Cloning: I'm beginning to side with the religionists

[Beluved]

Re: Cloning: I'm beginning to side with the religionists

I just had to comment even though a bit off the subject.. Just that rebel your statement grabbed me:

"As for doing something to a human embryo. In My view it is a collections of cells, not a sentient being. I think it is much more morally wrong to inject primates with aids for experiments, or grow ears on the backs of rodents, than to grow embryos for research, and medicine."

hmmmph…a human embryo..
<ul type="square">[*]An organism in its early stages of development, especially before it has reached a distinctively recognizable form[*]An organism at any time before full development, birth, or hatching[*]In humans, the prefetal product of conception from implantation through the eighth week of development.

[/list]
[img]/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] may not have fully developed senses but surly more than just a "collection of cells".

I apolgize if this seems inapporpriate or off the subject.. but I had to interject.

[servant]

Re: Cloning: I'm beginning to side with the religionists

["I think it is much more morally wrong to inject primates with aids for experiments, or grow ears on the backs of rodents, than to grow embryos for research, and medicine"]

Of course what is left unsaid here is that the human embryos harvested for "research and medicine" die in the process of this research.

So here we have the ultimate in moral relativism - killing a human embryo becomes a moral thing to do.

[rebelgirl]

Re: Cloning: I'm beginning to side with the religionists

Hi beluved and JM1 [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I figured that was going to get me in trouble. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] But it's true. the pictures you showed there beluved are much more advanced in development than the embryos they work with it therapeutic cloning. The news spot I watched yesterday talked about an development of 3 to 5 days, at such point they are only a collection of cells. No discernable features alluding to the creature the embryo will become.

JM1 as for a child with anencephaly it is not even the same thing. This is a child that has developed inutero and survived. A five day embryo is very different because is has not yet developed any characteristics that make it human. If created from cloned tissues the embryo is akin to a sampling of the original creatures stem cell tissues. No brain tissue, limb tissue, or organ tissue, has developed yet, just the beginning programmed stem cells.

Now to go completely off topic [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] I have a friend who's child was born without a brain, with only the brain stem, and critical parts of the brain required for basic organ function. I have to say
that the quality of life for this child is non existent. He is now approaching his twenties and can not move communicate eat on his own. His life simply consists of lying there occasionally moaning. I would never condone the use of a child like this for anything medical or other wise. However Is his life worth living, should he have been perhaps a terminated pregnancy. It's not my place to judge, but if I was in a situation where I was expecting a child with a similar problem. I would terminate the pregnancy. this child is not alive he is simply existing with no ability to affect his own life or any conscious knowledge he is alive.

Down to the basic point why do we condone the use of Animals which are sentient collections of cells that feel, and think, for use in medical, other experiments, and treatments. But draw the line at using non cognoscente cell masses (at 5 days development) for medicine?

Not to mention the fact that use of human cells (being that, that is what we are) is much more likely to produce treatments that will work on humans. Animal organs are not compatible with humans, and quite often treatments developed using animals do not work on people. Using human cells to grow organs, or develop medicine present the possibility of curing many diseases that have been thus far considered incurable.

Anyway I understand the position you are both coming from, and it leaves many moral question to be answered. But I don't consider human any better than animals so I think the hypocrisy in it being ok to do these things to other creatures but not ok to use human cells is kinda or despicable.

To end my post on a lighter note. fun fact did you know that human DNA is comprised of 90% viral material and that 80% of our cells are bacteria and microbes. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Fledgist]

Re: Cloning: I'm beginning to side with the religionists

Originally posted by servant:
[qb]["I think it is much more morally wrong to inject primates with aids for experiments, or grow ears on the backs of rodents, than to grow embryos for research, and medicine"]

Of course what is left unsaid here is that the human embryos harvested for "research and medicine" die in the process of this research.

So here we have the ultimate in moral relativism - killing a human embryo becomes a moral thing to do.[/qb]

Rubbish. What you're doing is attempting to claim that only your moral perspective constitutes morality.

[rebelgirl]

Re: Cloning: I'm beginning to side with the religionists

Originally posted by servant:
[qb]["I think it is much more morally wrong to inject primates with aids for experiments, or grow ears on the backs of rodents, than to grow embryos for research, and medicine"]

Of course what is left unsaid here is that the human embryos harvested for "research and medicine" die in the process of this research.

