Can you be Christian AND...

[WitchyOoman]

Re: Can you be Christian AND...

Originally posted by Sunmist:
[qb]Same way with Jews who feel that Christ was crucified as the son of God.. And there are Jewish people who are Christians as well.

Sun[/qb]

Not at all true. Jews absolutely DO NOT (unless one has formally converted to Christianity -- i.e. been baptized with water in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit) see the man we now refer to as Jesus as the son of God. Period. There are absolutely NOT "Jews who are Christians as well" -- unless you meant to say (and failed to clarify) that you are referring to what I just described: a conversion.

Is that what you meant to say, Sunmist? A formal conversion?

.
While I'm thinking about it, would you please clarify exactly what you mean by "Rasta man has much in common with the Jewish man when you compare their devotion to their women...mothers, daughters, sisters and lovers alike."?? Describe the 'devotion' you mean? Thanks.

Which 'constraints' might you mean, also? (Catholic 'constraints', that is) And, while you're at it, which of the many various Catholics do you mean?

Edited to fix a dreadful typo! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] SO sorry!! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[WitchyOoman]

Re: Can you be Christian AND...

Atticus, when you asked you original question ("Can you be Christian AND Rasta?") ... how were you defining "Christian"? In other words, what is YOUR particular definition of "Christian"?

I now we had a thread not too long ago about this... and I remember seeing several differing definitions there, but I don't recall seeing yours.

[kthydvs]

Re: Can you be Christian AND...

Originally posted by atticus:
[qb]Can you be Christian AND Rasta? Asian cultures accept that people can be "multi-religious"(?), that is one could be both Buddhist and Taoist.
There seems to be alot that Rastafarianism and Christianity have in common, but I am still learning about the Rasta way. Trying to sort it all out.... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [/qb]

"One body there is, one spirit, even as you were called in the one hope to which you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one GOD and father of all (persons), who is over all and through all and in all" Ephesians 4:4-6

[jaith]

Re: Can you be Christian AND...

I'll try this again....

http://messiandread.dubroom.org

[atticus]

Re: Can you be Christian AND...

WitcheyOoman
I guess I may not be really sure. I certainly have a hard time with the Ephesians quote about "...one faith". Even in what we know as Christainity, there are a myriad of faiths/sects.
I may be looking at pure fundementals. Jesus was the son of God, God and the Holy Spirit incarnate. I have long struggled with the defintition of Christian that requires attendance in a formal church. God is everywhere and in everything. The message that Bob Marley brought was one of peace and love that I find in the New Testament [img]/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] , but in very few of the mainstream Christian sects.
That is the one thing that has really caused me to follow the Rasta theology quest, the message of love for all people, as people and as of God. I haven't felt that message as strong before and the Rasta do not come off as some kind of cult like Krishnas, etc.. Not one rasta tried to convert me while I was in Jamaica! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
Therefore, it led me to the initial question I posted. I feel that the Christian religion I grew up with is right, but Rasta really colors in the framework....except that Haile Selassie thing. I know nothing about his teachings or theology. I just find it hard to believe that he was God on earth. Heck, David was not God on earth....hope this helps define wherefrom I come.
All input appreciated. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I might add that there is no doubt that God and Jah are one and the same in my mind. The love of Jah and the way Rasta speak of Jah is exactly how I feel about God, but never seem to find that in any mainstream religion...even my own.

[WitchyOoman]

Re: Can you be Christian AND...

Okay, fair 'nuff, atticus. At least you admit when you aren't sure about sintin.

I do hear you, regarding the splintering of the One Body (the original Church). I don't have the answers (I only wish I did, right?)...

Personally, I don't think know enough about Rastafarianism to say for sure... but what I DO understand about it tells me that one can't be Rasta AND Christian -- although I certainly know many Rastas who live a far more "Christian" lifestyle than many self-professed Christians. I only make this statement because a number of Rastas tell me that Rastas accept Haile Selassie as God Incarnate. If this is true, then they certainly cannot be Christian. If it's partially or fully false [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] ... *shrug* Also, if I understand correctly Rastafarians are not necessarily baptized with water in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. THAT is essential to being Christian.

