and Obeah?

[rebelgirl]

Re: and Obeah?

Originally posted by neutral:
[qb]

Originally posted by sukuna:
[qb]fledgist, what is the difference between myal and obeah?[/qb]

sukuni ..you are far too obsessed with obeah,and the occult,...I am sure there are far more positive things in life to concern one`s self about......life is but one chance,its not a rehearshal,people born and die without even knowing if there was a reason for their existence,they take their existence for granted by filling it with negative things.......its reported that there is a comet heading for the earth,it should reach us by the year 2019,if it hits as predicted then all life forms should be obliterated for another 500 years or so until the planet replinshes itself...I for one welcomes this comet as it means that it can purge this planet.maybe if it does happens then there will be sufficient history left to remind the next inhabitants of earth to respect the planet and others within it and also purge their souls of evil thoughts towards each other.[/qb]

Just curious why you consider Obeah negative? Do you apply this to all belief systems or just Obeah in particular?

That's one thing I find continually confusing why people consider traditional magik practices negative, and other forms of spiritualism positive.

What's the difference between someone using Obeah to even a score, and some telling you your going to hell for being a sinner? Or that God will punish you. Or believing AIDs is Gods punishment for gays. the first is hopeful speculation of negative consequences for action. I don't see it as being any better.

besides what I understand for what Dada and sukuna have posted Obeah is far more about concentrating on the positive, that using magik for negative purposes. Not saying it doesn't happen. but like Wicca and other earth based religions it's about connection to the spirits, the earth, the elements, and how to use positive energy to help others, and yourself. at least that is what I have taken in.

As for the comet well let it come if it is meant to be. But if Humans survive then there will always be evil thoughts towards each other prejudice and hatred seems to be a fundamental trait of humanity. Perhaps a misguided survival instinct and no comet will change that.

[rebelgirl]

Re: and Obeah?

{Fledgist: It could. What makes sorcery different from prayer, though, is that the sorcerer believes that s/he can influence the outcomes of events through the manipulation of natural and supernatural forces which will be subject to his/her will.}

How is this different from a person that prays to god for prosperity or to heal a sick relative, those people also believe that their will be supernatural intervention. and they believe that their faith and prayer can cause this to happen. so indeed they are trying to manipulate events and change outcomes.

Do you consider all forms of sorcery to be lacking spirituality. Tibetan Buddhist monk perform types of sorcery. So did the druids, Gnostic, Wicca etc. as well as the natives. but it's reliant on communication with spirits as well and manipulation of energy. I would define any practice that involves spirits and energy manipulation spiritual in nature myself.

Belief in the supernatural is a form of spirituality. be it good or bad. at least that is how I see it.

It fits the definition of both spiritual and spiritualism:

from Merriam Webster's collegiate dictionary

spir·i·tu·al
Pronunciation: 'spir-i-ch&-w&l, -i-ch&l, -ich-w&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French & Late Latin; Middle French spirituel, from Late Latin spiritualis, from Latin, of breathing, of wind, from spiritus
Date: 14th century
1 : of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit : INCORPOREAL <man's spiritual needs>
2 a : of or relating to sacred matters <spiritual songs> b : ecclesiastical rather than lay or temporal <spiritual authority> <lords spiritual>
3 : concerned with religious values
4 : related or joined in spirit <our spiritual home> <his spiritual heir>
5 a : of or relating to supernatural beings or phenomena b : of, relating to, or involving spiritualism.

spiritualism :spir·i·tu·al·ism
Pronunciation: 'spir-i-ch&-w&-"li-z&m, -i-ch&-"li-, -ich-w&-"li-
Function: noun
Date: 1796
1 : the view that spirit is a prime element of reality
2 a : a belief that spirits of the dead communicate with the living usually through a medium.

from my desktop version:

Spiritualism:
a belief that the dead survive as spirits and can communicate with the living.

This is also part of Obeah is it not?

[rufian]

Re: and Obeah?

Originally posted by neutral:
[qb]

Originally posted by sukuna:
[qb]fledgist, what is the difference between myal and obeah?[/qb]

sukuni ..you are far too obsessed with obeah,and the occult,...I am sure there are far more positive things in life to concern one`s self about......life is but one chance,its not a rehearshal,people born and die without even knowing if there was a reason for their existence,they take their existence for granted by filling it with negative things.......its reported that there is a comet heading for the earth,it should reach us by the year 2019,if it hits as predicted then all life forms should be obliterated for another 500 years or so until the planet replinshes itself...I for one welcomes this comet as it means that it can purge this planet.maybe if it does happens then there will be sufficient history left to remind the next inhabitants of earth to respect the planet and others within it and also purge their souls of evil thoughts towards each other.[/qb]

I am obssessed with nature. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Many assume Obeah is all negative. Me bush knowledge negative? That is birthright which I am damn proud of. Whatever.