So here we have the ultimate in moral relativism - killing a human embryo becomes a moral thing to do.[/qb]

I think Fledge adiquitely responded to this.

But thousands of Animals are killed every year for research, and medical experiments. with your morality. Do you consider this morally right?

how bout the illegal harvesting of Organs from convicts and the poor through out the world this is also wrong no? And harvesting or organs and parts from the dead?

If a group of your own liver cells can be used in a 5 day embryo to grow you a new liver for transplant when you dying of liver cancer or Hepatitis. Is this not better than the possibility that somewhere, someone was killed to provide you with that liver?

The my morals, are better than your morals, is a tiring game.

[servant]

Re: Cloning: I'm beginning to side with the religionists

["Rubbish. What you're doing is attempting to claim that only your moral perspective constitutes morality."]

So why don't you share your moral perspective on the sacrifice of human embryos ?

["But thousands of Animals are killed every year for research, and medical experiments. with your morality. Do you consider this morally right?"]

Never lost even a second's sleep over the death of a frog, a hamster or a mouse.

["how bout the illegal harvesting of Organs from convicts and the poor through out the world this is also wrong no?"]

Urban legends.

["And harvesting or organs and parts from the dead"]

I have already given permission for this in my living will. My driver's license also identifies me as an organ donor. How about you ?

[NYer]

Re: Cloning: I'm beginning to side with the religionists

Of course what is left unsaid here is that the human embryos harvested for "research and medicine" die in the process of this research.

So here we have the ultimate in moral relativism - killing a human embryo becomes a moral thing to do.

MY point was, if it's deemed OK to discard excess embryos in the process of in vitro fertilization - and it must be because the no one, least of all our pro-life president and the religious right in the US not only don't object but support this - then using same for medical research ought to be OK too.

If however you feel that embryos should never be discarded or harmed, then it's time to picket those fertility clinics.

How can it be OK to discard embryos so (wealthy or well-insured) people with reproductive problems can have biological children but not so that crippling and/or fatal diseases may be cured?

I personally feel the main difference between people who think it's OK to terminate a pregnancy and people who feel the same is murder is really just a disagreement on timing (as I know no one on either side who thinks it's OK to kill a baby). I refer to the time when the sperm, egg, zygote, embryo, wherever you draw the line, becomes human and thus has the same rights as born people.

But THAT would be a whole new topic.

[NYer]

Re: Cloning: I'm beginning to side with the religionists

["how bout the illegal harvesting of Organs from convicts and the poor through out the world this is also wrong no?"]

Urban legends.

I wish.

The poor are certainly selling their organs for very little money and in some cases having organs removed against their will, and those organs are going to the wealthy - that's no urban legend, it's a fact, at least in India and Brazil and, one supposes, elsewhere as well.

See http://www.vachss.com/help_text/organ_trafficking.html

and

http://www2.gol.com/users/bobkeim/orgsale.html

and

http://www.vachss.com/help_text/archive/body_parts.html

...got more if you still need convincing.

[servant]

Re: Cloning: I'm beginning to side with the religionists

http://www.urbanlegends.com/medical/organ.theft/organ_theft_unos.html

["...got more if you still need convincing."]

Me too.

[RollinCalf]

Re: Cloning: I'm beginning to side with the religionists

What the hell has happened to my thread ? Cho !

[NYer]

Re: Cloning: I'm beginning to side with the religionists

Originally posted by servant:
[qb] http://www.urbanlegends.com/medical/...heft_unos.html

["...got more if you still need convincing."]

Me too.[/qb]

From the site you linked: "Every transplant center in the United States is actively involved in the UNOS Scientific Registry on Organ Transplantation. The Scientific Registry is a collection of data concerning all solid organ transplants taking place in the United States since October 1, 1987."

Now did I say United States?? The entire page you cited deals with the US ONLY.

Got something similar for India, Brazil??

[NYer]

Re: Cloning: I'm beginning to side with the religionists

..and I will add that in China, organs are taken from convicts sentenced to death and sold, without their permission as well.

