How do you understand what you cannot see?

[jedi]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]There is no question that Satan is a liar and a deciever and that what should be obvious to many is that he will hide under any banner, including Christianity, to move his agenda of hatred forward. Those who pretend not to know this (being so knowledgeable and astute) are only being disingenuous, so that references to the KKK and other radical hatred based groups as Christian alliances is only another attempt to bash all of Christianity.

{Fledgist: I'm sorry? The fact that the Klan defines itself as Christian -- specifically Protestant -- that Klan meetings begin with prayer, that each Klavern has its own chaplain (kludd) are not relevant? The Klan proclaims itself as the defender of White Christian Civilisation, but to point this out is 'Christian bashing'? This is beyond disingenuous.}

And how do some of you know what all Christianity has done to ban the likes of the Klan? You may be surprised to know had you only taken the time and effort to look past your prejudices.

--------------------
Taste and see that the Lord, He is good.[/qb]

Provide some evidence, then.[/qb]

"Seek and ye shall find." Isn't that the way an education is gained. Did you always have to be spoon fed. After all you are the one that is making allegations against Christians? Don't you a well educated man think it is only right to check out all sides before you sling mud?

P.S. Don't even bodda add as a joiner- "ask and it shall be given unto you"- cawse ongle God cyan give yuh wah you need, mi noh have a ting fi you.
[img]/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[JM1]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

Fledgist, here is a question.

Let’s say I were to post a link to an organization like http://www.foodforthepoor.org/ or http://www.habitat.org/ every time you chose to give me yet another example of how my religious beliefs can be hijacked by persons bent on evil. And let’s say at the end of the day we each managed to post an equal number of links.

What, if anything, would you have learned from this ?

[Fledgist]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]There is no question that Satan is a liar and a deciever and that what should be obvious to many is that he will hide under any banner, including Christianity, to move his agenda of hatred forward. Those who pretend not to know this (being so knowledgeable and astute) are only being disingenuous, so that references to the KKK and other radical hatred based groups as Christian alliances is only another attempt to bash all of Christianity.

{Fledgist: I'm sorry? The fact that the Klan defines itself as Christian -- specifically Protestant -- that Klan meetings begin with prayer, that each Klavern has its own chaplain (kludd) are not relevant? The Klan proclaims itself as the defender of White Christian Civilisation, but to point this out is 'Christian bashing'? This is beyond disingenuous.}

And how do some of you know what all Christianity has done to ban the likes of the Klan? You may be surprised to know had you only taken the time and effort to look past your prejudices.

--------------------
Taste and see that the Lord, He is good.[/qb]

Provide some evidence, then.[/qb]

"Seek and ye shall find." Isn't that the way an education is gained. Did you always have to be spoon fed. After all you are the one that is making allegations against Christians? Don't you a well educated man think it is only right to check out all sides before you sling mud?

P.S. Don't even bodda add as a joiner- "ask and it shall be given unto you"- cawse ongle God cyan give yuh wah you need, mi noh have a ting fi you.
[img]/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [/qb]

Oh, I've checked out all sides. And you're having a little difficulty: You have yet to explain why the Klan is not Christian. If you make a claim, it is not my responsibility to find your evidence for you.

[jedi]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]There is no question that Satan is a liar and a deciever and that what should be obvious to many is that he will hide under any banner, including Christianity, to move his agenda of hatred forward. Those who pretend not to know this (being so knowledgeable and astute) are only being disingenuous, so that references to the KKK and other radical hatred based groups as Christian alliances is only another attempt to bash all of Christianity.

{Fledgist: I'm sorry? The fact that the Klan defines itself as Christian -- specifically Protestant -- that Klan meetings begin with prayer, that each Klavern has its own chaplain (kludd) are not relevant? The Klan proclaims itself as the defender of White Christian Civilisation, but to point this out is 'Christian bashing'? This is beyond disingenuous.}

And how do some of you know what all Christianity has done to ban the likes of the Klan? You may be surprised to know had you only taken the time and effort to look past your prejudices.

