Can religion be imposed/forced?

[jedi]

Re: Can religion be imposed/forced?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fledgist:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jedi:

and btw Fledgist, some of these historians are the children of ex-slavemasters.....mind how you quote them...and walk good in the light not in the dark.

{Fledgist: What, that other people don't share your superstitions? I have good friends whose ancestors owned mine; I certainly don't blame them for the crimes of their ancestors. What I reject, utterly and completely, is the religion imposed on my ancestors as a means of social/ideological control. A religion that tells slaves to obey their masters is not one that is morally or intellectually good for the slaves.}

Thank God you are here because some slaves were smart enough not to run or them woulda get beaten or wussa yet heng. Freedom came though didn't it? Emancipation for us didnot come as a result of rebellion. Though some did rebel and were sucessful, more died from getting caught. For though they were enslaved they were free to choose which was the smarter thing to do. But now you have lived long enough to enjoy the fruits of their obedience, and feel on equal footing with the slavemasters decendants so you tek up dem teachings which is wussa enslavement, it is the enslavement of your mind.

] Now let me see if I can understand this. Todays thinking by many is this: The white man forced "white religion", on our forefathers who had no choice but to accept it because they were slaves. Now then by using "white man's decendants history books and logical teachings" we will reject the "white religion" imposed on us by the "white slavemasters." Hmmmm.

[/{Fledgist: That which frees me is going to be much more valued than that which enslaves me. I see you have a problem telling the difference.}

What are you more free to do than I am? Please tell me since I am a slave to Christian doctrines. You mean to say you are free to commit adultry with a clean conscience, lie, steal, kill, covet, cuss your parents?

Or do you mean free from worshiping a God? Yes indeed that is the problem isn't it? I worship God and you worship "self". So then you are still a slave. Therefore it is a matter of who you choose to serve. Everyone serves someone or something. The "self" has limitations too numerous to count, one of which is fear. I fear nothing save He who is able to destroy the self and then turn around and condemn it to eternal hell. And if you say you have no fears then you are the liar. Fear of each and every day, when all your self is your possession and position without which you are nothing more than the next bum on the street corner. No sir whether I am physically in chains or walking "free" I am free. Whether I drive a fancy car or an old jalopy I am free. Whether I eat mackerel and banana or filet mignon, I am free, whether I vacation in my house or on the Riviera, I am free, whether I am homeless or live in a mansion, I am free. This world is not my home it is yours.

Well maybe I am biased.

Dishonest

The greatest liar is the one that lies to himself.

[Fledgist]

Re: Can religion be imposed/forced?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Fledgist:

Originally posted by Jedi:

and btw Fledgist, some of these historians are the children of ex-slavemasters.....mind how you quote them...and walk good in the light not in the dark.

{Fledgist: What, that other people don't share your superstitions? I have good friends whose ancestors owned mine; I certainly don't blame them for the crimes of their ancestors. What I reject, utterly and completely, is the religion imposed on my ancestors as a means of social/ideological control. A religion that tells slaves to obey their masters is not one that is morally or intellectually good for the slaves.}

Thank God you are here because some slaves were smart enough not to run or them woulda get beaten or wussa yet heng. Freedom came though didn't it? Emancipation for us didnot come as a result of rebellion. Though some did rebel and were sucessful, more died from getting caught. For though they were enslaved they were free to choose which was the smarter thing to do. But now you have lived long enough to enjoy the fruits of their obedience, and feel on equal footing with the slavemasters decendants so you tek up dem teachings which is wussa enslavement, it is the enslavement of your mind.

{Fledgist: And whose teachings have I taken up, pray tell? Emancipation didn't come as a result of rebellion? Now that's interesting since a growing number of historians consider that the slave rebellion of 1831-32 in Jamaica was a major factor inducing the British parliament to pass the Emancipation Act in 1833.

As for my mind, perhaps you'd care to tell in what thrall it is held?}

] Now let me see if I can understand this. Todays thinking by many is this: The white man forced "white religion", on our forefathers who had no choice but to accept it because they were slaves. Now then by using "white man's decendants history books and logical teachings" we will reject the "white religion" imposed on us by the "white slavemasters." Hmmmm.

[/{Fledgist: That which frees me is going to be much more valued than that which enslaves me. I see you have a problem telling the difference.}

What are you more free to do than I am? Please tell me since I am a slave to Christian doctrines. You mean to say you are free to commit adultry with a clean conscience, lie, steal, kill, covet, cuss your parents?

