Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Originally posted by Dr.Dudd:
[qb] Here we see that your question is one of degree and not of objection. When the evidence is provided and looked it will be seen that both Men engaged in acts against the people of Jamaica that patriots would not engage in.

Consider this however when Michael Manlie was in power he and his secret cabinet including PJoke Patterson, David Coore, and Keble Munn decided they needed to lock up a few labourites and critics of their style of Government and the Blindaga was about to embarrass Manlie over allegations that he gave a gun to a fifteen time convicted man because the man bought to Manlie by D. K. Duncan offered to spy on the Labourites.

All of this led to a State of Emergency to summarily took away peoples rights to free movement, free speech and association.

The same Manlie invented the gun court, in camera trials before one judge, so one judge could without a jury determine whether you get locked away for the rest of your life on the accusation of a police officer.

The next bit of crime committed on the Jamaica people is the Suppression of Crime Act, which the JLP eventually incorporated into the police

Michael manley was actually reacting ti the most violent and murderour period of Jamaican history. he was actually attempting to fight againsr the covert actions of the CIA which at the time along withe ptivate sector and the JLP was involved ina campaign of sanotage of the country. this was being done under the guise of fighting communism. [/qb]

The State of Emergency was not about the violence. Menlie fear that at a meeting that Blindaga was about to hold Blindaga was about to reveal the Manlie had given Spy Robison a Gun, a place to stay and orders to spy on the JLP.

I am not beating any drum for Blindaga, like I said before I supported the PNP and have never favoured the JLP. Both the JLP and the PNP got involved in the Cold War foolishly because in the PNP's case it was never committed to Socialism, while the JLP even though it exposes Capitalism practiced a more oligarchic economic policy that true capitalism.

So the rational for a State of Emergency was not for the benefit of the cessation of violence, which in any case was equally the blame of both parties, but benefit the party in particular the secret cabal within the PNP, headed by Menlie.

[barosa]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Having tracked this thread, it is obvious that this topic has morphed into one that is dealing with events and cicumstances that are primarily Jamaican in substance and nature.

If not broaden as was the original intent, I will have to transfer it to "Jamaican News and Politrix".

[Tropicana]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Barosa, I have been going back and editing the individual country sections to lay down some basic information so the additions have been made daily but in the original country sections. It will broaden. I wanted to get the basic information down first before starting to focus the discussion and analysis on comparison. I will be starting a comparison between Jamaica and the other countries later on today. Please just bear with me a little longer. Thanks.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Originally posted by barosa:
[qb] Having tracked this thread, it is obvious that this topic has morphed into one that is dealing with events and cicumstances that are primarily Jamaican in substance and nature.

If not broaden as was the original intent, I will have to transfer it to "Jamaican News and Politrix". [/qb]

The powers of the moderators if the going does not suit, transfer it or lock it down.

As long as it was monolog with huge cut and paste without any understanding or discussion, it was fine. When the in depth understanding becomes apparent and names start getting called, flesh start getting put on what was plucked out of thin air it is a different matter.

The background to this so-called discussion is simple Ms Tropicana mentioned Ceylon, as a comparison to Jamaica, I said it would have been better to compare Singapore which was a lower stage of development than Jamaica at one time.
Not only that the population of Singapore is way in excess of Jamaica, which is also part of the reason why this post came about.

Therefore the argument was always about Jamaica the other countries were been used as a comparison. Now if she started it here or there so be it, but the essential arguments would be the same, that is did not matter what economic model was chosen the political management to that is what is important.

The questions then what were the models
What models were chosen?
How were those models operated?

It seems to me then if you can decide the Racism was used in Barbados.
Fascism was used in Singapore and Malaysia
Then why not look at what was used in Jamaica.

[Tropicana]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Tuff Gong, I know that you have objected more than once to my style of opening this thread and that's okay. The goal was not to engage in a monologue and stifle discussion but to lay down certain basic facts, figures, etc. so that we would have a basis for comparing the nations. Not everyone is up to speed about what is happening in all of these countries so this was may way of laying some ground work so that a fruitful discussion could take place. I hope that I have been successful in doing that.

