The Death Of A Church?

[Diplomat]

Re: The Death Of A Church?

Originally posted by msgoody2shoes:
CEW, as with my church family, the belief in Female Pastors is a matter of everyone's own personal belief. I have plenty of scriptures against it, but that is not my subject right now.
I will never accept a Female Pastor over me.]

Interesting. I am curious as to what those 'plenty of scriptures' against the appointment of female Pastors are. You can either post a couple here or send them to me via PM.

[msgoody2shoes]

Re: The Death Of A Church?

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]

Originally posted by msgoody2shoes:
CEW, as with my church family, the belief in Female Pastors is a matter of everyone's own personal belief. I have plenty of scriptures against it, but that is not my subject right now.
I will never accept a Female Pastor over me.]

Interesting. I am curious as to what those 'plenty of scriptures' against the appointment of female Pastors are. You can either post a couple here or send them to me via PM. [/qb]

At your request, sir. I hope there is no bashing in this forum.
I firmly believe that God has an order as mentioned in I Corinthians 11:3
BUT I WOULD HAVE YOU KNOW, THAT THE HEAD OF EVERY MAN IS CHRIST; AND THE HEAD OF THE WOMAN IS THE MAN; AND THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD.
I do not believe any of those can go over their head and become their head.
There are several scriptures that oppose women speaking/preaching in the church. If they are not permitted to speak/preach, where would the Pastoring come in is the question. If there was any intention for women to carry the Word, most likely, Jesus would probably have had 6 male and 6 female disciples. He very pointedly left out all women when He taught and instructed His disciples/followers to go out and preach. The scriptures have always stressed the role of women as helpers to their husbands and keepers at home. We are referred to as "as the weaker vessels". The weak cannot lead the strong, they have to be led. Even on the physical and natural side, women are very emotional beings. Right now, I am suffering from some very bad menstrual cramps (sorry for sharing), and I had to leave work early. Now, if I were the Pastor of my church, how effective could I be to my parishioners when I go through this every month and even on church days? Women who are going through menopause are very moody and sometimes irate women. Pregnant women cannot baptise members or jump out of bed at midnight to go pray for a sick/dying member. I believe GOd had our best interest at heart when He ordained men to carry His Word. Men are not the primary caretakers of the home. What happens to the children when Mommy is out of town doing a 1 week revival? I could go on and on , but here are some of the scriptures that I base my beliefs on .

I Timothy 2:11-13 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

I Timothy 3 offers the qualifications of a Bishop. How HE must have 1 wife and rule HIS house well, otherwise, HE cannot take care of the church.

I Corinthians 14:34-35 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Isaiah 3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman He said, I will greatly multiply they sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Jeremiah 31:22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the Lord hath created new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.

Numbers 27:16-17 Let the Lord, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,
Which may go out before them, and which may go in before them, and which may lead them out, and which may bring them in; that the congregation of the Lord be not as sheep which have no shepherd.

These are some scriptures that denotes that God has always used men in leadership roles and there were never a mention of women as leaders. Pastoring a church is a leadership role. Deborah judged Israel, but there was never a mention of God ordaining her in that position. As in those days there was no King and every one did what they thought was right in their own eyes. (Judges 17:6, 25.

This is my belief CEW. I'm sure you've probably had these scriptures given to you before and I'm sure you will have the others that I've heard before. But you asked and I obliged.
Good Nite!
MsGoody

[Guest]

Re: The Death Of A Church?

Okay (((CEW))) seet deh let me see you respond to the above um...many scriptures that um...clearly point out that women should not be pastors.

this one is going to be goooood...popcaaawn [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Diplomat]

Re: The Death Of A Church?

Originally posted by Jedi l:
Okay (((CEW))) seet deh let me see you respond to the above um...many scriptures that um...clearly point out that women should not be pastors.

Oh, the scriptures does not say that at all, and that is where much of the confusion stems from. One of the principles of Biblical interpretation is that a passage/verse cannot mean one thing outside of its context, and something else within. Some of the verses above fall into that category and therein lies the inherent danger in taking one verse in isolation and trying to attach it to a principle.