{Fledgist: You mean you aren't? I've never come across anyone who was stopped by religious doctrine from committing crimes -- your fellow Christians Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker, for example. You are, foolishly, confusing religion and morality -- there are non-religious ethics, after all, such as Confucianism, Kantianism, and Consequentialism. Are you going to tell me that Masters Kong and Meng were white men?}

Or do you mean free from worshiping a God? Yes indeed that is the problem isn't it? I worship God and you worship "self". So then you are still

{I worship 'self'? That's certainly not the case. Once again, you're lying.}

a slave. Therefore it is a matter of who you choose to serve. Everyone serves someone or

{Fledgist: Rubbish. I don't 'serve' anyone. If I 'serve' anything it is knowledge.}

something. The "self" has limitations too numerous to count, one of which is fear. I fear nothing save He who is able to destroy the self and then turn around and condemn it to eternal hell. And if you say you have no fears then you are the liar. Fear of each and every day,

{Fledgist: Of course I have fears, that's perfectly normal. However, since you've erected a straw man and are perfectly happily demolishing it, you might want to consider that attributing beliefs and practices to others who do not have those beliefs and/or practices is dishonest.}

when all your self is your possession and position without which you are nothing more than the next bum on the street corner. No sir whether I am physically in chains or walking "free" I am free. Whether I drive a fancy car or an old jalopy I am free. Whether I eat mackerel and banana or filet mignon, I am free, whether I vacation in my house or on the Riviera, I am free, whether I am homeless or live in a mansion, I am free. This world is not my home it is yours.

{Fledgist: Then you ought to take the opportunity of heading off to your home, wherever it is. Write when you get there.}

Well maybe I am biased.

Dishonest

The greatest liar is the one that lies to himself.[/qb]

Yourself, for example?

[jedi]

Re: Can religion be imposed/forced?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:

Originally posted by Jedi:

and btw Fledgist, some of these historians are the children of ex-slavemasters.....mind how you quote them...and walk good in the light not in the dark.

{Fledgist: What, that other people don't share your superstitions? I have good friends whose ancestors owned mine; I certainly don't blame them for the crimes of their ancestors. What I reject, utterly and completely, is the religion imposed on my ancestors as a means of social/ideological control. A religion that tells slaves to obey their masters is not one that is morally or intellectually good for the slaves.}

Thank God you are here because some slaves were smart enough not to run or them woulda get beaten or wussa yet heng. Freedom came though didn't it? Emancipation for us didnot come as a result of rebellion. Though some did rebel and were sucessful, more died from getting caught. For though they were enslaved they were free to choose which was the smarter thing to do. But now you have lived long enough to enjoy the fruits of their obedience, and feel on equal footing with the slavemasters decendants so you tek up dem teachings which is wussa enslavement, it is the enslavement of your mind.

{Fledgist: And whose teachings have I taken up, pray tell? Emancipation didn't come as a result of rebellion? Now that's interesting since a growing number of historians consider that the slave rebellion of 1831-32 in Jamaica was a major factor inducing the British parliament to pass the Emancipation Act in 1833.

As for my mind, perhaps you'd care to tell in what thrall it is held?}

] Now let me see if I can understand this. Todays thinking by many is this: The white man forced "white religion", on our forefathers who had no choice but to accept it because they were slaves. Now then by using "white man's decendants history books and logical teachings" we will reject the "white religion" imposed on us by the "white slavemasters." Hmmmm.

[/{Fledgist: That which frees me is going to be much more valued than that which enslaves me. I see you have a problem telling the difference.}

What are you more free to do than I am? Please tell me since I am a slave to Christian doctrines. You mean to say you are free to commit adultry with a clean conscience, lie, steal, kill, covet, cuss your parents?