--------------------
Taste and see that the Lord, He is good.[/qb]

Provide some evidence, then.[/qb]

"Seek and ye shall find." Isn't that the way an education is gained. Did you always have to be spoon fed. After all you are the one that is making allegations against Christians? Don't you a well educated man think it is only right to check out all sides before you sling mud?

P.S. Don't even bodda add as a joiner- "ask and it shall be given unto you"- cawse ongle God cyan give yuh wah you need, mi noh have a ting fi you.
[img]/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [/qb]

Oh, I've checked out all sides. And you're having a little difficulty: You have yet to explain why the Klan is not Christian. If you make a claim, it is not my responsibility to find your evidence for you.[/qb]

Any group or groups whether they claim faith in a Christian God or not that has as their credo, the establishment of one race as superior over another is of the Anti-Christ not Christ. I thought that would be plain to you. Saying you are a Christian while engaging in wholesale hatred is Anti-Christ in other words and does not live up to the tenets of the Christian faith. Now please tell me which protestant denomination does these men subscribe to openly. The KKK just like the Neo-nazis or the Nazis is not a religious order no matter who they claim to be their God.

[Fledgist]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

Originally posted by JM1:
[qb]Fledgist, here is a question.

Let’s say I were to post a link to an organization like http://www.foodforthepoor.org/ or http://www.habitat.org/ every time you chose to give me yet another example of how my religious beliefs can be hijacked by persons bent on evil. And let’s say at the end of the day we each managed to post an equal number of links.

What, if anything, would you have learned from this ?[/qb]

That you're good at ducking.

I doubt very much that the Identity Christians whose site I referenced would consider themselves as 'persons bent on evil'. They see themselves, in fact, as voices for the good -- true Christians who have a full and thorough understanding of what the Bible and Christian teachings mean and who seek the salvation of those they believe that the Christian message was intended to reach and to redeem.

That is, in fact, the problem. When someone reacts by calling them 'fake', I want to know what the authority is for such a claim. If you define them as 'persons bent on evil' who have 'hijacked' Christianity, I want to know on what this claim is based, how you justify this conclusion.

[JM1]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

Fledgist: ”When someone reacts by calling them 'fake', I want to know what the authority is for such a claim. If you define them as 'persons bent on evil' who have 'hijacked' Christianity, I want to know on what this claim is based, how you justify this conclusion.”

”WE BELIEVE the White, Anglo-Saxon, Germanic and kindred people to be God's true, literal Children of Israel. Only this race fulfills every detail of Biblical Prophecy and World History concerning Israel and continues in these latter days to be heirs and possessors of the Covenants, Prophecies, Promises and Blessings YHVH God made to Israel”

Sorry Fledgist but I could go no further than this “doctrine” from the last link you posted. My stomach wouldn’t let me. And as far as my use of the phrase “bent on evil” is concerned, I assumed that you knew Timothy McVeigh was associated with the Christian Identity movement.

If, having read the above quote, you intend to insist that I have no basis for making the statement that Protestantism has been hijacked by a group such as this, or, as others have said, are “fake”, then your position becomes so close to obscurantism that further exchanges with you on this subject would, quite frankly, be pointless.

[Fledgist]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]There is no question that Satan is a liar and a deciever and that what should be obvious to many is that he will hide under any banner, including Christianity, to move his agenda of hatred forward. Those who pretend not to know this (being so knowledgeable and astute) are only being disingenuous, so that references to the KKK and other radical hatred based groups as Christian alliances is only another attempt to bash all of Christianity.

{Fledgist: I'm sorry? The fact that the Klan defines itself as Christian -- specifically Protestant -- that Klan meetings begin with prayer, that each Klavern has its own chaplain (kludd) are not relevant? The Klan proclaims itself as the defender of White Christian Civilisation, but to point this out is 'Christian bashing'? This is beyond disingenuous.}

And how do some of you know what all Christianity has done to ban the likes of the Klan? You may be surprised to know had you only taken the time and effort to look past your prejudices.