If any of my information regarding Rastafarianism is false, then please feel free, anybody, to gently correct me.

There is no doubt in MY mind either, atticus, that God (the One that *I* acknowledge, serve, and worship; that of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) is Jah. I agree wholeheartedly with you on that!

So, atticus, since you do state yourself to be Trinitarian in belief... do you agree or disagree on the definition that *I* put forth as "Christian"? Or "is the jury still out" for you on that? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[atticus]

Re: Can you be Christian AND...

WitchyOoman,
First, thank you for your responses. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] I do understand what you are saying about what makes a Christian and I understand what you say keeps a Rasta from being Christian. I guess that maybe I do not put alot of credence in rituals....baptism is an important ritual for Christians, but I do not know about it being a defining ritual. As a possible further explanation, I believe strongly in the message of the Bible, but maybe not the detail of the Bible. Thus, I believe an unbaptised person can be acceptable to God. I wouldn't plan it that way, but circumstances could exist.
I definitely agree that a Rasta could not hold up Haile Selassie as THE embodiment of God on earth to the exclusion of Jesus and be considered Christian. In fact, I was glad to read someone post that not all Rasta believe that H.S. was God on earth.
Largely, I am enthralled at the commonalities I have found between the Rasta and Christian messages. However, I do know that many "brands" of Christianity would rebuke alot of Rasta belief, such as the evil of institutions. I am a different Chistian, eg. not fundamentalist. I would have never guessed the two would have such similar messages. I needed to hear others say that they are not, necessarily mutually exclusive. Now, how you go about practicing such a dual faith is completely beyond me at this point.
Do you think one could interface the two theologies into one spiritual faith????

[Sunmist22]

Re: Can you be Christian AND...

To utilize the best of both faiths and/or religions, remember a couple of things.. God did not write the bible, man did - so our questions will never be answered. God did not run wire fences, man did - so the restrictions or rules and regulations you feel you must practice are of your own choice. Are you sheep in a field following any sheppard?

I believe I can be Rasta and Christian because the most HIGH says my heart is pure and for HIM and my boundries are again, made by man not HIM. If I know and understand the TRINITY, and the Holy Spirit resides in me, and I value human life, all life, and know that Love is the ONLY reason we are here.... then no ONE thing can be right.

From Africa we came - the majority of people of color were Muslims, we were brought to America and abroad and Christianity was ingrained in us for ONE reason, to instill in us the need to conform to Slavery because it is writtien in the bible a slave shall obey his master and be "rewarded" in heaven.

"so much things to say", Bob said, "I'll never forget no way, they crucified Jesus Christ", it is written, it was done. But can you truly believe EVERYTHING in the bible to be proper or right?? There is Profound good in the Book of life, must be, we have solid evidence that Love/Life/Honesty/Charity/Humility/Unselfishness are the ways to endure and make peace in this "world", however their is much that can be taken away from the book as well....

Religion is man made, faith is of God/Spirit/Love

Peace

Sun (**If you are wondering (probably not) I am a child of the 70s**)

[Sunmist22]

Re: Can you be Christian AND...

Post script to Atticus and WitchyOoman,

I know I have strayed from the topic at hand and technically, Witchy is absolutely right. You can not be Rasta and a Christian when adhering to the "rules and regulations" of either religion.

I too struggled for many years with the similarities of both factions. I too went to christian churches and found more "proper" daily living exhibited by the Rasta man. Not just on Sundays from 11:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m.

My point is only this - we are so blessed with the fortune of our own "will". To add, subtract, etc. as we see is right for our own lives.

I hope you understand my thoughts...

peace and blessings.

Sunmist..

[atticus]

Re: Can you be Christian AND...

Sunmist- I appreciate your thoughts. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Sounds like you have traveled already down a road I have just begun. You have enlightened me a bit. I do not know that I agree that the Africans brought west into slavery were Muslims, but there is no doubt that the "good book" has been used by a myriad of groups, etc. to support their own views and downpress others. Anything touched by man is tainted.
You speak to my thoughts when you note that the Rasta Mon lives God's love everyday and Christians tend to just "go to church". Of course there are exceptions.
I am glad to hear from you...acknowledging that you see how Rasta and Christianity dovetail.