{Fledgist: You mean you aren't? I've never come across anyone who was stopped by religious doctrine from committing crimes -- your fellow Christians Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker, for example. You are, foolishly, confusing religion and morality -- there are non-religious ethics, after all, such as Confucianism, Kantianism, and Consequentialism. Are you going to tell me that Masters Kong and Meng were white men?}

Or do you mean free from worshiping a God? Yes indeed that is the problem isn't it? I worship God and you worship "self". So then you are still

{I worship 'self'? That's certainly not the case. Once again, you're lying.}

a slave. Therefore it is a matter of who you choose to serve. Everyone serves someone or

{Fledgist: Rubbish. I don't 'serve' anyone. If I 'serve' anything it is knowledge.}

something. The "self" has limitations too numerous to count, one of which is fear. I fear nothing save He who is able to destroy the self and then turn around and condemn it to eternal hell. And if you say you have no fears then you are the liar. Fear of each and every day,

{Fledgist: Of course I have fears, that's perfectly normal. However, since you've erected a straw man and are perfectly happily demolishing it, you might want to consider that attributing beliefs and practices to others who do not have those beliefs and/or practices is dishonest.}

when all your self is your possession and position without which you are nothing more than the next bum on the street corner. No sir whether I am physically in chains or walking "free" I am free. Whether I drive a fancy car or an old jalopy I am free. Whether I eat mackerel and banana or filet mignon, I am free, whether I vacation in my house or on the Riviera, I am free, whether I am homeless or live in a mansion, I am free. This world is not my home it is yours.

{Fledgist: Then you ought to take the opportunity of heading off to your home, wherever it is. Write when you get there.}

Well maybe I am biased.

Dishonest

The greatest liar is the one that lies to himself.[/qb]

Yourself, for example?[/qb]

I never expected you to admit to any of this. But the truth hurts doesn't it???

[Fledgist]

Re: Can religion be imposed/forced?

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]I never expected you to admit to any of this. But the truth hurts doesn't it???[/qb]

Let's see, you state that I worship my 'self', which is simply not the case, and then you claim that it is 'truth'.

You have no idea to what philosophies I subscribe , what ideals I have, and what provides me with happiness, satisfaction, and purpose. What you have done is attributed to me a straw man of your creation, and then claimed it is truth. Thus, you have demonstrated a real inability to tell truth from the fictions you construct.

Clearly, any religion -- such as yours -- which promotes narrow-mindedness, dishonesty, and self-satisfaction has more defects than virtues. You've done your best to demonstrate that.

[jedi]

Re: Can religion be imposed/forced?

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]I never expected you to admit to any of this. But the truth hurts doesn't it???[/qb]

Let's see, you state that I worship my 'self', which is simply not the case, and then you claim that it is 'truth'.

You have no idea to what philosophies I subscribe , what ideals I have, and what provides me with happiness, satisfaction, and purpose. What you have done is attributed to me a straw man of your creation, and then claimed it is truth. Thus, you have demonstrated a real inability to tell truth from the fictions you construct.

Clearly, any religion -- such as yours -- which promotes narrow-mindedness, dishonesty, and self-satisfaction has more defects than virtues. You've done your best to demonstrate that.[/qb]

Again the truth hurts doesn't it.

[britisha]

Re: Can religion be imposed/forced?

My point is, IMHO a religion, a system of beliefs, canNOT be imposed it has to be shown/taught subject to acceptance or rejection...for the simple reason that it incorporates the use of free will.....to the point of being redundant.

The problem herein lies with the word "imposed" which IMHO is irrelevant to religion, 'though you so adamantly imply can be related Fledgist. While "religion" which you stated correctly is a broad term, the context here is in reference to christianity and slaves in the Americas, although I cannot fathom any religion that does not incorporate 'belief'.

I maintain my position that religion canNOt be imposed for the umpteenth time and let me attempt to break it down a little simpler. We hve to agree on these premises to follow my argument, and if you don't then show where they are false.

Premise # 1: religion is based on beliefs...agree?

Premise # 2: a belief that a individual [honestly] accepts is solely determined by the individuals mind, will....

...an outcome of a set of thought processes, the same can be said for rejection,...but if it is rejected then it is not a belief, eg I don't believe this or that, in other words I reject it..

Premise # 3: what *I* believe, is MY belief and what you believe is YOUR belief., again based on # 2.

Premise # 4: a belief is intangible, it cannot be seen, touched, smelt, eaten etc; based on it's nature or essence.

While many people may share similar belief-concept based on how they describe them, the fact still remains that YOUR belief is your's and MY belief is mine.

Although a religion may utilise certain rituals/dogmas/practices eg bible/Torah reading and discussion, to demonstrate that this is a part of what the religion comprises; what distinguishes it from say a piece of bread is, in the final analysis, the acceptance of these principles/teachings in the form of "beliefs" shared by like-minded individuals [with or without the concept of a deity] that gives it nature.