For example, a Bishop and a Pastor speaks to separate roles/offices within the Church and that some Churches use them interchangably does not change that fact. The verse in question therefore cannot be unilaterally applied to Pastors, because Pastors do not necessarily have to be married and can be either male or female. For a number of reasons it is advisable that s/he (Pastors) be, but there is nothing in the scriptures that say s/he must be.

Scriptures also have to understood in terms of Biblical tradition. The backdrop for the OT, and some of the NT, is a predonimantly partriarchal environment. Yes, God used men to lead, and He had both genders as Judges, but we the tearing down of the veil now means that ANYONE can be used of God in whatever position as the Holy Spirit sees fit.

this one is going to be goooood...popcaaawn [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Not at all. Its a matter of Biblical interpretation, and I have found it interesting that some people are unwilling to 'rightly divide the word of truth' to really see what the Holy Spirit is up to.

[Diplomat]

Re: The Death Of A Church?

msgoody2shoes: Thanks for the references, which as you so rightly pointed out, I have seen, read, and heard all kinds of stuff said about. In addition to my commments in the response to Jedi 1, let me just say that it is important for any student of the Bible to understand context, as any scripture outside of context, can be used to support just about any position.

We could debate this ad nasuem, but nothing would be achieved without objectivity and a willingness to understand the various passages in their context. Let me say however that 1 Corinthians 11:3 which speaks to order in the Church, has been inappropriately used to suppress women in some Churches. To properly understand this text, one need to understand what was going on in the Church and what Paul was trying to address. In its proper context, the issue Paul was addressing was how the women went about doing certain things. One commentator puts it this way:

"The thing he (Paul) reprehends is the woman's praying or prophesying uncovered, or the man's doing either covered, 1Co 11:4, 1Co 11:5. To understand this, it must be observed that it was a signification either of shame or subjection for persons to be veiled, or covered, in the eastern countries, contrary to the custom of ours, where the being bare-headed betokens subjection, and being covered superiority and dominion. And this will help us the better to understand, the reasons on which he grounds his reprehension.

1. The man that prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonoureth his head, namely, Christ, the head of every man (1Co 11:3), by appearing in a habit unsuitable to the rank in which God has placed him. Note, We should, even in our dress and habits, avoid every thing that may dishonour Christ. The woman, on the other hand, who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head, namely, the man, 1Co 11:3. She appears in the dress of her superior, and throws off the token of her subjection. She might, with equal decency, cut her hair short, or cut it close, which was the custom of the man in that age. This would be in a manner to declare that she was desirous of changing sexes, a manifest affectation of that superiority which God had conferred on the other sex. And this was probably the fault of these prophetesses in the church of Corinth. It was doing a thing which, in that age of the world, betokened superiority, and therefore a tacit claim of what did not belong to them but the other sex."

The issue was women who took it upon themselves to act out of place, because they also prayed and prophesied. God however has used, and continue to use women in positions of leadership.

I like 1 Corinthians 12:27,28 "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." Those giftings in the Church are not limited by gender.

[Guest]

Re: The Death Of A Church?

I Timothy 2:11-13 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

Paul wrote to Timothy with advice on how to better lead the church at Ephesus. False teachers threathened to undermine Paul's work there and Timothy was in a tough spot.
Timothy 2:11-13 Instuctions on Worship..........the difficulty with this view, however, is that elsewhere Paul recognizes the authority of women for teaching and evangelizing (Romans 16:1-3; Phil 4:2-3) To sort out the discrepancy, some think Paul was simply giving advice here on how Christians could accomodate themselves to imperfect cultural conditions. Timothy faced a situation where false teachers (probably church elders) were preying on women-young widows in particular. Restricting their public involvement in church would (a) dramatically undercut the support of the false teachers and (b) gain respect for the church in the Ephesian community at large.

[Diplomat]

Re: The Death Of A Church?

Applepie: So very true. Yet another reason it is important to understand the context; i.e. what was happening then.

[msgoody2shoes]

Re: The Death Of A Church?