Of whom do you refer when you speak of H.I.M.? His Imperial Majesty Haile Selassie? Or God?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Can you be Christian AND...

Originally posted by Fledgist:
Shortly before his death, Bob Marley was baptised in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. He did not, as far as I can make out, cease to identify himself as a Rastafarian.)

Well that in the Great Tradition of "DeathBed Christianization" like Emperor Constantine`s founder, benefactor and patron of the Christian Religion

(There were consequences of this decision. One is that at the state funeral, the Roman Catholic archbishop sat on the platform as the guest of the Ethiopian Metropolitan of the Americas. As Archbishop Carter left the National Arena, I, standing four feet away, heard him say to his chaplain, Ken MockYen, 'At least he died a Christian.')

So you was there too?
I was in an Official Capacity, not saying what, even though as a dread growing up, I swore not to attend any funerals.

I guess a lot of people, including Rastas broke some kinda vows at that funeral.
In fact a new expression was coined "Big Lacka Bob Marley Funeral"
I suppose Willie Hogarth and the other Dons Funeral outdid that both in the number of people and number of Christian Ministers pressed upon to deliver the ertswhile sinners` unto God.....Peace

[Fledgist]

Re: Can you be Christian AND...

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
Shortly before his death, Bob Marley was baptised in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. He did not, as far as I can make out, cease to identify himself as a Rastafarian.)

Well that in the Great Tradition of "DeathBed Christianization" like Emperor Constantine`s founder, benefactor and patron of the Christian Religion

(There were consequences of this decision. One is that at the state funeral, the Roman Catholic archbishop sat on the platform as the guest of the Ethiopian Metropolitan of the Americas. As Archbishop Carter left the National Arena, I, standing four feet away, heard him say to his chaplain, Ken MockYen, 'At least he died a Christian.')

So you was there too?
I was in an Official Capacity, not saying what, even though as a dread growing up, I swore not to attend any funerals.

I guess a lot of people, including Rastas broke some kinda vows at that funeral.
In fact a new expression was coined "Big Lacka Bob Marley Funeral"
I suppose Willie Hogarth and the other Dons Funeral outdid that both in the number of people and number of Christian Ministers pressed upon to deliver the ertswhile sinners` unto God.....Peace[/qb]

I was there as a reporter in the press section.

[Sunmist22]

Re: Can you be Christian AND...

Blessings Atticus,

I speak of God as HIM - There can only be one (this is my belief).

I did some research regarding the West and the origins of "religions", the big three, Judism, Christianity, and Muslin were all spun from the same thread.

Rome and the principal of many Gods came first, second it was an Egyptian King who determimed there must only be one GOD, he in turn forced his belief on the people during his tenure on the throne. It was reverted back to many Gods after his demise, however the seed had been planted.

Christianity was born from this seed (of course all of this over thousands of years), via the Jewish path. Then the final introduction of Muslim as a separate, yet parallel force. Of course the Christian seed was born from Judism over time as well.

If you study the West, you will find that the majority of a number of countries were and are Muslim.

It is factual, there were Muslim Kings and Princes who were captured and brought to the East. Once their identities discovered, and their nobility declared, they were allowed to return to their homeland.

I will locate the materials I reviewed and pass along..

Atticus - Gaining this knowledge allowed me on a personal level to "blend" the ingredients of my Faith. Due totally to the beginning source of the original thread.

Your inclination to feel comfortable with two religious based methodologies is not only practical, it is natural due in part to the origins of both...

I truly feel this is what the Rasta man has done. Taken a natural path to Rightousness and Truth. Not forced or correrced(sp), just a natural following. Kind of like a Sunflower finds its way to the Sun. Seen?

I have learned the blessings of this world, the world is a banquet, a variety of pleasant and unpleasantness. Take the good, discard the bad, we are blessed to be able to do so.

Have a GREAT day. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Peace

Sunmist

[WitchyOoman]

Re: Can you be Christian AND...