These dogmas, teachings, rituals are not "beliefs" in themselves, they are demonstrations of beliefs, THEREFORE, while slave masters might have demonsrated what THEY believe, they could not force a belief on/an/ in individual...it is not possible, again based on the definition of "belief", unless you are saying that religions are not in essence merely "beliefs" but actions as well. And if you do, then this throws out the concept of religion in this discussion....and please do not tell me that people may share the "same type of belief", because while it may be of similar type, it is in essence not the same...based on my premise # 3.

btw Fledgist, I have observed that you tend to lean more favorably towards indigenous religions, giving them more props than christianity....if you are anti-all religions, then what should it matter if one religion was traded for another, since all religions are "superstitions"? Just curious. I might even venture to say that your anti-religion argument has skewed your position. How do you know that the slaves didn't influence the slavemasters with their religions also...notice I said influence, for after all that they endured, they survived, the slavemasters could've been thinking that their God must have been still looking out for them [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] ....[another topic for discussion... Did indigenous religions play a role in the presevation of slaves in bondage... maybe] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[britisha]

Re: Can religion be imposed/forced?

Clearly, any religion -- such as yours -- which promotes narrow-mindedness, dishonesty, and self-satisfaction has more defects than virtues. You've done your best to demonstrate that.

A rather low blow, fight with your hands above your waist, please or you will be disqualified from the ring. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Are you saying that Jedi is the sumtotal of the religion that she believes in? Hmmm?
[img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[britisha]

Re: Can religion be imposed/forced?

{Fledgist: You mean you aren't? I've never come across anyone who was stopped by religious doctrine from committing crimes -- your fellow Christians Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker, for example. You are, foolishly, confusing religion and morality -- there are non-religious ethics, after all, such as Confucianism, Kantianism, and Consequentialism. Are you going to tell me that Masters Kong and Meng were white men?}

Have you ever heard of "thou shalt not kill"?..Tell me Fledge, how do YOU know that many killed only in their minds for their religion clearly forbids them to do this.

While atheists and non-christians may not kill because of their moral leanings, this doesn't say that others didn't refrain merely based on the teachings of the good book....you cannot prove this. Swaggart and Bakker were merely sinners, which we all are, it is the good book that is preventing some of us from going ballistic. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

And you stated "anyone" with reference to Swaggart and Bakker, being the exceptions, have they then become "everyone"?

White ppl entered this thread because they were the slavemasters who it is implied "imposed" their religion on the black slaves, and Jedi's statement was a follow up on my statement, based on your statements which I am trying to refute....soo...let's keep things in perspective here or I am going to think you are straying from the topic at hand.

[Fledgist]

Re: Can religion be imposed/forced?

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]I never expected you to admit to any of this. But the truth hurts doesn't it???[/qb]

Let's see, you state that I worship my 'self', which is simply not the case, and then you claim that it is 'truth'.

You have no idea to what philosophies I subscribe , what ideals I have, and what provides me with happiness, satisfaction, and purpose. What you have done is attributed to me a straw man of your creation, and then claimed it is truth. Thus, you have demonstrated a real inability to tell truth from the fictions you construct.

Clearly, any religion -- such as yours -- which promotes narrow-mindedness, dishonesty, and self-satisfaction has more defects than virtues. You've done your best to demonstrate that.[/qb]

Again the truth hurts doesn't it.[/qb]

Your difficulty in telling truth from falsehood is noted.

[Fledgist]

Re: Can religion be imposed/forced?

Originally posted by britisha:
[qb]My point is, IMHO a religion, a system of beliefs, canNOT be imposed it has to be shown/taught subject to acceptance or rejection...for the simple reason that it incorporates the use of free will.....to the point of being redundant.

The problem herein lies with the word "imposed" which IMHO is irrelevant to religion, 'though you so adamantly imply can be related Fledgist. While "religion" which you stated correctly is a broad term, the context here is in reference to christianity and slaves in the Americas, although I cannot fathom any religion that does not incorporate 'belief'.

I maintain my position that religion canNOt be imposed for the umpteenth time and let me attempt to break it down a little simpler. We hve to agree on these premises to follow my argument, and if you don't then show where they are false.

Premise # 1: religion is based on beliefs...agree?

{Fledgist: No. A religion is a matter of ritual and practice. Shinto in Japan, for example, plays an important part in public and private life, but it does not seem that many of its practicioners believe in it.