--------------------
Taste and see that the Lord, He is good.[/qb]

Provide some evidence, then.[/qb]

"Seek and ye shall find." Isn't that the way an education is gained. Did you always have to be spoon fed. After all you are the one that is making allegations against Christians? Don't you a well educated man think it is only right to check out all sides before you sling mud?

P.S. Don't even bodda add as a joiner- "ask and it shall be given unto you"- cawse ongle God cyan give yuh wah you need, mi noh have a ting fi you.
[img]/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [/qb]

Oh, I've checked out all sides. And you're having a little difficulty: You have yet to explain why the Klan is not Christian. If you make a claim, it is not my responsibility to find your evidence for you.[/qb]

Any group or groups whether they claim faith in a Christian God or not that has as their credo, the establishment of one race as superior over another is of the Anti-Christ not Christ. I thought that would be plain to you. Saying you are a Christian while engaging in wholesale hatred is Anti-Christ in other words and does not live up to the tenets of the Christian faith. Now please tell me which protestant denomination does these men subscribe to openly. The KKK just like the Neo-nazis or the Nazis is not a religious order no matter who they claim to be their God.[/qb]

This won't do. There are plenty of Christians over the centuries who have asserted racial superiority on the basis of biblical text -- the curse of Noah on Ham, for example.

Martin Luther King wrote the Letter from Birmingham Jail specifically to counter a joint letter by the white clergy of the town condemning his activism. The argument he used against them, however, was not a Christian one, for all that he was a Baptist preacher, but a Thoreauian/Gandhian call for direct action against injustice.

There are plenty of other examples I could call on of Christians subscribing to racist doctrines (from the fact that this was the norm for white Christians in the area I live in within the time-span of my memory, to the endorsement of white Baaskap} by the Dutch Reformed Church of South Africa -- your fellow Calvinists, to the belief of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that only in 1978 did god decree racial equality). In short, what you claim is false.

[Fledgist]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

Originally posted by JM1:
[qb]Fledgist: ”When someone reacts by calling them 'fake', I want to know what the authority is for such a claim. If you define them as 'persons bent on evil' who have 'hijacked' Christianity, I want to know on what this claim is based, how you justify this conclusion.”

”WE BELIEVE the White, Anglo-Saxon, Germanic and kindred people to be God's true, literal Children of Israel. Only this race fulfills every detail of Biblical Prophecy and World History concerning Israel and continues in these latter days to be heirs and possessors of the Covenants, Prophecies, Promises and Blessings YHVH God made to Israel”

Sorry Fledgist but I could go no further than this “doctrine” from the last link you posted. My stomach wouldn’t let me. And as far as my use of the phrase “bent on evil” is concerned, I assumed that you knew Timothy McVeigh was associated with the Christian Identity movement.

{Fledgist: I've studied the racist right, including Christian Identity, in some depth.}

If, having read the above quote, you intend to insist that I have no basis for making the statement that Protestantism has been hijacked by a group such as this, or, as others have said, are “fake”, then your position becomes so close to obscurantism that further exchanges with you on this subject would, quite frankly, be pointless.[/qb]

Protestants in the American South and in South Africa had no problem endorsing extreme racist positions within the span of my memory, and, doubtless, yours (see my reply to 'Jedi' above). They had no trouble seeing our ancestors as property. That being so, it would seem that Protestant Christianity is eminently 'hijackable'.

What you're evading, it seems to me, is an explanation of why these identity kooks are not Christians. Not an apodeictic assertion out of revulsion at the filthiness of their creed, but an explanation of why these people who call themselves Christians and see themselves as dedicated to the good are not Christians. The same could apply to the Scots Presbyterians who raped so many of our ancestors.

[jedi]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]There is no question that Satan is a liar and a deciever and that what should be obvious to many is that he will hide under any banner, including Christianity, to move his agenda of hatred forward. Those who pretend not to know this (being so knowledgeable and astute) are only being disingenuous, so that references to the KKK and other radical hatred based groups as Christian alliances is only another attempt to bash all of Christianity.