Some choose, however, to take the scriptures for what they say and not for what a commentator or Biblical scholar has written up to say they meant. We can all say this and this was happening at that time, but it is not written in the scriptures at any time. Some say Paul wrote certain things because the women were out of order. Where did Paul say that was his reason?

There has never been anyone who could point out to me where Christ used any woman to carry His gospel, preach His Word or be appointed to any office in the church. As Jeremiah and Isaiah and Paul said, the women were out of order then and they are out of order now.

My topic was the death of the church, not whether women could Pastor a church. If there are any comments to that effect, please post them. I prefer not to debate who can/cannot Pastor the church. Thanks

[Diplomat]

Re: The Death Of A Church?

Originally posted by msgoody2shoes:
Some choose, however, to take the scriptures for what they say and not for what a commentator or Biblical scholar has written up to say they meant. We can all say this and this was happening at that time, but it is not written in the scriptures at any time. Some say Paul wrote certain things because the women were out of order. Where did Paul say that was his reason?

There has never been anyone who could point out to me where Christ used any woman to carry His gospel, preach His Word or be appointed to any office in the church. As Jeremiah and Isaiah and Paul said, the women were out of order then and they are out of order now.

My topic was the death of the church, not whether women could Pastor a church. If there are any comments to that effect, please post them. I prefer not to debate who can/cannot Pastor the church. Thanks

Frankly, if this reflects the prevailing attitude of some of the membership, I'm not surprised it is dying. You really have only one viable option and that is to leave the fellowship.

[Guest]

Re: The Death Of A Church?

Frankly, if this reflects the prevailing attitude of some of the membership, I'm not surprised it is dying. You really have only one viable option and that is to leave the fellowship.


I kinda think it will be difficult to find a church that will fill the desired specifications. Because honestly it may be easy to find a church which has a male pastor but might not necessarily cut against female pastors taking to the pulpit.

One thing I am happy for and that is even though some folks in my church hold to these same ideas my former pastor was adamant about teaching the bible in context and encouraging us to read, reread and use bible commentaries, and concordances to help us understand the meaning of what is being said. Furthermore I asked him plain out about female pastors and he asked me this simple question - "Show me where in the bible can you find such a thing?" Furthermore he pointed out to me that here on earth it is expedient for procreation that there be males and females but in heaven there are no genders.

But the law has always been an easier thing to embrace than grace. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[msgoody2shoes]

Re: The Death Of A Church?

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] Frankly, if this reflects the prevailing attitude of some of the membership, I'm not surprised it is dying. You really have only one viable option and that is to leave the fellowship.


I kinda think it will be difficult to find a church that will fill the desired specifications. Because honestly it may be easy to find a church which has a male pastor but might not necessarily cut against female pastors taking to the pulpit.

One thing I am happy for and that is even though some folks in my church hold to these same ideas my former pastor was adamant about teaching the bible in context and encouraging us to read, reread and use bible commentaries, and concordances to help us understand the meaning of what is being said. Furthermore I asked him plain out about female pastors and he asked me this simple question - "Show me where in the bible can you find such a thing?" Furthermore he pointed out to me that here on earth it is expedient for procreation that there be males and females but in heaven there are no genders.

But the law has always been an easier thing to embrace than grace. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [/qb]

Jedi1..fortunately, there is such a church and one that I love. Unfortunately, it is in Nashville, Tenn. and I have no desire to move there nor commute 4 hours one way for church services. Your former Pastor has told you a good thing. If we listen to every word that people say without searching the True Word, we will believe anything. I just have never read anywhere in the Bible where God, Jesus or anyone mentioned female Pastors/Bishops/Evangelist/Preachers, etc. Until I see it, I won't belive it, yes?
Good Nite.
MsGoody

[Guest]

Re: The Death Of A Church?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by msgoody2shoes:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb]

Jedi1..fortunately, there is such a church and one that I love. Unfortunately, it is in Nashville, Tenn. and I have no desire to move there nor commute 4 hours one way for church services.

So then I am correct then those types of churches are far and few between?