Obeah works with the extreem opposite of an instance to achieve balance. In which case that instance is always considered the negative. Havoc reap when it is used for the personal gain of the worker. Obeah requires a dedication to and knowledge of the society.

[rufian]

Re: and Obeah?

fledgist again, what is the difference between obeah and myal?
Come with it, let me see some contradictions [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Fledgist]

Re: and Obeah?

Not really. The whole point of obeah is the manipulation of natural/supernatural forces to achieve a given end.

[rufian]

Re: and Obeah?

[/QUOTE]Not really. The whole point of obeah is the manipulation of natural/supernatural forces to achieve a given end.[/qb][/QUOTE]If you are saying not really to this definition, then you are wrong:
Spiritualism:
a belief that the dead survive as spirits and can communicate with the living.

The whole point of obeah is the manipulation of natural/supernatural forces to achieve a given end as you say. The Spirit everything in obeah, the spirit for guidance, for everything. As a matter of fact, the mind - the spirit is what gets manipulated.

the supernatural force is the supreme being, being the Spirit.

Fledgist come again [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[Fledgist]

Re: and Obeah?

[/QUOTE]If you are saying not really to this definition, then you are wrong:
Spiritualism:
a belief that the dead survive as spirits and can communicate with the living.

The whole point of obeah is the manipulation of natural/supernatural forces to achieve a given end as you say. The Spirit everything in obeah, the spirit for guidance, for everything. As a matter of fact, the mind - the spirit is what gets manipulated.

the supernatural force is the supreme being, being the Spirit.

Fledgist come again [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [/qb][/QUOTE]Belief in the revenant dead is not central to obeah, although duppies can be manipulated and compelled.

What I think you're doing is fuzzing the boundary between obeah and Afro-syncretic religions like Convince, Poco, Kumina and so on. The African cultures from which they derive, however, as far as I know make a clear distinction between the priest (who intercedes with the gods, and may have knowledge of many things) and the sorcerer (who seeks to alter outcomes by the manipulation of forces using sympathetic/analogic magic, drugs, poisons, and good, old-fashioned trickery.

I once had the opportunity to witness an apotropaic ritual -- involving the sacrifice of a goat and aspersion with the blood of said caprine -- to forestall any mechanical problems with a new car. The celebrant of the ritual would have been angered had anyone suggested that this was obeah -- since the purpose was to invoke divine protection, not compel some spirit or revenant. I'd say, in fact, that what I saw was Myal.

[rufian]

Re: and Obeah?

Originally posted by Fledgist:

[qb]Belief in the revenant dead is not central to obeah, although duppies can be manipulated and compelled.[/qb]

I never said that the dead is central to Obeah, but the spiritualism - that was the original statement.
Fledgist, it is the spirit all the way. When an Obeahman/Myalman manipulates the body, he opens the channel to the spirit. The spirit will then be destroyed - good or bad.

[qb]
What I think you're doing is fuzzing the boundary between obeah and Afro-syncretic religions like Convince, Poco, Kumina and so on. The African cultures from which they derive, however, as far as I know make a clear distinction between the priest (who intercedes with the gods, and may have knowledge of many things) and the sorcerer (who seeks to alter outcomes by the manipulation of forces using sympathetic/analogic magic, drugs, poisons, and good, old-fashioned trickery.
[/qb]

Think again when you are talking about boundaries man. Because the spirit is the Supreme Being does not means that it is a religion that I am talking about. The spirit is the creator of things, the spirit is the cause and the source. It is the spirit which is responsible for the manipulation and is the source of power. Here again it is the spirit which gets manipulated.

Where I come from there is no Convince, Pokumina or Kumina. There is Voodoo and Obeah [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

All the Obeah neighbours and derivative are by-products of the cultural evolution from one source - the Supreme Being. When Obeahman cetch shadow or set jumbi behind a you, what is he doing? Obeahman see spirit, talk to them and cetch them. Or should he call the Myal man to do it?

