The Joy of Poverty

[jedi]

Re: The Joy of Poverty

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb] Jedi: I read the initial post twice. Perhaps the "problem" is with the title of the thread? [/qb]

Ok.... but it seems to me that your entire response was based on the title of the thread because there is no way you could have given the response you did after reading the whole thing. Tell me what else did you disagree with?

[jedi]

Re: The Joy of Poverty

Originally posted by RollinCalf:
[qb] "Another way to look at it is that it is in the interest of affluent/rich people that the poor are content with poverty. Otherwise, the poor will overthrow and attack the rich, so it could be seen as in society's interest that the poor be happy in their "pauperized" state - maintenance of the "status quo" so to speak."

Which is why no Third World country was ever colonised without the help of the church. [/qb]

Another one who did not read this in it's entirety.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: The Joy of Poverty

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb] Jedi: And then when you die what happens to those riches? Or is it more desirable to live a short and boutiful life on earth and afterwards leave it to spend an eternity in hell. This is what this is about TG putting God before your possessions because in reality you own nothing.
[/qb]

I hope you are not accusing me of not reading the entire piece. I read it more than once as well, I did not count.

However again why pre-suppose material wealth is amoral?
That life on earth is considered short and the unknown of Heaven of hell is forever?
Death here on earth cancels all debts, same for the rich and same for the poor, so the matter is not what happens to the wealth when you die.

Again the satement made by the title and the body of the piece determines that rich people are unhappy and poor people are suppose to be happy, especially since approval is granted by this god.

[Ephratahe]

Re: The Joy of Poverty

Jedi: I think I understand your premise. I believe that as the Lord's children it is not His desire for us to suffer. When He blesses us in material things beyond what we could ever ask or hope for, it is important that we do not forget Who has bestowed such blessings on us. If we in fact value our blessings over a more meaningful relationship with the Lord, then no matter how much we have or own, we are spiritually bankrupt. Nothing is inherently wrong with wealth or money, however. Money is not evil, it is the love of money that creates serious problems in an individual's life. Not all of the followers of Christ were poor. Owing to Paul's education and experience I am inclined to believe that Paul may have come from a very influential family. Additionally, the 'borrowed' grave that housed the body of Christ until His resurrection was owned by a wealthy individual.

Remembering the Lord's statement that it is easier for a camel to enter through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven is not a condemnation of all those who are wealthy...the Lord is not telling us to go out and make ourselves poor. I read this passage as a direct encouragement to not let the material things of this world, even all the wealth we may acquire, blind us to the One who has supplied all our blessings, and to whom all blessings, glory, and honour are due. God bless.

P.S. Poverty may not be a blessing, but the Lord is able to use the most dire circumstances to draw individuals closer to His bosom. Many individuals who have enjoyed a close walk with the Lord are often those who lack much. Considering the example of Job (bearing in mind that Job's circumstances were a direct result of satan's accusation against God), though Job lost all that he had, all that he valued (not more than God, however), he did not curse God - he questioned, but did not curse. In his moment of grief and poverty he was able to approach the Lord on a different, more basic level. It is possible that Job enjoyed a much closer and stronger relationship with the Lord following his experience.

[Guest]

Re: The Joy of Poverty

Originally posted by fOrTyLeGz:

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5:3)

I never understood what Jesus means here, when he talks of the "poor in spirit"? Why not just say "Blessed are the poor,..." if he is talking about being impovereshed?

fOrTyLeGz, 'poor in spirit' here means humbling yourself to God and being totally dependent on Him.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: The Joy of Poverty

Originally posted by ephratahe:
Jedi:Remembering the Lord's statement that it is easier for a camel to enter through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven is not a condemnation of all those who are wealthy...

so why assume that it would be harder for the rich?

P.S. Poverty may not be a blessing, but the Lord is able to use the most dire circumstances to draw individuals closer to His bosom. Many individuals who have enjoyed a close walk with the Lord are often those who lack much...

