The Joy of Poverty

[fOrTyLeGz]

Re: The Joy of Poverty

Originally posted by fOrTyLeGz:

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5:3)

I never understood what Jesus means here, when he talks of the "poor in spirit"? Why not just say "Blessed are the poor,..." if he is talking about being impovereshed?

Originally posted by CEW:

I see it a bit differently; they are humble and lowly in their own eyes.

mR LeGz:

sort of... I always thought he meant here people with low self esteem. People who had no faith in themselves, but allowed themselves to be totally guided by their faith in him.

So, the verse has nothing at all to do with "The Joys of Poverty."

Originally posted by Jedi:

Oh yes it does think about it........"How happy is the man whose God is the Lord" Go ahead stretch your mind.

"Stretch your mind." ? Give me a break. Stretch your fingers if you see a point to be made!

Living with low self esteem is a nightmare. People with low self esteem are easy prey for the peddlers of magic. Those liars are happy to tell you are lucky to be lost... they say, "Follow me!"

[jedi]

Re: The Joy of Poverty

Living with low self esteem is a nightmare. People with low self esteem are easy prey for the peddlers of magic. Those liars are happy to tell you are lucky to be lost... they say, "Follow me!"



"Poor in Spirit" does not mean having low self esteem that is your interpretation.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: The Joy of Poverty

Originally posted by Jedi:
Tuff Gong point well taken but let us not forget Islam also. [/QB]

Christianity is only in its Third Millennium. Forty thousand years ago Aboriginal Man were worshipping Something(s), or some Ones, I am pretty sure there were fights then, but like I pointed out more wars have been fought in modern times, for and about the various Judeo-Christian religions and doctrines.

Islam is about a millennium out of Christianity. However the term: Judeo-Christian religions and doctrines., means The Jewish Faith, Christianity, Islam, and all its derivatives.

[jedi]

Re: The Joy of Poverty

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
Tuff Gong point well taken but let us not forget Islam also. [/qb]

Christianity is only in its Third Millennium. Forty thousand years ago Aboriginal Man were worshipping Something(s), or some Ones, I am pretty sure there were fights then, but like I pointed out more wars have been fought in modern times, for and about the various Judeo-Christian religions and doctrines.

Islam is about a millennium out of Christianity. However the term: Judeo-Christian religions and doctrines., means The Jewish Faith, Christianity, Islam, and all its derivatives. [/QB]

Hmm I see, gotcha.

[Sharon]

Re: The Joy of Poverty

Jedi, then I have a question for you, which is somewhat related to the original post.

I agree with you about not being attached to material things. However, please explain to me why it is widely believed that people have to suffer/endure hardships to be closer to God. Don't you think like anything else that there are people because of how they are raised who are just good people and not attached to their material possessions. Should God not be fair and allow people who are poor in spirit, to just have a decent comfortable life.

Frankly, I believe God has little to do with whether or not we obtain/loose materal possessions. Let me explain. It's man who made money as a means of bargaining and trading, not God. It's man that employs/not employs people. These so called fluctuations in the economy are caused by men. It's just not a (God) natural event for recessions to occur every ten years like clockwork unless that recession was caused by a flood that destroyed crops which in turn caused an economy to bottom out. The stock market and the recent ups and downs are caused by men - enron executives were the first to pilfer that economy. The problem the airline industry is facing occurred because people are afraid to of fly since 9/11 and now sars. Because believe me no matter how bad the economy is supposedly doing there are "men" that stand to prosper.

i am not a born again CHRISTIAN, but events in my life have lead me to believe in a creator, and I firmly believe when anything bad happens he has nothing to do with that - maybe Satan if you buy the story of Job. It's like a phrase I heard in a show once God is fair, life is unfair, but if you believe in God he will see you through the tough times.

[jedi]

Re: The Joy of Poverty


i am not a born again CHRISTIAN, but events in my life have lead me to believe in a creator, and I firmly believe when anything bad happens he has nothing to do with that - maybe Satan if you buy the story of Job. It's like a phrase I heard in a show once God is fair, life is unfair, but if you believe in God he will see you through the tough times.

(((Sharon))) I believe in consequences, and I also believe that God is Sovereign.

1. Consequence- We suffer the consequence of our behaviors such as - bad judgement, sin, folly etc.

2. God's Sovereignty - God allows things to happen to us for several reasons:
a) To teach us a lesson i.e. reaping the consequences of our behavior.
b) To draw us closer to Him
c) To further His plans for our lives
d) To test our dependence on Him
e) To bring about our ultimate good

On the subject of Satan, he can do nothing unless God allows him as in the story of Job. God and Satan are not two equal and opposite forces. God is in control, because He created all things.

[Sharon]

Re: The Joy of Poverty

Jedi, I know God is sovereign. However, my theory is he has given us free will and basically leaves us to our own devices. He generally does not interfere in our lives unless we specifically call on him. The reason I believe this is because God is like a parent. After a certain age good parents leave us to our devices and they normally do not intervene unless we ask.
There is no way a true loving parent would ever test us - never. There is no way a true loving parent would ever want even his bad child to suffer dire consequences (unless of course after a time you feel that's the only way this particular child will learn his/her lesson).

