to many Gods (inspired by everyone)

[rebelgirl]

Re: to many Gods (inspired by everyone)

Thank you for your input musa and servant haven't read your posts yet but just wanted to show my appreciation that you took the time to respond [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[coffeegyal]

Re: to many Gods (inspired by everyone)

See, Reb, this is why I have to respect the religious and philosophical beliefs of everyone on this board. With a world this vast, and cultures developing in such different environments, it just doesn't seem possible to me that one line of belief (a part of the whole) is the only answer. None that I've experienced has felt like the complete picture. I'm not saying that I have any kind of authority, or that I have the complete picture myself, just that the "one answer" philosophy doesn't ring true for me.

What I find fascinating is the adaptations you see in cultures that have a traditional/aboriginal belief system into which one of the "sky" religions is introduced. Even when we call it the same religion (say, Christianity in Barrow and Christianity in North Carolina), the people who believe have their own cultural twists on it. Even the same religion doesn't look the same in different places. So then the idea of all religions being part of the answer just seems an extension of that.

[rebelgirl]

Re: to many Gods (inspired by everyone)

Hey yah CG long time no see. How's the frozen north treating you?

Adaptations are varied.

kinda off track but inspired by your thoughts It's interesting to me how Christianity was incorporated in traditional beliefs here. the whole thing about the great creator wasn't really part of the belief system until Christianity came here to the coast, then through conversion and loss of traditional beliefs when natives rebelled and tried to return to their roots a new religion was born one that put a great sky god at the head of what had been a belief system with many spirits contributing to creation.

I don't think there is only one, but then I'm not a believer really at all, but if i were I think I would be more along the beliefs of Kimoni and you.

[Bobbi]

Re: to many Gods (inspired by everyone)

Hello everyone. Really a privilege to be able to share with you guys.

As a christian myself I have always found it interesting how persons of different religious persuasions argue over what is considered to be truth. I think that one of the best ways to reveal truth is to live what you believe to the fullest. There has to be an element of sincerity which can hardly go un-noticed by the person professing what he thinks truth is.

There can be no doubt that the various types of believers from different religions have in place some set of definitive guidelines as to what they think or believe truth is. Truth must have some degree of standards to it so as to prevent the possibility of persons being decieved into believing something that resembles the truth.

I think you all can agree with me on that point, that very often persons can be led to believe a counterfeit rather than the truth itself.

So the key question is this, how can one really know the truth? The answer to that just by looking at the question, makes the answer hard to come by, because its too general. So going back to my original point, there has to be more definitive areas of the general truth that when broken down in parts can be understood for what each part stands for, so that the bigger picture will not be so obscure.

Mark you the truth is out there somewhere, irrespective of how we carry on as a people with different beliefs. Its only a matter of time before its found by someone or a group of persons. But finding it will depend on our ability to be able to hold and handle it. Will we be able to handle it when we find it?

Are we prepared to make the sacrifices for it?

One thing I am certain of is that God is willing for us to find it, but He has to prepare our minds to recieve it too.

Bless.

[accepted77]

Re: to many Gods (inspired by everyone)

Originally posted by rebel:
[qb] I guess the most entertaining part for me was each groups conviction (and evidence) that their belief was the right-est one.
this lead me back to think on Kimoni's post where he sort of believes that they are all right/the same thing/wrong (syncretic thought).[/qb]

Rebel,

In reading your post I am moved to present a breif summary of the postmodernism world view.

breifly

Postmodernism opposes all claims to universality and totality, preferring diversity and local social "truths."
Postmodernism dethrones reason as the sole determiner of truth. Emotion and intuition also have their value in this endeavor.

Postmodernism denies that knowledge is objective, and that the knower is a passive observer. It is maintained, rather, that all knowledge is historically, relationally, and personally conditioned. Reality is not "out there" waiting to be discovered, but is relative, indeterminate, and participatory.13 The knower is actively involved in the knowing process, bringing to the activity certain presuppositions that color what the knower comes to "know."

The postmodern epistemology rests on two assumptions:
1. Reality is a construction of the mind which is useful but not objectively or universally true; humans lack the ability to step outside of their particular vantage point to view reality (in this latter tenant postmodernism reflects the thinking of Locke and Hume).14
Knowledge and truth are not universal realities to which all can arrive.

While there is a sense in which there is a world "out there" (in that it is not an illusion) that we experience, our knowledge of that world does not truly correspond with it.