In late-mediæval/early-renaissance Spain, thousands of Jews were forced to adopt Christianity, forced to have their children receive Christian religious instruction, and punished if they broke their oaths to practice Christianity.}

Premise # 2: a belief that a individual [honestly] accepts is solely determined by the individuals mind, will....

{Fledgist: That 'honestly' doesn't belong in there. An individual who is under compulsion may have no choice. The swords of Charlemagne's soldiers were sharp, the whip of the slavemaster could kill.}

...an outcome of a set of thought processes, the same can be said for rejection,...but if it is rejected then it is not a belief, eg I don't believe this or that, in other words I reject it..

Premise # 3: what *I* believe, is MY belief and what you believe is YOUR belief., again based on # 2.

{Fledgist: This seems unnecessary, but okay.}

Premise # 4: a belief is intangible, it cannot be seen, touched, smelt, eaten etc; based on it's nature or essence.

{Fledgist: It's a thought. But what is believed in may be quite tangible -- e.g., that listening to the missionary will bring relief from the whip.}

While many people may share similar belief-concept based on how they describe them, the fact still remains that YOUR belief is your's and MY belief is mine.

Although a religion may utilise certain rituals/dogmas/practices eg bible/Torah reading and discussion, to demonstrate that this is a part of what the religion comprises; what distinguishes it from say a piece of bread is, in the final analysis, the acceptance of these principles/teachings in the form of "beliefs" shared by like-minded individuals [with or without the concept of a deity] that gives it nature.

{Fledgist: What makes the distinction is its role in the ritual.}

These dogmas, teachings, rituals are not "beliefs" in themselves, they are demonstrations of beliefs, THEREFORE, while slave masters might have demonsrated what THEY believe, they could not force a belief on/an/ in individual...it is not possible, again based on

{Fledgist: They could and did force them to listen to missionaries, and force them to send their children to be taught Christianity by the missionaries. Slaves are not free people.}

the definition of "belief", unless you are saying that religions are not in essence merely "beliefs" but actions as well. And if you do, then this throws out the concept of religion in this discussion....and please do not tell me that people may share the "same type of belief", because while it may be of similar type, it is in essence not the same...based on my premise # 3.

{Fledgist: A religion requires acts as well as beliefs.}

btw Fledgist, I have observed that you tend to lean more favorably towards indigenous religions, giving them more props than christianity....if you are anti-all religions, then what should it matter if one religion was traded for another, since all religions are "superstitions"? Just

{Fledgist: It has nothing to do with the religions as belief systems. It has to do with imperialism, oppression, enslavement, and the creation of cultural/ethnic/racial self-hatred.}

curious. I might even venture to say that your anti-religion argument has skewed your position. How do you know that the slaves didn't influence the slavemasters with their religions also...notice I said influence, for after all that they endured, they survived, the slavemasters could've been thinking that their God must have been still looking out for them [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] ....[another topic for discussion... Did indigenous religions play a role in the presevation of slaves in bondage... maybe] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [/qb]

An interesting topic.

[Fledgist]

Re: Can religion be imposed/forced?

Originally posted by britisha:
[qb]{Fledgist: You mean you aren't? I've never come across anyone who was stopped by religious doctrine from committing crimes -- your fellow Christians Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker, for example. You are, foolishly, confusing religion and morality -- there are non-religious ethics, after all, such as Confucianism, Kantianism, and Consequentialism. Are you going to tell me that Masters Kong and Meng were white men?}

Have you ever heard of "thou shalt not kill"?..Tell me Fledge, how do YOU know that many killed only in their minds for their religion clearly forbids them to do this.

{Fledgist: I've tried killing in my mind, but it doesn't work. Morality has to do with acts, not thoughts. A prohibition on killing does not stop someone from thinking 'dat %^&*%^$ fi dead'. Beyond that, what is your point? If you mean that Christianity contains a moral code, I'll be glad to agree. If you're trying to suggest that it is superior to other moral codes, you'll have to provide the evidence.}

While atheists and non-christians may not kill because of their moral leanings, this doesn't say that others didn't refrain merely based on the teachings of the good book....you cannot prove this. Swaggart and Bakker were merely sinners, which we all are, it is the good book that is preventing some of us from going ballistic. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

{[i]Fledgist: This requires that I agree with the premise that there is such a thing as 'sin' (as opposed to crime, wicked intent, and so on). You might recall that Swaggart claimed that god had forgiven him, and then went and sought the assistance of a prostitute to satisfy a rather odd sexual craving. What did the 'good book' do for him?}

And you stated "anyone" with reference to Swaggart and Bakker, being the exceptions, have they then become "everyone"?