{Fledgist: I'm sorry? The fact that the Klan defines itself as Christian -- specifically Protestant -- that Klan meetings begin with prayer, that each Klavern has its own chaplain (kludd) are not relevant? The Klan proclaims itself as the defender of White Christian Civilisation, but to point this out is 'Christian bashing'? This is beyond disingenuous.}

And how do some of you know what all Christianity has done to ban the likes of the Klan? You may be surprised to know had you only taken the time and effort to look past your prejudices.

--------------------
Taste and see that the Lord, He is good.[/qb]

Provide some evidence, then.[/qb]

"Seek and ye shall find." Isn't that the way an education is gained. Did you always have to be spoon fed. After all you are the one that is making allegations against Christians? Don't you a well educated man think it is only right to check out all sides before you sling mud?

P.S. Don't even bodda add as a joiner- "ask and it shall be given unto you"- cawse ongle God cyan give yuh wah you need, mi noh have a ting fi you.
[img]/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [/qb]

Oh, I've checked out all sides. And you're having a little difficulty: You have yet to explain why the Klan is not Christian. If you make a claim, it is not my responsibility to find your evidence for you.[/qb]

Any group or groups whether they claim faith in a Christian God or not that has as their credo, the establishment of one race as superior over another is of the Anti-Christ not Christ. I thought that would be plain to you. Saying you are a Christian while engaging in wholesale hatred is Anti-Christ in other words and does not live up to the tenets of the Christian faith. Now please tell me which protestant denomination does these men subscribe to openly. The KKK just like the Neo-nazis or the Nazis is not a religious order no matter who they claim to be their God.[/qb]

This won't do. There are plenty of Christians over the centuries who have asserted racial superiority on the basis of biblical text -- the curse of Noah on Ham, for example.

Martin Luther King wrote the Letter from Birmingham Jail specifically to counter a joint letter by the white clergy of the town condemning his activism. The argument he used against them, however, was not a Christian one, for all that he was a Baptist preacher, but a Thoreauian/Gandhian call for direct action against injustice.

There are plenty of other examples I could call on of Christians subscribing to racist doctrines (from the fact that this was the norm for white Christians in the area I live in within the time-span of my memory, to the endorsement of white Baaskap} by the Dutch Reformed Church of South Africa -- your fellow Calvinists, to the belief of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that only in 1978 did god decree racial equality). In short, what you claim is false.[/qb]

Regardless of when men came to realize the truth of the Scripture, is irrelevant to this discussion, therefore what I say stands. Christianity is not based on man made principles they are the principles of Christ the Head. That it has taken sinful humanity so long to come to a full realization of the truth (and some still are blind to it while claiming to be Christians) does not make this false. Christianity is not based on the old testament it is on the new and prophisied by the old therefore to bring up Noah as an example of racism is ridiculous. You donot have a full knowledge of the Bible therefore you have no basis on which to judge whether what I said is true or false.
And please - hold fast to whatever you want to believe don't let me sway you. Our discussion is ended as far as I am concerned.

[Fledgist]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

Originally posted by Jedi:
[]Regardless of when men came to realize the truth of the Scripture, is irrelevant to this discussion, therefore what I say stands. Christianity is not based on man made principles they are the principles of Christ the Head. That it has taken sinful humanity so long to come to a full realization of the truth (and some still are blind to it while claiming to be Christians) does not make this false. Christianity is not based on the old testament it is on the new and prophisied by the old therefore to bring up Noah as an example of racism is ridiculous. You donot have a full knowledge of the Bible therefore you have no basis on which to judge whether what I said is true or false.
And please - hold fast to whatever you want to believe don't let me sway you. Our discussion is ended as far as I am concerned.[/QB]

When in a corner, run away.

Funnily enough, Christian Bibles for some reason include the whole Hebrew Bible, and it is considered authoritative. I certainly hope that if your church has the Ten Commandments posted it will be, at your instance, taking them down.