There is no true description of the way the world "really is."15

There can be no objective world because the postmodern ethos rejects the realist concept of knowledge. Rather, we construct reality by the concepts we bring to the world we encounter.16
It is not possible to view our world from the view from nowhere, as an unbiased observer, gaining a bird's-eye view of reality.

There is no privileged vantage point from which anyone can claim to view reality/truth.17

We bring to our world our pre-conditioned understandings, and what we "see" reflects our own particular pre-understandings more than it does reality.

2.Truth does not exist.

What we find in the world is a host of conflicting viewpoints and interpretations, and linguistically formed worlds, all of which are equally invalid, and thus equally valid.

The only thing that might make one viewpoint preferable over another is the pragmatics of such a view.18

Pragmatism is center in the mind of those who hold to a postmodern worldview.

The question foremost in their mind is not, "Is it true?," but rather, "What does it do?," or "What is the outcome?".19

The only valid truth for postmodern adherents is the local narrative of a particular society. Truth is socially conditioned, thus our understanding of truth is conditioned by the community in which we find ourselves.

While truth is not universal, postmodernism does not relativize truth to that of each individual, but rather to that of each community.

Truth is cultural, and each person participates in that truth.

Seeing that there are many cultures, there are many truths.

The postmodern worldview is thoroughly pluralistic. Not only does it deny the possibility of having a bird's-eye, unbiased view of reality/truth, but denies the very existence of a unified reality/truth.

Both our perceptions of truth and the essence of truth are relative.20

Reality is a human construct determined by the group which guides and even dictates social life, mores, and values. As a result postmodernism has abandoned the Enlightenment quest for a grasp of an objective, unified reality.

source
Now to your questions

[qb]Some questions this made me think about for everyone

1. What if they are all the same?
I mean what if when you die, or meet God you find out no one particular belief system was entirely correct, and that all of them were true to some degree and that reward for belief in God wasn't just restricted to you particular brand of God?
-what would you think, say, or reflect upon how you lived your life?[/qb]

I will not speak for the muslims or Hindus or any other religion, I will speak of what I know of the God I serve.

He said

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Isa 44:7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.
Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

A few weeks aback Mutty and Kimioni posted the notion of a council of elder gods, the elohim, their claims that Yahweh was the God of Isreal only and that these elder Gods created adomi (man) was much debated and probally is saved in the archives.

Not withstanding, the first and last reference made of God above, places God outside time, for in infinite time there can be no first or last there is always first -1 or last+1 so to be first and last means an existence outside time, hence there can only be one first and last.

In like manner there cannot be two truths, truth must be exclusive, there can only be one truth.

Therefore if this God is found to be one of other Gods he is a liar and therefore his truth cannot be trusted. None of his truth, he is not worthy to be anyone's God.

But God exclusive claim to truth and first and last means all other Gods are hence excluded if you choose to accept his truth.

The God of the Bible does make such a claim, like wise his son makes a more punishing claim

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[qb]2.What if god told you this tomorrow?
-And that you then had the freedom to choose your means of worship?
-would you change, choose a different system more liberal or more interesting?

-What if the only punishment from God that would banish you from heaven was belief that yours was the only true religion (arrogance)?
- what would you change about how you conduct yourself or practice your faith? [/qb]

Answer.

The christian God cannot say this he have already played his hand by declaring his word is truth and life,

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

[wonbyone]

Re: to many Gods (inspired by everyone)

How about a few questions inspired by the questions? If a Christian accepts other gods is he/she a true Christian? Similarly what if a Christian BELIVER later rejects God? Is that even possible? What is wrong with the belief that Christ is the Messiah? If I (we) are wrong what harm am I (are we) doing? If I (we) tremble in the face of those that would challenge me (us)with ridicule or even (as happened here) physical harm for my (our)beliefs do I (we)truly believe? If I (we)allowed the many lies that are told about Christians to go unanswered what sort of faithful am I (are we)? What sort of human being for that matter? If one is an atheist than why does it drive you so crazy that someone can dare to believe?

The reason that few chose to answer is that a believer has already gone through the possibilities and has dismissed them...which is the essence of Christianity. Through free will, I might add! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[wonbyone]

Re: to many Gods (inspired by everyone)

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[wonbyone]

Re: to many Gods (inspired by everyone)

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[wonbyone]

Re: to many Gods (inspired by everyone)

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[Reggae plus]

Re: to many Gods (inspired by everyone)

Well of course no one religion is anywhere near correct. The undeniable proof is found in the endless discrepancies and arguments. At the same time the similarities speak to our limited human imagination and how much the 'composers' of the various forms of religion believed we would 'swallow'.