{Fledgist: Hmm. What I could do with a straight line like that...

No, Britisha, they're examples. That's all.}

White ppl entered this thread because they were the slavemasters who it is implied "imposed" their religion on the black slaves, and Jedi's statement was a follow up on my statement, based on your statements which I am trying to refute....soo...let's keep things in perspective here or I am going to think you are straying from the topic at hand.[/qb]

Er, Jedi was trying to claim that I was being inconsistent by condemning white people for imposing slavery and racism, and deracinating black people, while at the same time basing my own ideas on those of other white people. I'm still waiting to hear if Masters Kong and Meng were white or not.

[Fledgist]

Re: Can religion be imposed/forced?

Originally posted by britisha:
[qb]Clearly, any religion -- such as yours -- which promotes narrow-mindedness, dishonesty, and self-satisfaction has more defects than virtues. You've done your best to demonstrate that.

A rather low blow, fight with your hands above your waist, please or you will be disqualified from the ring. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Are you saying that Jedi is the sumtotal of the religion that she believes in? Hmmm?
[img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [/qb]

Jedi has deliberately lied, asserting -- on the basis of no evidence -- that I worship 'self'.
I treat people who lie to, or about, me as worthless scum, not entitled to the least courtesy. Unless, of course, they have the grace and decency to apologise.

She is a fine example of her religion.

[britisha]

Re: Can religion be imposed/forced?

Originally posted by britisha:
Premise # 1: religion is based on beliefs...agree?

{Fledgist: No. A religion is a matter of ritual and practice. Shinto in Japan, for example, plays an important part in public and private life, but it does not seem that many of its practicioners believe in it.

In late-mediæval/early-renaissance Spain, thousands of Jews were forced to adopt Christianity, forced to have their children receive Christian religious instruction, and punished if they broke their oaths to practice Christianity.}
britisha:
Yes, but what you are describing is no different some of the same torturs that many of the martyrs underwent dying for their "beliefs" rather than conform to their murderers....and surprise, surprise, wow!! a relligion is a "matter of ritual and practice?" No incorporation of "belief?" Veeerryyy interesting. Hmm.

by britisha

Premise # 2: a belief that a individual [honestly] accepts is solely determined by the individuals mind, will....

{Fledgist: That 'honestly' doesn't belong in there. An individual who is under compulsion may have no choice. The swords of Charlemagne's soldiers were sharp, the whip of the slavemaster could kill.}

Exactly, the individual has no choice but to behave a certain way based on fear, however it still doesn't show where they are behaving from "belief" in what they are doing but rather from out of fear. Reminds me of Patty Hearst and the Simbionese Liberation Army that had kidnapped her....she went along with the program, but how could she convince the system that she wasn't a revolutionary? She went back to mainstream society; didn't she?

by britisha

Premise # 3: what *I* believe, is MY belief and what you believe is YOUR belief., again based on # 2.
Premise # 4: a belief is intangible, it cannot be seen, touched, smelt, eaten etc; based on it's nature or essence.

{Fledgist: It's a thought. But what is believed in may be quite tangible -- e.g., that listening to the missionary will bring relief from the whip.}
Response:

Pray tell me, what this has to do with belief, the slave master beating the non-believer..do tell.

britisha:

While many people may share similar belief-concept based on how they describe them, the fact still remains that YOUR belief is your's and MY belief is mine.

Although a religion may utilise certain rituals/dogmas/practices eg bible/Torah reading and discussion, to demonstrate that this is a part of what the religion comprises; what distinguishes it from say a piece of bread is, in the final analysis, the acceptance of these principles/teachings in the form of "beliefs" shared by like-minded individuals [with or without the concept of a deity] that gives it nature.

{Fledgist: What makes the distinction is its role in the ritual.}

Response:

But you just stated that the ritual is based on fear from beatings, so why are you incorporating "belief" now?...you sound confused.

britisha:

These dogmas, teachings, rituals are not "beliefs" in themselves, they are demonstrations of beliefs, THEREFORE, while slave masters might have demonsrated what THEY believe, they could not force a belief on/an/ in individual...it is not possible, again based on
the definition of "belief", unless you are saying that religions are not in essence merely "beliefs" but actions as well. And if you do, then this throws out the concept of religion in this discussion....and please do not tell me that people may share the "same type of belief", because while it may be of similar type, it is in essence not the same...based on my premise # 3.