I've read the entire Bible, including the Apocrypha. While I'm no theologian (nor would wish to be one) I do have a good idea about what's in it.

What you have continually failed to do is explain why your interpretation must trump that of, say, Identity Christians. I can only presume that you lack such an explanation.

[JM1]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

"What you're evading, it seems to me, is an explanation of why these identity kooks are not Christians"

My bad. I thought that it was plainly obvious that these so-called "doctrines" are a counterfeit of those found within historic Christianity. Furthermore, please point me to anything in Scripture, that would support the idea that "White, Anglo-Saxon, Germanic and kindred people to be God's true, literal Children of Israel".

What you are evading on the other hand, is an explanation of why the lunatic fringe defines for you in some manner, the faith and practice of Christians in general, and not say, those persons who run 'Food for the Poor', a link for whom appears in my previous post.

Incidentally, do you feel the same way about Louis Farrakhan's NOI and its relationship to Islam ?

[coffeegyal]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

My overly simplistic view of this discussion:

Any large organization of people is bound to have splinter groups--people who feel they have the true interpetation of the group's values and that they are the only ones who really get it. It's no suprise that a given religion (or political party, for instance) whose membership includes a vast number of individuals will include individuals with different interpretations of the "rules" or "values" or "mission" of the group.

No organization can mean the same thing to each of its members, but each member will likely claim ownership of the truth of that organization.

[JM1]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

To put it another way CG, when analysing any bell shaped curve, it is the outliers, those greater than two standard deviations from the norm, that generally create the most interpretive controversies. It is through the prism of those who lie in this territory that Fledgist prefers to view Christianity.

[Fledgist]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

Originally posted by JM1:
[qb]"What you're evading, it seems to me, is an explanation of why these identity kooks are not Christians"

My bad. I thought that it was plainly obvious that these so-called "doctrines" are a counterfeit of those found within historic Christianity. Furthermore, please point me to anything in Scripture, that would support the idea that "White, Anglo-Saxon, Germanic and kindred people to be God's true, literal Children of Israel".

{Fledgist: I can't, but some people, on the other hand can (by, among other things, pseudo-etymological claims: that 'Saxon' means 'Son of Isaac', for example; or by the claim that 'Adam' means 'showing blood in the face' rather than simply 'ruddy'). What bothers me is that these fringe people are simply outliers of a long Christian tradition of racism -- and I'm certain you're not going to pretend that it doesn't exist. That most Christians today are at least made uncomfortable by the Identity kooks is a good thing, but most churches have some rather embarassing skeletons in their closets.}

What you are evading on the other hand, is an explanation of why the lunatic fringe defines for you in some manner, the faith and practice of Christians in general, and not say, those persons who run 'Food for the Poor', a link for whom appears in my previous post.

{Fledgist: Because Christians who simply do good things -- without linking them to forced religious exercise or conversion -- because of a sense of moral obligation so to do are quite rare. I have nothing but admiration for Francis of Assisi, for example, or for John Brown, or Martin Luther King. On the other hand, the history of Christianity as a whole is, shall we say, less than inspiring.}

Incidentally, do you feel the same way about Louis Farrakhan's NOI and its relationship to Islam ?[/qb]

Louis Farrakhan is a pimple on the posterior of humanity, and the Nation of Idiots benefits nobody except the bow-tie makers. Islam, however, has its own set of problems (the maintenance of slavery as an institution, the subordination of women, the persecution of people who refuse to accept the 'truth' of the Quran in a number of countries, a legal system which can let a man walk free because he swears innocence on the Quran, but sentence a woman to death for the self-same crime, to name but a few).

[Fledgist]

Re: How do you understand what you cannot see?

Originally posted by JM1:
[qb]To put it another way CG, when analysing any bell shaped curve, it is the outliers, those greater than two standard deviations from the norm, that generally create the most interpretive controversies. It is through the prism of those who lie in this territory that Fledgist prefers to view Christianity.[/qb]

The 'outliers' in this case have included every major Protestant denomination in the US (all of them supported segregation until almost the end).