But then, as I said, we are mere humans and God [The Creator...The Ruler of the Heavens and Earth] never was, is, or will be.

We are limited by our very insignificance, which we misread and believe to be meaningful.

Oh yeah? Move Jupiter. Too hard? Too distant? Slow the rotation of the earth. Too much for you still? Cause the transformation of carbon dioxide to oxgen to cease by using your will.

Can't do it?

Human.

When you figure that out...and only then...you might be on your way to the next step in terms of your own actual evolution. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[Kimoni]

Re: to many Gods (inspired by everyone)

Originally posted by ReggaePlus:
[qb] Well of course no one religion is anywhere near correct. The undeniable proof is found in the endless discrepancies and arguments. At the same time the similarities speak to our limited human imagination and how much the 'composers' of the various forms of religion believed we would 'swallow'.

But then, as I said, we are mere humans and God [The Creator...The Ruler of the Heavens and Earth] never was, is, or will be.

We are limited by our very insignificance, which we misread and believe to be meaningful.

Oh yeah? Move Jupiter. Too hard? Too distant? Slow the rotation of the earth. Too much for you still? Cause the transformation of carbon dioxide to oxgen to cease by using your will.

Can't do it?

Human.

When you figure that out...and only then...you might be on your way to the next step in terms of your own actual evolution. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [/qb]

APPLAUSE!!!

[rebelgirl]

Re: to many Gods (inspired by everyone)

I have very little time to reply right now, but very interesting response. I am looking forward to discussing them with everyone [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[sistagirl]

Re: to many Gods (inspired by everyone)

Originally posted by rebel:
-what if they are all the same? i mean what if when you die, or meet God you find out no one particular belief system was entirely correct, and that all of them were true to some degree and that reward for belief in God wasn't just restricted to you particular brand of God?
-what would you think, say, or reflect upon how you lived your life?

I wouldn't think anything. I try and live my life based on MY beliefs. I don't judge others beliefs.

-what if god told you this tomorrow?
-And that you then had the freedom to choose your means of worship?
-would you change, choose a different system more liberal or more interesting?

If God told me this tomorrow I would change nothing. I gain so much in the way that I worship and fellowship and learn and I know that I would be stripped of every joy I have if it was taken away

-What if the only punishment from God that would banish you from heaven was belief that yours was the only true religion (arrogance)?

- what would you change about how you conduct yourself or practice your faith?

Well the God I serve never changes and He said that he that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36 .

[rebelgirl]

Re: to many Gods (inspired by everyone)

ah Tim sticky button I presume [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

thank you sistagirl, Tim, Bobbi, accepted, r+

One thing I've noticed by going over the answewrs here is that many seem unwilling to suspend their belief and pretend for a moment that the last question were true. I'm curious why that is.

I'm not implying by asking the question that what your bible says isn't true but merely asking a hypothetical question about what if it isn't, and what if believeing there is only one truth was the one of the only punishable sins in gods view.

I was more interested in what you as individuals think on the matter rather than what the bible says, although I don't mind you posting words from the bible, however I was more hoping to stimulate your imagination. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

It wasn't meant to be a koan servant [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

thank you again I've got a couple other things I'm hinking of that I will post later.

[wonbyone]

Re: to many Gods (inspired by everyone)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rebel:
[QB] ah Tim sticky button I presume [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
Sure hope not! Locked up server problem and my impatience caused the duplicates.

One thing I've noticed by going over the answewrs here is that many seem unwilling to suspend their belief and pretend for a moment that the last question were true. I'm curious why that is.

QUOTE]

Rebel it is not so easy to suspend ones beliefs. Several years back it would have been quite a simple thing. However, although my life became less complicated through faith it is very difficult to "revoke" those beliefs even as a "what if" scenario. This is coming from a person who questions EVERYTHING. Who challeges the norm. From someone who will not back down unless compelling evidence is shown. AND...from someone who researches, reads, discusses and analyzes whatever subject may be at hand.

At one time entertaining such "what if" thoughts would allow doubt that my faith was real to creep in. That is not the case today. In MY mind it is a matter of BEING faithful. Perhaps it is really not much different from being a staunch non-believer. After all, it is a thin line between not believing and believing. A VERY thin one.

It would be interesting to hear from the other side of that line. What if those people are wrong? What if the New Covenant IS the way? It should be easier for playing the "what If" scenario because there is no faith to revoke.

The Left Behind series of books by Tim Lahaye and Jerry Jenkins would be interesting reading for those asking the "what if" question.