and the rattling of chains in the prison, and the pious psalm and solemn prayer in the church, may be heard at the same time. The dealers in the bodies and souls of men erect their stand in the presence of the pulpit, and they mutually help each other. The dealer gives his blood-stained gold to support the pulpit, and the pulpit, in return, covers his infernal business with the garb of Christianity. Here we have religion and robbery the allies of each other--devils dressed in angels' robes, and hell presenting the semblance of paradise.
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The Christianity of America is a Christianity, of whose votaries it may be as truly said, as it was of the ancient scribes and Pharisees, "They bind heavy burdens, and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. All their works they do for to be seen of men.-- They love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, . . . and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.--But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers; therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.--Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites ! for ye pay tithe of mint, and anise, and cumin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith; these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides! which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter; but within, they are full of extortion and excess.--Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity."
Dark and terrible as is this picture, I hold it to be strictly true of the overwhelming mass of professed Christians in America. They strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Could any thing be more true of our churches? They would be shocked at the proposition of fellowshipping a sheep-stealer ; and at the same time they hug to their communion a man-stealer, and brand me with being an infidel, if I find fault with them for it. They attend with Pharisaical strictness to the outward forms of religion, and at the same time neglect the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith. They are always ready to sacrifice, but seldom to show mercy. They are they who are represented as professing to love God whom they have not seen, whilst they hate their brother whom they have seen. They love the heathen on the other side of the globe. They can pray for him, pay money to have the Bible put into his hand, and missionaries to instruct him; while they despise and totally neglect the heathen at their own doors.
Such is, very briefly, my view of the religion of this land; and to avoid any misunderstanding, growing out of the use of general terms, I mean, by the religion of this land, that which is revealed in the words, deeds, and actions, of those bodies, north and south, calling themselves Christian churches, and yet in union with slaveholders. It is against religion, as presented by these bodies, that I have felt it my duty to testify.
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So far, no one has come into this topic to offer an interpretation that points to the Bible NOT condoning slavery.
[edited by NYer to remove the bold from Mr. Douglass' essay, too hard to read]Comment
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Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery
ASo? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] The New Testament handle slavery same as the old. Abraham is not fake, Lot is not fake, Moses not fake, Paul is definitely not fake.Originally posted by britisha:
[qb]Why, why do you only focus on Africans only as slaves? Since we are speaking about whether the bible condoned slavery or not, how can you leave out the Israelites being slaves under the Pharoahs of Egypt??? Not fair!! Now which fallacy are you guilty of?? One sided-argument IF you ask me.
Slavery is/was wrong period!! Most of slavery mentioned as far as I remember occurred in the Old testament. Jesus, the Christ who came after, and is mentioned in the New Testament, came not only to fulfil many prophecies from the Old Testament, BUT also to clarify/purify the laws of old, hence slavery and anything wrong that would be condoned under old Testament law, would by his coming be abolished...that was one purpose of his coming.
The PROBLEM is, FAKE christians, unkind, wicked, unloving, wicked "so-called" christians who used the Bible to encourage and perpetrate slavery were just that, un-Christ-like, unchristian, wicked and evil...FAKE!!![/qb]
Back to Abraham, Lot and Moses. Dem a Christian?Comment
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