Yes, you are right about there is a division of labour, the Obeahman cut and the Myalman cure, both have one and the same communicator - the spirit. Either must know what each other can do or did. However, the Obeahman is more powerful because he uses every register to get the job done(including all kinds of religions). Not that the Myal man wouldn't do what Obeahman do, he gets it done by someone else - another Obeahman. Both dabble in good and bad.

[qb]
I once had the opportunity to witness an apotropaic ritual -- involving the sacrifice of a goat and aspersion with the blood of said caprine -- to forestall any mechanical problems with a new car. The celebrant of the ritual would have been angered had anyone suggested that this was obeah -- since the purpose was to invoke divine protection, not compel some spirit or revenant. I'd say, in fact, that what I saw was Myal.
[/qb]

So? Ana spirit you till a talk bout? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[Fledgist]

Re: and Obeah?

Originally posted by sukuna:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:

[qb]Belief in the revenant dead is not central to obeah, although duppies can be manipulated and compelled.[/qb]

I never said that the dead is central to Obeah, but the spiritualism - that was the original statement.
Fledgist, it is the spirit all the way. When an Obeahman/Myalman manipulates the body, he opens the channel to the spirit. The spirit will then be destroyed - good or bad.

{Fledgist: This depends, I would imagine, on the intent of the sorcerer and the person consulting him/her. After all, Melba, in Sparrow's calypso, didn't want to destroy Sparrow.

In many, perhaps most, cases obeah is used to control human beings, their acts, and the outcomes of those acts. I don't think that spirits -- other than Appleton -- are involved.}

[qb]
What I think you're doing is fuzzing the boundary between obeah and Afro-syncretic religions like Convince, Poco, Kumina and so on. The African cultures from which they derive, however, as far as I know make a clear distinction between the priest (who intercedes with the gods, and may have knowledge of many things) and the sorcerer (who seeks to alter outcomes by the manipulation of forces using sympathetic/analogic magic, drugs, poisons, and good, old-fashioned trickery.
[/qb]

Think again when you are talking about boundaries man. Because the spirit is the Supreme Being does not means that it is a religion that I am talking about. The spirit is the creator of things, the spirit is the cause and the source. It is the spirit which is responsible for the manipulation and is the source of power. Here again it is the spirit which gets manipulated.

{Fledgist: This is a bit confusing. How does one manipulate a supreme being? Cos if that's possible, it isn't supreme.}

Where I come from there is no Convince, Pokumina or Kumina. There is Voodoo and Obeah [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

{Fledgist: Bwai, an mi nuh menshan Etu ar Myal.}

All the Obeah neighbours and derivative are by-products of the cultural evolution from one source - the Supreme Being. When Obeahman cetch shadow or set jumbi behind a you, what is he doing? Obeahman see spirit, talk to them and cetch them. Or should he call the Myal man to do it?

Yes, you are right about there is a division of labour, the Obeahman cut and the Myalman cure, both have one and the same communicator - the spirit. Either must know what each other can do or did. However, the Obeahman is more powerful because he uses every register to get the job done(including all kinds of religions). Not that the Myal man wouldn't do what Obeahman do, he gets it done by someone else - another Obeahman. Both dabble in good and bad.

{Fledgist: I don't think things are as clearcut as that.}

[qb]
I once had the opportunity to witness an apotropaic ritual -- involving the sacrifice of a goat and aspersion with the blood of said caprine -- to forestall any mechanical problems with a new car. The celebrant of the ritual would have been angered had anyone suggested that this was obeah -- since the purpose was to invoke divine protection, not compel some spirit or revenant. I'd say, in fact, that what I saw was Myal.
[/qb]

So? Ana spirit you till a talk bout? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [/qb]

Try rereading it.

[rufian]

Re: and Obeah?

fledgist you to reread again. I think your misunderstanding me because of the definition of spirit - the meanings of which I have intentionally exploited. Reread again please. Good is Bad, Bad is Good, Obeahman & Myalman same. Not everything have category for it seems as if some people can't categorize, they can't comprehend.

Fledgist, where does the Obeahman get his powers?
Where does the Myalman gets his powers? What is the Supreme Being? What is a dupy/jumbi? How you cetch him? Who do the Obeah deeds?

[Fledgist]

Re: and Obeah?

Originally posted by sukuna:
[qb]fledgist you to reread again. I think your misunderstanding me because of the definition of spirit - the meanings of which I have intentionally exploited. Reread again please. Good is Bad, Bad is Good, Obeahman & Myalman same. Not everything have category for it seems as if some people can't categorize, they can't comprehend.