Your former Pastor has told you a good thing. If we listen to every word that people say without searching the True Word, we will believe anything. I just have never read anywhere in the Bible where God, Jesus or anyone mentioned female Pastors/Bishops/Evangelist/Preachers, etc. Until I see it, I won't belive it, yes?

Ms. Goody how are you my dear? First of all my intention is not for you to get upset, I don't believe it is CEW's intention to do so either.
My dear one of the worst mistakes that people make is to follow along blindly in the direction of either a culture, a religion, a teacher or a peer group, this is why my pastor was not afraid to encourage his congregation to read, re-read, check out the commentaries, the concordances and also listen to what the opposition is saying.

Never toss a thing aside till you examine it carefully from all sides. Christianity is a life long learning process, it is also a world view not just a religion. Simply put - we examine each and every idea using the Bible as our standard of measure to see if it holds up to God's TRUTH. If we donot have a good working knowledge of what the word says then we have a faulty meter or yardstick by which to measure anything which we come up against, including our own religious experience. In order to acquire a proper working knowledge of what the Word says we are each individually responsible to ourselves and to God to CHECK IT OUT FOR OURSELVES, not relying on what some one else said or what some pastor said. In other words we must get educated.

God says in His words "If anyone is without wisdom (lacks understanding) let him/her ask of the Lord and He will give it to him/her." (paraphrased) God will not withhold any good gift from us. He in otherwords wants us to know the truth. That is your responsibility no one elses. When you come out and say something that everyone else is in disagreement with that should send a signal to you to go back and read, re-read and do some homework. This takes time and effort but it is a requirement of God. God says "He takes no pleasure in ....?" Furthermore He also says "Get knowledge, get understanding and with all your getting get wisdom." In otherwords get it for yourself don't rely on anyone else to get it for you or else you may end up getting a 6 for a 9.

Now as to you not seeing any woman as a priest, evangelist or a minister in the Bible, may I suggest that it is perhaps because you have been short changing yourself and you have not been taking the time and effort to read with understanding. That could happen for several reasons:

1. Cultural upbringing i.e. where females are taught that they are inferior to men which you accept as truth.

2. Relying on someone or some group to educate you.

3. Denying the truth of what you read in order to remain in a certain peer group. In otherwords choosing to remain blind to the truth.

Regardless of the reason the choice is yours. But remember you owe it to God to get a good working knowledge of the Bible, and remember the word is very near you so that you cannot say that you didnot know a thing, there is no excuse particularly with the availability of information today. So my dear I would encourage you to start checking things out for yourself. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Diplomat]

Re: The Death Of A Church?

Jedi 1: Great advice

[WitchyOoman]

Re: The Death Of A Church?

MsGoody, while I certainly CAN NOT agree with you on the subject of female pastors... I will definitely pray for you, for you to find the right "spiritual home for you", and I will also pray for the congregation which you are leaving, too. It's a very hard thing to find oneslef forced to make such decisions! (((MsGoody)))

I am too tired, tonight, to address what you posted about those scriptures addressing male-only-clergy - and I may never bother to post my views on that, since you have stated so categorically that you are uninterested in discussing or hearing other viewpoint about the subject. After all, after that definitive a statement, it would merely be folly for me to try to engage you on that topic...

However, you may find it of interest to visit the thread I am about to start regarding the latest resolutions adopted (and defeated) at the 130th Annual COnvention of the Diocese of Newark (NJ) of the Episcopal Church of the United States of America this weekend. (I was a voting delegate from my own church, All Saints' Episcopal Church of Orange, NJ.)


In any event, my sister in Christ, I'll keep you in prayer, and I wish you the best. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[msgoody2shoes]

Re: The Death Of A Church?

Thank you very much W. Ooman. I appreciate your kind words and prayers.

Jedi1, no, I was not upset with either of your responses. I happen to believe that you have your convictions and I have mine. I do not need to re-read what I already am convicted of. There is no Biblical proof that women are to be ordained in the ministry and it has nothing to do with culture, what someone said, upbringings, or women being inferior to men. I happen to believe what I do and thanks for your input.
Good Nite.
MsGoody