How do you understand what you cannot see?

[Fledgist]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

Originally posted by JM1:
[qb]"But, it seems to me, that neither the Klan Kludd, nor the Identity site are particularly dissimilar to most Protestant Christianity"

So you find their racist views compatible with the doctrines and creeds of Protestant Christianity then.[/qb]

Frankly, yes. That isn't to say that other views aren't also compatible, merely to say that they use Christianity as a means of justifying their racism.

[JM1]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

["Frankly, yes"]

How so.

[Fledgist]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

Originally posted by JM1:
[qb]["Frankly, yes"]

How so.[/qb]

For example: "If God brings you to it-He will bring you through it.
Lord I love You and I need You, come into my heart, Today.
For without you I can do nothing."

[Rev James]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

wait!!! flegist pray???? a whey the jumping cat mangouse foot, bread fruit head, a whey the ???????????????????????????????????? a whay mi a hear, I feel like beat mi head on a wall, I am getting mad. ahahahahahahaha

[Fledgist]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

Originally posted by Rev James:
[qb]wait!!! flegist pray???? a whey the jumping cat mangouse foot, bread fruit head, a whey the ???????????????????????????????????? a whay mi a hear, I feel like beat mi head on a wall, I am getting mad. ahahahahahahaha[/qb]

I suggest that you take a remedial reading class -- especially one that explains the function of quotation marks.

[JM1]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

The connection between your quote and how it is that "you (found)their racist views compatible with the doctrines and creeds of Protestant Christianity" escapes me.

Please explain.

[Fledgist]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

Originally posted by JM1:
[qb]The connection between your quote and how it is that "you (found)their racist views compatible with the doctrines and creeds of Protestant Christianity" escapes me.

Please explain.[/qb]

You mean you don't find the quotation particularly representative of Protestantism?

[JM1]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

I was interested in why it is, you felt that the racist views of the KKK reflect the creeds and doctines of Protestant Christianity. Remember I asked if you felt that they did and your reply was "Frankly yes".

What I was hoping for was some explanation of how you came to that conclusion.

I am just not sure how your quote adresses that.

[Fledgist]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

Originally posted by JM1:
[qb]I was interested in why it is, you felt that the racist views of the KKK reflect the creeds and doctines of Protestant Christianity. Remember I asked if you felt that they did and your reply was "Frankly yes".

What I was hoping for was some explanation of how you came to that conclusion.

I am just not sure how your quote adresses that.[/qb]

You are being disingenuous -- after all, you've called my expression of opinion 'spewing bile' in the recent past. Either that quotation exemplifies Protestant Christian beliefs, or it doesn't. I'm curious to see how you respond.

Regarding my conclusion, you might want to consider why groups like the Klan and Identity Christianity flourish within Protestantism, as opposed to other branches of Christianity. The emphasis on the elect of Calvinism, for example, is highly compatible with beliefs that certain people are chosen (or truly human), and others are not.

[JM1]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

" Either that quotation exemplifies Protestant Christian beliefs, or it doesn't."

I specifically made reference to Protestant creeds and doctrines. Which of these does your quote "exemplify" ?

" The emphasis on the elect of Calvinism, for example, is highly compatible with beliefs that certain people are chosen (or truly human), and others are not."

This is a fair comment. However, not being a five point Calvinist myself, I have never argued for limited atonement and neither is there general agreement amongst Protestants on this matter.

Nevertheless, how does the Protestant Church bear responsibility for whoever chooses to attribute to themselves, any of it's beliefs ? Or for that matter, what they choose to add to it ?

[Fledgist]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

Originally posted by JM1:
[qb]" Either that quotation exemplifies Protestant Christian beliefs, or it doesn't."

I specifically made reference to Protestant creeds and doctrines. Which of these does your quote "exemplify" ?

{Fledgist: You mean beyond individual responsibility for 'salvation'?}

" The emphasis on the elect of Calvinism, for example, is highly compatible with beliefs that certain people are chosen (or truly human), and others are not."

This is a fair comment. However, not being a five point Calvinist myself, I have never argued for limited atonement and neither is there general agreement amongst Protestants on this matter.

Nevertheless, how does the Protestant Church bear responsibility for whoever chooses to attribute to themselves, any of it's beliefs ? Or for that matter, what they choose to add to it ?[/qb]

By their complicity in a long history of injustices, by their silence in the face of such groups as Identity Christians

[JM1]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

Fledgist: ”If God brings you to it-He will bring you through it. Lord I love You and I need You, come into my heart, Today. For without you I can do nothing."

JM1: "I specifically made reference to Protestant creeds and doctrines. Which of these does your quote (above) "exemplify"?

Fledgist:” You mean beyond individual responsibility for 'salvation'?”

The above quote is a rather generic statement and is neither distinctly Protestant nor representative of any of its doctrines or creeds of which I am aware.

As far as “individual responsibility for 'salvation' ” goes (and here I will have to guess at what you mean so please correct me if I am wrong), I am going to assume that you are referring to the concept of Justification.

It turns out that one of the very doctrines at issue during the Reformation was whether there was anything we could do to gain our own salvation. Protestants, as you may be aware, believe this to be an undeserved gift, while Rome, despite doing away with indulgences, continues to at least imply, that our “works” or lack of them, may be determinative in this regard. So bearing “individual responsibility for 'salvation' ” has more of a Roman flavor to it, if anything.