Evil (Satan if you must)on the other hand loves company and is always trying to maneuver ourselves in our lives.

I still maintain, that with the exception of natural disasters, and some ailments when bad things happen somewhere mankind was involved.

When you lose your home because you no longer have a job. Someone fired/laid you off so that the person at the top can still enjoy his decent existence. Do you think most companies that are laying off people that the major players are really suffering?
When your friend betrays you- God has nothing to do with that your friend free will does.
When you are in an accident, somewhere someone was careless in driving - God would never wish bad on anyone.
And sometimes there is good old karma - that sometimes not all the times people get what's coming to them.

Ultimately, God may decide enough with free will, mankind still has not learned to be good to each other and maybe then he will take matters into his own hands and fully intervene in our lives - some people refer to this as then end of the world when God/ Jesus returns. And then we will be judged by how we treated our fellow citizen.

Of course this is just my belief, and maybe I'm too much of a logician, and I could be 100% wrong.

[fOrTyLeGz]

Re: The Joy of Poverty

Originally posted by Jedi:

God allows (bad) things to happen to us for several reasons:

a) To teach us a lesson i.e. reaping the consequences of our behavior.

Would you allow bad things to happen to your children if you could prevent it?

Originally posted by Jedi:


b) To draw us closer to Him

Any parent who would allow bad things happen to his child, in order to draw them closer (make them more dependent) is not a healthy person.

Originally posted by Jedi:

God allows (bad) things to happen to us for several reasons:

c) To further His plans for our lives

This is "Father knows best." Father lets us suffer, because he knows EVERYTHING.

Originally posted by Jedi:

God allows (bad) things to happen to us for several reasons:

d) To test our dependence on Him

No healthy individual wants someone dependent on him or her.

Originally posted by Jedi:

God allows (bad) things to happen to us for several reasons:

e) To bring about our ultimate good

Same as C. That is Father knows best.

[jedi]

Re: The Joy of Poverty

Sharon: Jedi, I know God is sovereign. However, my theory is he has given us free will and basically leaves us to our own devices. He generally does not interfere in our lives unless we specifically call on him.

Jedi: This sounds good in theory as you said but in reality this is not entirely true.
However in order to understand my position you would have to accept the sovereign nature of God. That is He is free to do as He wills and will utilize whomever He chooses to bring about His plans for mankind. I can think of several instances where God influenced people to do things without them directly calling on Him. There is for instance the Pharoah in Egypt who hardened his heart against Moses’ pleading. The bible says that God caused him to harden his heart. Then there is the story of the harlot Rahab, there is Ruth, and Judah’s daughter-in-law. All of the latter form the lineage from which the Messiah would come.


Sharon: The reason I believe this is because God is like a parent. After a certain age good parents leave us to our devices and they normally do not intervene unless we ask.
There is no way a true loving parent would ever test us - never.
There is no way a true loving parent would ever want even his bad child to suffer dire consequences (unless of course after a time you feel that's the only way this particular child will learn his/her lesson).

Jedi: This is not entirely true with God, you see God disciplines those whom He loves. When we come to Him, we submit ourselves to be refined and made more perfectly in the image of His Son Jesus Christ who was obedient unto death. Here is a verse which underscores this:

Hebrews 12:6because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."[1]
7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.

You know it even seems to us Christians that life was a lot easier before we came to Christ. We often wonder how others have life so easy. For the believer, there is a process of cleansing; the removal of the dross if you will that being our sin nature.. Every believer who earnestly desires to grow in intimacy and stature in the Lord will undergo diverse testings. Reason? : The refining of our faith, and the development of Godly character.

Isa.54:
10 See, I have refined you, though not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.

! Peter 1: 6… though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

But God promises that He will never test us beyond what we are able because He knows that we are weak and we are only human flesh. Even in various temptations He has promised us that with every temptation He will provide a way of escape. This may seem frightful because we are prone to worry and fear, but as we keep the faith and draw closer to Him being in obedience to His word, He gives us this assurance:.

1 Peter 5:
10And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

So the testing is not forever. But rest assured that yes God does test His children and as I said above it is all for our own benefit in the end:

James 1:
12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

Sharon: Evil (Satan if you must)on the other hand loves company and is always trying to maneuver ourselves in our lives.

Jedi: Satan is also under the power of God and can only do as much as God will allow him to do. But make no mistake about it even though he may not be a willing participant in the scheme of things God is using him too to bring about the ultimate good of all mankind.

Sharon: I still maintain, that with the exception of natural disasters, and some ailments when bad things happen somewhere mankind was involved.
When you lose your home because you no longer have a job. Someone fired/laid you off so that the person at the top can still enjoy his decent existence. Do you think most companies that are laying off people that the major players are really suffering?
When your friend betrays you- God has nothing to do with that your friend free will does.
When you are in an accident, somewhere someone was careless in driving - God would never wish bad on anyone.