The background to this so-called discussion is simple Ms Tropicana mentioned Ceylon, as a comparison to Jamaica, I said it would have been better to compare Singapore which was a lower stage of development than Jamaica at one time.
Not only that the population of Singapore is way in excess of Jamaica, which is also part of the reason why this post came about.

Therefore the argument was always about Jamaica the other countries were been used as a comparison. Now if she started it here or there so be it, but the essential arguments would be the same, that is did not matter what economic model was chosen the political management to that is what is important.

It seems to me then if you can decide the Racism was used in Barbados.
Fascism was used in Singapore and Malaysia
Then why not look at what was used in Jamaica

There is no evidence that I have seen the the model used in Barbados was racism and that Singapore and Malaysia are fascist. I know one boardite did make that comment.

I think it's safe to say that all of the countries we have looked at so far have had tensions of race, class and ideology no matter what political and economic models have been followed. Singapore certainly has a MUCH stronger economy than Jamaica. This has not come without a price in terms of heavy restrictions in some areas. (Jamaica could do with stricter laws with respect to littering and the DISGUSTING practice of men urinating wherever and whenever they feel like it on the street. ) So could Malaysia for that matter. I went to Templer's Park a BEAUTIFUL area that reminded me of the Enchanted Garden but MUCH, MUCH bigger and with all natural wateralls. I couldn't believe the litter. One would never find that in Singapore.

The rate of economic development in BOTH Singapore and Malaysia has been nothing short of astounding within a relatively short period of time and against some pretty significant odds. Malaysia even underwent a period attack from a neighbouring country of heavy conflict, race riots and guerilla warfare (I haven't posted about this yet but I will shortly). Here is some background on the challenges Malaysia has faced. I will put it here for now and cut and paste it into the country profile later:

Barbados, which is close to Jamaica in terms of history has emerged with a MUCH stronger economy, political stability, less violence, a more stable family structure, etc. I am interested in comments about the factors that account for these differences. Tuff Gong, you lived in Barbados for a while. Any thoughts on why Jamaica and Barbados have taken different paths.

[rebelgirl]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Please lets keep this discussion civil, and not engage in name calling and personal attacks.

thank you- rebel

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Originally posted by Tropicana:
[qb] Barbados, which is close to Jamaica in terms of history has emerged with a MUCH stronger economy, political stability, less violence, a more stable family structure, etc. I am interested in comments about the factors that account for these differences. Tuff Gong, you lived in Barbados for a while. Any thoughts on why Jamaica and Barbados have taken different paths.[/qb]

I didn't have to live in Barbados to determine that, but have lived in Barbados I could say Racism is not why they advanced over Jamaica, on the other hand in Jamaica we have had Racists, Shade-ist, Tribalism polices of men and women in leadership positions such as the two Manlies, Blindaga, Pjoke, Maxine Henry Wilson, Shearer, etc….

In fact let me not go too much further let me use the words of the horses out their mouths. Paraphrased

Daddy Manlie: Left to themselves political parties soon become mere vote getting machines.
Son of Manlie: There are five flights a day to Miami if you don't like my policies.
Maxine Henry Wilson:
Politics is about who gets what, when, where and how.
PJoke: The fights for scarce goods and spoils have contributed to a polarized society in which we operated as hostile tribes perpetually at war with each other.
PJoke: Remember The PNP is still in charge of Central Government so if you vote the wrong way you will end up sucking salt through a wooden spoon.
PJoke: A Black Man Time now
Omar Davis: One the Road to the fourth term....jut mek it run.
Ronnie Twit: I come to drink milk and not count cow.
Ronnie Twit: The PNP government is responsible for the most massive transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich since slavery.
Ronnie Twit: The last day of full employment in Jamaica was the day before emancipation.
Blindaga: A gwine lack dis dung tighter than a sardine tin.

Now with men and women like these running a country, what socio-economic system could produce any different outcome that now results in Jamaica?

[Tropicana]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

PJoke: A Black Man Time now

Yes, I have heard him speak a NUMBER of times in Jamaica and this phrase is included in every speech.

Of course, don't forget Mr. Shearer's famous speech before the UN:

Mr. Shearer: His heidah har eidah. Wi don't come fe bow and scrape.

What an embarrassment.

You and I don't see the Manleys the same way. I guess we'll debate that further and get other opinions too.