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0118/baard.php

http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,409218,00.html

[RollinCalf]

Re: Cloning: I'm beginning to side with the religionists

NYer, Here is a quote from servant's link:

"International exchange or organs for transplantation is technically feasible but remains an uncommon procedure. Only after prior approval by UNOS may UN0S members enter into formal organ exchange arrangements with a foreign transplant program. All organ exchanges which take place under approved protocols must be promptly reported to the UNOS Organ Center. All imported organs are allocated according to UNOS policies. Under UNOS policy, importation of an organ for human transplantation in the United States is appropriate only if the foreign source is a UNOS recognized source. A UNOS recognized source is an organ transplant center or organ procurement program specifically authorized as a transplant center or organ procurement program by an appropriate agency of its national government. lf a UNOS member is contacted by a foreign source with an organ offer, that member must notify the UNOS Organ Center of that offer. Additionally, UNOS policy stipulates that no UNOS member will engage in practices which might discredit the transplant community. Organs accepted for importation must be from cadaveric donors and must have been voluntarily donated. Organs from living donors or for which compensation has been given are not acceptable for exchange by UNOS members.

Since the establishment of the UNOS Scientific Registry on Organ Transplantation on October 1, 1987,, UNOS has maintained scrupulous medical records on organ donors and transplant recipients. According to UNOS records, there has been no documentation of any Latin American children becoming donors in the United States. These records are released to the U.S. government annually and subjected to both government and public scrutiny."

The point also is that the harvesting, transportation and transplantation of human organs requires a high degree of technical sophistication, both in terms of manpower and infrastructure to be successful. Yuh cyaan juss walk up to a man with a butcher knife an haul out his kidneys and hope to do anything with them. And you are referring us to countries where in many instances their citizens have to wait days for relatively low tech medical care.

That is why I have to take servant's side here. Some of these stories sound just a little too odd to be true.

[NYer]

Re: Cloning: I'm beginning to side with the religionists

Originally posted by RollinCalf:
[QB]NYer, Here is a quote from servant's link:

"International exchange or organs for transplantation is technically feasible but remains an uncommon procedure.

Uncommon. Wouldn't you say that means that you can't dismiss the entire concept with a sweeping statement referring to all harvesting of organs either in the case of convicts or by force as "urban legend"? And they do not address intra-national exchange of organs as we know occurs in India with the consent of the donor/seller.

I never maintained it was a widespread practice or that white trucks are driving around barrios stealing babies, only that it does occcur And the question of harvesting from convicts, mentioned in the first post servant responded to, remains unaddressed by either of you except again servant's "urban legend" dismissal.

The rest of this quote is again dealing with the US so I snipped it.

Only after prior approval by UNOS may UN0S members enter into formal organ exchange arrangements with a foreign transplant program....(snip)

The point also is that the harvesting, transportation and transplantation of human organs requires a high degree of technical sophistication, both in terms of manpower and infrastructure to be successful. Yuh cyaan juss walk up to a man with a butcher knife an haul out his kidneys and hope to do anything with them. And you are referring us to countries where in many instances their citizens have to wait days for relatively low tech medical care.

Agreed - yet organ transplants take place in such countries quite frequently so obviously the infrastructure and expertise IS there.

That is why I have to take servant's side here. Some of these stories sound just a little too odd to be true.

I won't take it personally [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I do stand by my statement that all harvesting against one's will is not "urban legend". China's practice re: executed criminals seems sufficient to refute that whether you believe anyone else has ever had an organ removed without their consent or not.

[Fledgist]

Re: Cloning: I'm beginning to side with the religionists

Originally posted by servant:
[qb]["Rubbish. What you're doing is attempting to claim that only your moral perspective constitutes morality."]

So why don't you share your moral perspective on the sacrifice of human embryos ?

{Fledgist: I am opposed to all sacrifices to deities. If you mean the use of human embryonic material, I'd like to point out two things:

(1) lots of this is available from fertility clinics, that would otherwise be discarded.

(2) over 20 percent of pregnancies end in natural abortions (miscarriages). In some cases this is the result of actions (intentional or otherwise) of the pregnant woman. Should all miscarriages be investigated to determine whether they are murders?}

["But thousands of Animals are killed every year for research, and medical experiments. with your morality. Do you consider this morally right?"]

Never lost even a second's sleep over the death of a frog, a hamster or a mouse.

{Fledgist: Why not? They too are living beings, are they not entitled to their lives?}

["how bout the illegal harvesting of Organs from convicts and the poor through out the world this is also wrong no?"]

Urban legends.

{Fledgist: This has been dealt with.}

["And harvesting or organs and parts from the dead"]

I have already given permission for this in my living will. My driver's license also identifies me as an organ donor. How about you ?[/qb]

I pity the person who gets your heart.