At any rate, to assume that the KKK would be familiar with the finer points of ‘Justification’, is, to say the least, a stretch.

JM1: “Nevertheless, how does the Protestant Church bear responsibility for whoever chooses to attribute to themselves, any of it's beliefs ? Or for that matter, what they choose to add to it ?”

Fledgist: “By their complicity in a long history of injustices, by their silence in the face of such groups as Identity Christians”

A legitimate criticism may be made of the Protestant Church on a corporate level for their silence as a group during periods such as slavery and the civil rights era in the United States. And Rome does not get a pass for its own actions during the era of the Third Reich either.

Nevertheless, one must be careful in painting with such a broad brush. Protestantism, as you are aware, has no equivalent of the Roman Catholic Magisterium and so it is not possible for anyone to speak for them as a group. Despite this, all major denominations, as well as their individual members, have at one time or another spoken out against extremist groups that are defined by their views on race.

Also, given their numbers, paranoia, preoccupation with secrecy, as well as the speed with which some appear then reinvent themselves, one could also envision this becoming such a major source of activity for any individual church that their primary mission could easily become derailed by this activity and they would end up having their agenda set by these groups.

[Fledgist]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

Originally posted by JM1:
[qb]Fledgist: ”If God brings you to it-He will bring you through it. Lord I love You and I need You, come into my heart, Today. For without you I can do nothing."

JM1: "I specifically made reference to Protestant creeds and doctrines. Which of these does your quote (above) "exemplify"?

Fledgist:” You mean beyond individual responsibility for 'salvation'?”

The above quote is a rather generic statement and is neither distinctly Protestant nor representative of any of its doctrines or creeds of which I am aware.

As far as “individual responsibility for 'salvation' ” goes (and here I will have to guess at what you mean so please correct me if I am wrong), I am going to assume that you are referring to the concept of Justification.

{Fledgist: Pardon me for erring in the use of a technical term of theology. Justification by Faith it is.}

It turns out that one of the very doctrines at issue during the Reformation was whether there was anything we could do to gain our own salvation. Protestants, as you may be aware, believe this to be an undeserved gift, while Rome, despite doing away with indulgences, continues to at least imply, that our “works” or lack of them, may be determinative in this regard. So bearing “individual responsibility for 'salvation' ” has more of a Roman flavor to it, if anything.

At any rate, to assume that the KKK would be familiar with the finer points of ‘Justification’, is, to say the least, a stretch.

{Fledgist: Why? The history of the KKK indicates that Protestant Christianity, in many varieties, has played a central role in the movement -- its historic anti-Catholicism is one part of that.}

JM1: “Nevertheless, how does the Protestant Church bear responsibility for whoever chooses to attribute to themselves, any of it's beliefs ? Or for that matter, what they choose to add to it ?”

Fledgist: “By their complicity in a long history of injustices, by their silence in the face of such groups as Identity Christians”

A legitimate criticism may be made of the Protestant Church on a corporate level for their silence as a group during periods such as slavery and the civil rights era in the United States. And Rome does not get a pass for its own actions during the era of the Third Reich either.

Nevertheless, one must be careful in painting with such a broad brush. Protestantism, as you are aware, has no equivalent of the Roman Catholic Magisterium and so it is not possible for anyone to speak for them as a group. Despite this, all major denominations, as well as their individual members, have at one time or another spoken out against extremist groups that are defined by their views on race.

{Fledgist: Or supported them. But the absence of a formal Magisterium doe not mean that Protestant churches take no responsibility for their teachings.}

Also, given their numbers, paranoia, preoccupation with secrecy, as well as the speed with which some appear then reinvent themselves, one could also envision this becoming such a major source of activity for any individual church that their primary mission could easily become derailed by this activity and they would end up having their agenda set by these groups.[/qb]

Perhaps. But what of this, which is not the Klan, but a related cesspit: http://www.kingidentity.com/doctrine.htm ?

[jedi]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

There is no question that Satan is a liar and a deciever and that what should be obvious to many is that he will hide under any banner, including Christianity, to move his agenda of hatred forward. Those who pretend not to know this (being so knowledgeable and astute) are only being disingenuous, so that references to the KKK and other radical hatred based groups as Christian alliances is only another attempt to bash all of Christianity.

And how do some of you know what all Christianity has done to ban the likes of the Klan? You may be surprised to know had you only taken the time and effort to look past your prejudices.

--------------------
Taste and see that the Lord, He is good.

[Fledgist]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]There is no question that Satan is a liar and a deciever and that what should be obvious to many is that he will hide under any banner, including Christianity, to move his agenda of hatred forward. Those who pretend not to know this (being so knowledgeable and astute) are only being disingenuous, so that references to the KKK and other radical hatred based groups as Christian alliances is only another attempt to bash all of Christianity.

{Fledgist: I'm sorry? The fact that the Klan defines itself as Christian -- specifically Protestant -- that Klan meetings begin with prayer, that each Klavern has its own chaplain (kludd) are not relevant? The Klan proclaims itself as the defender of White Christian Civilisation, but to point this out is 'Christian bashing'? This is beyond disingenuous.}

And how do some of you know what all Christianity has done to ban the likes of the Klan? You may be surprised to know had you only taken the time and effort to look past your prejudices.

--------------------
Taste and see that the Lord, He is good.[/qb]

Provide some evidence, then.