Atticus, please don't misunderstand me: I ALSO DO think that "an unbaptised person can be acceptable to God"; in fact, its integral to the Anglican faith (mine), as well as the faith of all of the Orthodox Churches! The Orthodox, Catholic (remember, I said "Catholic", not "Roman Catholic", as the Roman Church is not in full agreememnt with every other Catholic CHurch of the world!) and Anglican faith is that God will offer Salvation to whom He chooses, to whomever it pleases Him to do so, regardless of whether or not those persons ever accepted Jesus in their lifetimes. God's Mysteries are exactly that: mysteries!

I, too "wouldn't plan it that way"... as you said. However, it can (and will) happen that way in certain cases.

I am no fundie, and I have little patience and no respect for them, myself. Mind you, I'm not slamming anyone specific here on the Boards... I am, however, entitled to my own private opinions. And this is merely my own private opinion.

Now... that all said... atticus, you say that you don't put a lot of credence in ritual/s, BUT, Jesus himslef told us to do certain things, and those rituals ought to be followed to the letter! He must have had a reason to say such things as "Do this...", etc. That's a direct command. COme to it, so has God Himself also given certain direct command orders to "Do this... or that... or Do not do ___". Some rituals are that important. Baptism is a ritual that (IMHO) IS "that important" in that it is what brings us from Death into everlasting Life, what binds us to the One Body, etc. (Go read the liturgy in the BCP for further elaboration on that issue.)

Now... SUnmist, I would greatly appreciate it if you did not put words into my mouth that aren't there! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] I DID NOT say that any single individual could not be both Rasta and Christian! Please either point directly to the words where I said that... or else retract you statement in your "post script" above!!

If one has been baptized (at some point in their belief) with water in the name of the Father, SOn, and Holy Spirit, AND if one espouses Rastafarian bleiefs (unless that absolutely requires beliving the Ethiopian prince as the Saviour), then one certainly CAN be both. If the definition of "Rastafarian" means that he was the Son of God... then one can't be both.

Besides, sunmist, you never answered my quesions, so I'm asking again:

would you please clarify exactly what you mean by "Rasta man has much in common with the Jewish man when you compare their devotion to their women...mothers, daughters, sisters and lovers alike."?? Describe the 'devotion' you mean? Thanks.

Which 'constraints' might you mean, also? (Catholic 'constraints', that is) And, while you're at it, which of the many various Catholics do you mean?

Perhaps you'll answer these?

[atticus]

Re: Can you be Christian AND...

Sunmist,
Alot of what you said echos what I learned when I took a philosophy of religion course in college. It really brought home the common origins of the world's major religions. I learned to appreciate Buddhism greatly through that course. But I digress. It has amazed me ever since that course, how ignorant the vast majority of people are about the origins of their own religions. (I am obviously no scholar, either)
And Peace be with you also, Sunmist. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

WitcheyOoman ,
I never took anything in your enlightening posts as a slam against anyone. It doesn't seem to be your nature!
I really do agree with you on the importance of rituals. I believe they can and do provide a meaningful function in the practice of one's faith. But, as you said you understand, they do not necessarily define the sincerity of one's faith. I have long admired the Anglican faith, just never really experienced it. I am Presbyterian by birth. For years, though, I have been bothered by the major churches as institutions. There rings true alot of Bob Marley's derision toward institutions. It makes me uncomfortable to see a church of whatever denomination building multi-million dollar facilities when so much money could really have a lasting, positive effect on so many lives in witness to the blessings and love of God. I think there is a reason that Jesus did not manfest his wonders and teachings within the confines of the institutional churches or synagogues of his day. In fact, as I recall, there are Biblical references against the institutionalization of faith in the Living God. We now have ministers, priests and rabbis that fall directly into Jesus' statement that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven.
The Rasta really seems to hit home with my thoughts and feelings set out above. They live their faith everyday with everyone they meet and do not rely on a weekly church visit to maintain their faith. The concept of "One Love", while found in the New Testament (in so many words) is not practiced or adhered too by todays major denominations. That concept and the practice of it I found in Jamdung is what initially endeared Ratsa to my heart and began my quest to reconcile my existing faith with this new wonderful one.
And Peace to you, WitcheyOoman
Irie