{Fledgist: A religion requires acts as well as beliefs.}

britisha:

Aahhh, now you are confused, you just earlier gave an example of the Japanese who practice shintu etc, while not believing....and now you contradict yourself by making the above statement....Hmm? Thanks for validating my point, giving it meat and substance. You have in a round-a-bout way agree that there has to be the incorporation of belief...which goes back to my original question, can a "belief" be imposed....which you have NOT answered....so while ONE can force a person to do certain things under pain of death, it still doesn't necessarily say that the person believes what the person is telling him to do...for the simple reason that the oppressor can fool himself all he wants by thinking the victim believes what he believes, knowing damn well that this might NOT be the case. In other words, the oppressor still has HIS belief while the victim holds on to HIS [ie his own personal beliefs inside his cranium, unless the slavemaster performed craniotomies and implanted their beliefs in the grey and white matter]. {topic for a new thread, Can beliefs be transplanted?) [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Where do I draw the dividing line between acts and beliefs?

britisha:

btw Fledgist, I have observed that you tend to lean more favorably towards indigenous religions, giving them more props than christianity....if you are anti-all religions, then what should it matter if one religion was traded for another, since all religions are "superstitions"?

{Fledgist: It has nothing to do with the religions as belief systems.

Response:
Then why do you use it so often to make your points, since it is a moot point that christians are following a religion that was imposed on them and their foreparents?
Fledgist: [response to earlier post]
It has to do with imperialism, oppression, enslavement, and the creation of cultural/ethnic/racial self-hatred.}

britisha: you could've fooled us....so it technically has nothing to do with which God christians choose to worship, again you could've fooled me.

Thanks for your interest and discussion, aldoa yu still no hanswa mi kwestians.

Walk good and have a BLESSED weekend. Mi gaawn a street. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Fledgist]

Re: Can religion be imposed/forced?

Originally posted by britisha:
[qb]

Originally posted by britisha:
Premise # 1: religion is based on beliefs...agree?

{Fledgist: No. A religion is a matter of ritual and practice. Shinto in Japan, for example, plays an important part in public and private life, but it does not seem that many of its practicioners believe in it.

In late-mediæval/early-renaissance Spain, thousands of Jews were forced to adopt Christianity, forced to have their children receive Christian religious instruction, and punished if they broke their oaths to practice Christianity.}
britisha:
Yes, but what you are describing is no different some of the same torturs that many of the martyrs underwent dying for their "beliefs" rather than conform to their murderers....and surprise, surprise, wow!! a relligion is a "matter of ritual and practice?" No incorporation of "belief?" Veeerryyy interesting. Hmm.

{Fledgist: The Inquisition could not see into their heads, but it could find out what they were doing (or not doing, as the case might be).}

by britisha

Premise # 2: a belief that a individual [honestly] accepts is solely determined by the individuals mind, will....

{Fledgist: That 'honestly' doesn't belong in there. An individual who is under compulsion may have no choice. The swords of Charlemagne's soldiers were sharp, the whip of the slavemaster could kill.}

Exactly, the individual has no choice but to behave a certain way based on fear, however it still doesn't show where they are behaving from "belief" in what they are doing but rather from out of fear. Reminds me of Patty Hearst and the Simbionese Liberation Army that had kidnapped her....she went along with the program, but how could she convince the system that she wasn't a revolutionary? She went back to mainstream society; didn't she?

{Fledgist: But she also came, while held by the SLA, to accept their beliefs, and seems to have been a quite willing participant in a bank robbery. If I kidnap you and keep quoting, say, Anton Szandor LaVey at you, I could probably turn you into a good Satanist simply because of your need for human contact and communication. Would that be willing?}

by britisha

Premise # 3: what *I* believe, is MY belief and what you believe is YOUR belief., again based on # 2.
Premise # 4: a belief is intangible, it cannot be seen, touched, smelt, eaten etc; based on it's nature or essence.

{Fledgist: It's a thought. But what is believed in may be quite tangible -- e.g., that listening to the missionary will bring relief from the whip.}
Response:

Pray tell me, what this has to do with belief, the slave master beating the non-believer..do tell.