Jedi: I see where you are coming from in all that you are saying, and I can understand that if you really haven’t studied the character of God nor have spent time in studying the word of God you would conclude as you do. Yes there are natural disasters and there are accidents, and there are things that appear to be above anyone’s ability to control. However understand that we are dealing with an omnipotent all powerful God. The Lord uses these and many other circumstances in the believers life to bring about His plans for that persons life. You see there are your plans and my plans and then there are Gods plans. Which do you believe is of greater importance? What if God wants to move you from your current job or out of your present relationship with a friend. You won’t do it because you can’t see the future but He does.

He may need to use your skill somewhere else to bring about his plans for what you cannot see. But you are right in one thing. All the while He is working out what is best for you the believer who has come to Him and surrendered your life to Him. That is because God is also an all wise God. What if you are not a believer? What happens when hardships hit us? Some resort to drinking or getting depressed but the majority get down on their knees. God uses bad situations to draw us to Himself.

Sharon: And sometimes there is good old karma - that sometimes not all the times people get what's coming to them.

Jedi: God is sovereign over that too. You may not have seen the end of that person because you weren't there, but believe me no one goes untouched by His hands. It may not happen in this generation but trust me everyone will pay the consequence somewhere down the line. There is nothing outside of Gods scope absolutely nothing. That is why we call Him God Almighty.

Sharon: Ultimately, God may decide enough with free will, mankind still has not learned to be good to each other and maybe then he will take matters into his own hands and fully intervene in our lives - some people refer to this as then end of the world when God/ Jesus returns. And then we will be judged by how we treated our fellow citizen.

Jedi: Yes, but matters are never ever out of Gods hands not even for one second of eternity. And we are indeed promised that there is a day coming when He will return to judge the whole earth, first the nations and then the peoples.

Sharon: Of course this is just my belief, and maybe I'm too much of a logician, and I could be 100% wrong.

Jedi: You are thinking. But now I would like to invite you to dig a little deeper and get into the word more and more. Pray on it first of course if you desire to know more the Lord will reveal Himself to you.

[Sharon]

Re: The Joy of Poverty

Food for thought Jedi. However, what in the world is going to happen to those non Christians, who do not believe in the bible. Exactly how is God going to reach them, and what resource are they going to have to rely on in their hour of need- as it will not be the bible. What do you think the fate is of our forefathers before us who knew nothing of Chritianity. Because let's not forget they were savages in Africa and had it not been for slave masters they would not have known about the Bible etcetera. But then given your reasoning slavery was probably one big whole test. So is AIDS, poverty, racism and all the other ills that plague our community (please note I know ills plague other communities but I am only dealing w/ ours for the sake of brevity)- apparently we need to be tested?

Apparently, some groups hardly get tested to the level we do and God has no need to draw them closer - do I have to spell it out here.

Sorry if I sound sarcastic, it's almost 12 and I should go to bed.

[jedi]

Re: The Joy of Poverty

Sharon: Food for thought Jedi. However, what in the world is going to happen to those non Christians, who do not believe in the bible. Exactly how is God going to reach them, and what resource are they going to have to rely on in their hour of need- as it will not be the bible.

Jedi: Sharon interesting question. However it seems that this is a whole new topic.
If you recall you began asking does a loving Father really test his children. I invite you to open a new thread with those questions so that all the other Christians can have an opportunity to answer you.

Sharon: What do you think the fate is of our forefathers before us who knew nothing of Christianity. Because let's not forget they were savages in Africa and had it not been for slave masters they would not have known about the Bible etcetera. But then given your reasoning slavery was probably one big whole test. So is AIDS, poverty, racism and all the other ills that plague our community (please note I know ills plague other communities but I am only dealing w/ ours for the sake of brevity)- apparently we need to be tested?

Jedi: Now you are talking about two different things here. First off we spoke of God testing His children, which I explained happens to those of us who surrender our lives to God. I also used scripture references to highlight that point. Now you are talking about a whole nother subject. Obviously since the people in the above were not Christians then the testing that I am referring to does not apply to them. However since all of creation belongs to God, and since he has been working out from the time the first man sinned His salvation plan for the whole world all the things you have mentioned are not in opposition to His plans but feed right into them. Those you wouldn’t call a test in the same sense another way to look at it is moving or manipulating the circumstances of mankind to bring about His desired end.

Sharon: Apparently, some groups hardly get tested to the level we do and God has no need to draw them closer - do I have to spell it out here.

Jedi: Okay as I said above there is the testing of the believer versus the natural occurrences or phenomena that molds and shapes all of mankind. Be it accidents, wars, or floods. As I said before whether you are a believer or not, everyone will experience the hand of God.

It may appear as though one group gets by and another does not, but unless you are there to see how peoples lives will turn out, you really cannot judge. All that occurs, and has occurred did so within the exact time and scheme that God has worked out beforehand. Again you would have to read the Word and follow along tracing the history, prophecies etc. to get an understanding or a clarity of how God uses people and circumstances to bring about His plan of salvation for all of mankind.

Of course you are free to believe it or not, but before you toss what I say away I suggest you get into the Word and find out for yourself [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]