I am pretty sure that is well designed. If you are standing at the church steps giving out handouts along with the scriptures telling the people that the poor are the chosen ones, would that not attract every poor person within earshot?

[jedi]

Re: The Joy of Poverty

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb] Jedi: And then when you die what happens to those riches? Or is it more desirable to live a short and boutiful life on earth and afterwards leave it to spend an eternity in hell. This is what this is about TG putting God before your possessions because in reality you own nothing.
[/qb]

I hope you are not accusing me of not reading the entire piece. I read it more than once as well, I did not count.

However again why pre-suppose material wealth is amoral?
That life on earth is considered short and the unknown of Heaven of hell is forever?
Death here on earth cancels all debts, same for the rich and same for the poor, so the matter is not what happens to the wealth when you die.

Again the satement made by the title and the body of the piece determines that rich people are unhappy and poor people are suppose to be happy, especially since approval is granted by this god. [/qb]

Tuff Gong, one thing stands out from what you have said, " this god" If you are not a believer in my God then what I have said will make no sense to you. However if you can grasp the concept that this God owns the very breath in your body then you will understand that he is more important than all your material possessions and money because he owns the greater thing - your life. Therefore on that premise we who believe in Him worship Him above all that we own. He on the other hand has not withheld anything from us not even the life of His son Jesus Christ whom He sent to die in our place so that we may know riches beyond the finite human mind to imagine. Everlasting life with Him. But again all this is only if you can grasp that concept. "But seek His kingdom and these things will be given to you as well" Things meaning material things, the things that men lust for and kill for.

[Ephratahe]

Re: The Joy of Poverty

Hi Tuff Gong

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:
[qb]

so why assume that it would be harder for the rich?

Ephratahe: It is sometimes easier for us to trust in our wealth (or the almighty dollar) than to recognize our own spiritual need. Thus, this is not necessarily an assumption. Everyday we are bombarded with news of entertainers who have gone beyond the boundaries of morality to either explore or experiment with some new thing. They believe that their wealth is able to purchase that elusive thing they seek, failing to recognize thier spiritual poverty. As I previously stated, however, wealth (when rightly understood, valued and utilized) is not wrong; when it is inappropriately valued, however, it can lead to corruption.

I am pretty sure that is well designed. If you are standing at the church steps giving out handouts along with the scriptures telling the people that the poor are the chosen ones, would that not attract every poor person within earshot? [/qb][/QUOTE]

Ephratahe:Thankfully this is not the case, but that salvation is opened to all who believe [img]/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] .

[jedi]

Re: The Joy of Poverty

Originally posted by ephratahe:
[qb] Jedi: I think I understand your premise. I believe that as the Lord's children it is not His desire for us to suffer. When He blesses us in material things beyond what we could ever ask or hope for, it is important that we do not forget Who has bestowed such blessings on us. If we in fact value our blessings over a more meaningful relationship with the Lord, then no matter how much we have or own, we are spiritually bankrupt. Nothing is inherently wrong with wealth or money, however. Money is not evil, it is the love of money that creates serious problems in an individual's life. Not all of the followers of Christ were poor. Owing to Paul's education and experience I am inclined to believe that Paul may have come from a very influential family. Additionally, the 'borrowed' grave that housed the body of Christ until His resurrection was owned by a wealthy individual.

Remembering the Lord's statement that it is easier for a camel to enter through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven is not a condemnation of all those who are wealthy...the Lord is not telling us to go out and make ourselves poor. I read this passage as a direct encouragement to not let the material things of this world, even all the wealth we may acquire, blind us to the One who has supplied all our blessings, and to whom all blessings, glory, and honour are due. God bless.