{Fledgist: A lot. If attending Sunday school on the plantation is enforced by the whip, then people will go to Sunday school in the belief that doing so will result in their not being whipped. Sorry I didn't make that absolutely chrystal clear.}

britisha:

While many people may share similar belief-concept based on how they describe them, the fact still remains that YOUR belief is your's and MY belief is mine.

Although a religion may utilise certain rituals/dogmas/practices eg bible/Torah reading and discussion, to demonstrate that this is a part of what the religion comprises; what distinguishes it from say a piece of bread is, in the final analysis, the acceptance of these principles/teachings in the form of "beliefs" shared by like-minded individuals [with or without the concept of a deity] that gives it nature.

{Fledgist: What makes the distinction is its role in the ritual.}

Response:

But you just stated that the ritual is based on fear from beatings, so why are you incorporating "belief" now?...you sound confused.

{Fledgist: Nope. (Though you do seem to be more than slightly disingenuous.) People do participate in rituals voluntarily -- not that slaves ever did.}

britisha:

These dogmas, teachings, rituals are not "beliefs" in themselves, they are demonstrations of beliefs, THEREFORE, while slave masters might have demonsrated what THEY believe, they could not force a belief on/an/ in individual...it is not possible, again based on
the definition of "belief", unless you are saying that religions are not in essence merely "beliefs" but actions as well. And if you do, then this throws out the concept of religion in this discussion....and please do not tell me that people may share the "same type of belief", because while it may be of similar type, it is in essence not the same...based on my premise # 3.

{Fledgist: A religion requires acts as well as beliefs.}

britisha:

Aahhh, now you are confused, you just earlier gave an example of the Japanese who practice shintu etc, while not believing....and now you contradict yourself by making the above statement....Hmm? Thanks for validating my point, giving it meat and substance. You have in a round-a-bout way agree that there has to be the incorporation of belief...which goes back to my original question, can a "belief" be imposed....which you have NOT answered....so while ONE can force a person to do certain things under pain of death, it still doesn't necessarily say that the person believes what the person is telling him to do...for the simple reason that the oppressor can fool himself all he wants by thinking the victim believes what he believes, knowing damn well that this might NOT be the case. In other words, the oppressor still has HIS belief while the victim holds on to HIS [ie his own personal beliefs inside his cranium, unless the slavemaster performed craniotomies and implanted their beliefs in the grey and white matter]. {topic for a new thread, Can beliefs be transplanted?) [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

{Fledgist: *Sigh*. Do you know what the person sitting behind you in church believes? All you know is that s/he is there in Church with you.

If someone in authority is constantly telling you what 'the truth' is, and you have no way of challenging it without receiving some condign punishment, what do you do?}


Where do I draw the dividing line between acts and beliefs?

{Fledgist: Acts can be seen.}

britisha:

btw Fledgist, I have observed that you tend to lean more favorably towards indigenous religions, giving them more props than christianity....if you are anti-all religions, then what should it matter if one religion was traded for another, since all religions are "superstitions"?

{Fledgist: It has nothing to do with the religions as belief systems.

Response:
Then why do you use it so often to make your points, since it is a moot point that christians are following a religion that was imposed on them and their foreparents?

{Fledgist: It is hardly a moot point. I use it because Christianity (and this is also true of Islam in other parts of the world) has been for centuries an instrument of power. It has been used as a means of controlling and subjugating people, removing from them their histories, identities, cultures, worldviews and so on, and replacing them with a credal system that developed in Europe.}

Fledgist: [response to earlier post]
It has to do with imperialism, oppression, enslavement, and the creation of cultural/ethnic/racial self-hatred.}

britisha: you could've fooled us....so it technically has nothing to do with which God christians choose to worship, again you could've fooled me.

{Fledgist: You're being disingenuous here.}

Thanks for your interest and discussion, aldoa yu still no hanswa mi kwestians.

Walk good and have a BLESSED weekend. Mi gaawn a street. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [/qb]

{Fledgist: I'll refrain from the obvious line. Enjoy your weekend.}

[britisha]

Re: Can religion be imposed/forced?

If someone in authority is constantly telling you what 'the truth' is, and you have no way of challenging it without receiving some condign punishment, what do you do?}

You hold on to your "beliefs" for they cannot take that away from you. What is so difficult to understand, give the slaves more credit or are you saying that they were buffoons without a mind of their own?

Me? Disingenous? I don't think so. Again the truth hurts.