{Fledgist: I'm sorry that I appear so stupid to you, perhaps you could enlighten me.}

Fledgist, where does the Obeahman get his powers?
Where does the Myalman gets his powers? What is the Supreme Being? What is a dupy/jumbi? How you cetch him? Who do the Obeah deeds?[/qb]

I have yet to encounter anyone with actual supernatural powers. The obeahman/woman gets power from the belief people have in him/her. I'd presume the same about a myalman/woman (except that I'd call the former a sorcerer, and the latter a priest).

Duppy (and jumbie in the Eastern Caribbean) is a term applied to the supposedly revenant dead.

The supreme being is a fiction. And for the rest, belief kill and belief cure.

[rufian]

Re: and Obeah?

:longbidtroopes: for fledgie.

Me sorry that you are so ignorant about it meself.
Neither Obeahman/Myalman get powers from peoples belief only if they are magicians. An Obeah man it no sorcerer either. Thought it was not clear cut. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
The Supreme Being is as real as God [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

So if I help a woman to through away a child, it is her belief which killed the unborn?

[oren cousins]

Re: and Obeah?

posted July 24, 2002 02:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
originally posted by Sukuna:
Answer me please:

Do you believe in Obeah?
__________________________________________________

To believe or not to believe in obeah begs the question. The truth is obeah by any other name and with differing rituals and practices in all regions of the world, is a dominant and srongly sureptitious and mystical factor of every culture. Obeah touches the life of everyone, at least culturally and historically. No anthropologist worth his salt can ignore it or omit it from his studies of societies. In any case, belief or unbelief in obeah,as in religious persausion, is a very intimate disposition of an individual's mind, though it may be induced by factors such as heritage, social interaction, intuition, insight and fear.
Auto-suggestion, wherein one convinces oneself that a person claiming power to command spirits can use supernatural powers to hurt or to help , is a very effective obeah force. There are numerous physical effects or rather psycho-physical devices that can be used to make obeah effective eg. the sight of a frog with a lock on its mouth make witnesses speechless or confused in a law court.... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
________________________________________________

Tale of 'Crows on The Roof'.

A Jamaican desirous of getting rid of a nauseous neighbour who was also his tenant, threatened to pay an obeahman to kill him, if he didn't leave. He secretly put a closed perforated can containing rotting pork in the thatched roof of the said obnoxious neighbour. A flock of Johncrows went wild 'circling and pitching' on the roof, The obnoxious neighbour hurriedly departed 'lock, stock and barrel'.... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] .

___-----------------------------------------------
A brilliant friend of mine, in my boyhood, was given a witch' bath by an obeahwoman on the eve of sitting an examination to protect him against the evil spirits that would cause him to fail. (My village had a history of no one ever passing examinations). My parents,when invited to do the same, refused. We both passed the examination with flying colours, thus breaking the old curse. . Problem...it was news that I (mi poor bwoy, noh know nutt'n 'bout dat) passed because I had gotten a witch bath..... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

__________________________________________________ __
CASE OF THE BOILED BLACK PUSS
A woman in a remote part of Jamaica complained to the district constable that two men had stolen her black cat to 'work' obeah. He decided to investigate. While in hiding, in the night, he observed two nude men sitting on their haunches, opposite each other. They had a pot on a fire, which emitted pungent smells and an open Bible. Each man, in turn, selected a bone from the pot, read a passage from the Bible and bit the bone, With the bone between his teeth. he asked the other,"Y'u see me?"
"Yes, me see yuh!" replied the other.
The constable, after a short while, deduced that they were trying to acquire the power of "The Invisible Man". Out he leapt from hiding and shouted, "Yes, mi see unno!"
__________________________________________________ _
In colonial days, in the British West Indies, the practice of obeah was a criminal act under the vagrancy law, and obeahmen used to be whipped and imprisoned. The law is still on the statute books, though the police do not harass the obeah man these days.

[Fledgist]

Re: and Obeah?

Originally posted by sukuna:
[qb]:longbidtroopes: for fledgie.

Me sorry that you are so ignorant about it meself.

{[i]Fledgist: But you don't want to provide enlightenment.

Neither Obeahman/Myalman get powers from peoples belief only if they are magicians. An Obeah man it no sorcerer either. Thought it was not clear cut. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

{Fledgist: Wrong.}

The Supreme Being is as real as God [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

So if I help a woman to through away a child, it is her belief which killed the unborn?[/qb]

No, but the abortifacient you supply her with may have something to do with the matter.