P.S. Poverty may not be a blessing, but the Lord is able to use the most dire circumstances to draw individuals closer to His bosom. Many individuals who have enjoyed a close walk with the Lord are often those who lack much. Considering the example of Job (bearing in mind that Job's circumstances were a direct result of satan's accusation against God), though Job lost all that he had, all that he valued (not more than God, however), he did not curse God - he questioned, but did not curse. In his moment of grief and poverty he was able to approach the Lord on a different, more basic level. It is possible that Job enjoyed a much closer and stronger relationship with the Lord following his experience. [/qb]

"What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ" (Phillipians 3:8)

(((Ephratahe))) Did you ever lose a large sum of money? I did and I am not proud of how I reacted before God. Yesterday I was very distressed and angry. This morning I awakened before 5am and the thought of that piece I had written back in November of last year came to my mind. God has brought me up short and reminded me that He is the supplier of all my needs and all that I own, and never ever am I to ever grieve the loss of possessions, for He has and He will continue to provide for me until the day I die. But He is to be my only possession and no thing else.
But I guess that is a concept that is hard for some here to understand.

[jedi]

Re: The Joy of Poverty

Originally posted by fOrTyLeGz:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:


The Joy of Poverty

In my entire life, I have never heard someone tie those two words, "joy" and "poverty" together. I can only assume that you know nothing about being impoverished.

Originally posted by Jedi:

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5:3)

I never understood what Jesus means here, when he talks of the "poor in spirit"? Why not just say "Blessed are the poor,..." if he is talking about being impovereshed? [/qb]

Because He is not talking about the poor. Poor in spirit simply means having a spirit of humility and and a contrite heart. Having the blessedness of possessing nothing even though you may have enormous wealth. Before God you are nothing for God does not consider your possessions (they in reality are His) He considers your attitude towards Him and you heart condition, in otherwords where do your true affections lie.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: The Joy of Poverty

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb] . "But seek His kingdom and these things will be given to you as well" Things meaning material things, the things that men lust for and kill for. [/qb]

Really I know more wars and killings have been by the religious and about religion regardless if money was involved or not, that is, the wars were about just beliefs!

[Ephratahe]

Re: The Joy of Poverty

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]
(((Ephratahe))) Did you ever lose a large sum of money? I did and I am not proud of how I reacted before God. Yesterday I was very distressed and angry. This morning I awakened before 5am and the though of that peice I had written back in November of last year came to my mind. God has brought me up short and reminded me that He is the supplier of all my needs and all that I own, and never ever am I to ever grieve the loss of possessions, for He has and He will continue to provide for me until the day I die. But He is to be my only possession and no thing else.
But I guess that is a concept that is hard for some here to understand. [/qb]

I'm truly sorry for your loss [img]/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] . I can imagine how difficult this must be for you, but the Lord can use even this for His glory - only let Him. Be comforted and encouraged to know that your loss is also felt by the Lord; He knows your every need before you even voice them, and He will answer before you call. May the Lord richly reward you spiritually in this time of difficulty. God bless.

[fOrTyLeGz]

Re: The Joy of Poverty

Originally posted by fOrTyLeGz:

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5:3)

I never understood what Jesus means here, when he talks of the "poor in spirit"? Why not just say "Blessed are the poor,..." if he is talking about being impovereshed?

Originally posted by Compry:

fOrTyLeGz, 'poor in spirit' here means humbling yourself to God and being totally dependent on Him.

Poor in spirit="totally dependent on Him?" No way! How do you get there?

[jedi]

Re: The Joy of Poverty

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb] . "But seek His kingdom and these things will be given to you as well" Things meaning material things, the things that men lust for and kill for. [/qb]

Really I know more wars and killings have been by the religious and about religion regardless if money was involved or not, that is, the wars were about just beliefs! [/qb]

Hmm! do you really believe that?

[Queen]

Re: The Joy of Poverty

Pardon this brief interruption:


Ephratahe & Jedi, please to step over in the "For Some Single Ladies" thread. Sistagirl and I will give you guys until 1:00 p.m. to read the lengthy article so we can start a discussion. unu try unu best and hurry up.