So, if I were to sum up your POV Tuff Gong. Would it be fair to say that you perceive Jamaica's diffulties as stemming in large part from a crisis in leadership?

Let's compare Jamaica's leaders to the leadership that you observed in or are familiar with in Barbados. What are your thoughts about that? When I am in Malaysia and Singapore I hear people expressing frustration about the leadership too albeit not as openly or a fervently as we express it in Jamaica. Bigabroad, who is at the moment FAST asleep on the other side of the world, please weigh in and compare the quality of Jamaica's leaders to the leadership in Singapore and Malaysia.

Examples:

Comments re: Leadership in Malaysia

Malaysian Political Landscape


Surely leadership is not the only factor that accounts for some of the growing pains that ALL of the countries we have been looking at have had.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Originally posted by Tropicana:
[qb] Surely leadership is not the only factor that accounts for some of the growing pains that ALL of the countries we have been looking at have had.[/qb]

Jamaica has growing pains after 40 years?
What growth?
I will repeat at one time Singapore was behind Jamaica in development and followed a model that the looked at in Jamaica.

A few years ago when China wanted to open its market the Chinese Government asked and got inputs from all over the world one of the countries it looked at was Jamaica in particular the Free zone Garment Industry.

Where is the Jamaica Garment Industry now and where are the Chinese?
If you made any attempt to have a discussion about Jamaica's problems you surely would not have missed the articles in the most recent editions of the Gleaner, The Herald and the Observer. So how can one hold any discussions if the main participant is really not interested the Country under study mainly to post articles left right and center that mentions nothing about the main country under study?

[britisha]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Almost everyone in Jamaica knows of at least two family planning methods and more than 90% of all women in union did not wish to become pregnant when questioned for a 1993 survey. The same survey showed that 75% of all births were unwanted or mistimed.

Of all the ridiculous statements.."births" unwanted or mistimed..coming out of the UN at that. ..and this is WHY one must be careful of what one cuts and paste, or believe when it comes on to info on the web regardless of the source. How in God's name can a birth be unwanted or mistimed? **chuckle** If a woman finds herself pregnant and decides to carry to term, then it only follows that the "birth" is wanted, unless she prefers to be pregnant forever. ...and if she decides to have a Caesarean section, then it is timed.. I am sure they meant to say "pregnancy" but in the same vain, unless it is invitro fertilization ie the ovum is injected there and then with the sperm...one could hardly ever say that it can be "timed."


carry on!!

[Tropicana]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

So how can one hold any discussions if the main participant is really not interested the Country under study mainly to post articles left right and center that mentions nothing about the main country under study?

Tuff Gong, I AM interested in discussing Jamaica. This thread is a comparative thread. If we were discussing ONLY Jamaica, it would have been posted in the Jamaican politrix section. A moderator has already come on and provided that caution. This is the third time that you are complaining about how I am approaching this thread. Okay Tuff Gong, how would YOUR suggest approaching it? Should we just all come in here and express our own personal opinions. I am really curious to know how you feel a thread of this nature should be approached. If I am doing it ALL wrong, you DO have the option of starting another one and showing us all how it'SUPPOSED to be done or adding to this one what you think is lacking.

Jamaica has some very serious problems...we know that but how can you honestly say that the country has not grown. As Black Jamaicans, we now have access to opportunities that our parents and grandparents could only dream of. Over the long haul, there has been an improvement in our GDP. Infant mortality is down, literacy is up, a smaller percentage of our population is living in poverty, more Jamaicans than ever before have access to educational opportunities, as Black people, we are now able to go places in our own country from which we were barred before. Now if I post stats to demonstrate that you are going to accuse me of posting willy nilly. How can one discuss ANYTHING without facts!! Our economy was actually coming along quite nicely until Gilbert gave us a one two punch. The ripple effect of September 11th has had a GLOBAL impact. When we compare ourselves to places like Malaysia and Singapore, the racial tensions haven't boiled over in Jamaica as often or NEARLY as severely as they have in other countries. We have not had decades of civil war like Sierra Leone. We have not been attacked by neighbouring countries like Malaysia. So, while things are FAR from perfect in Jamaica, you know I think that sometimes we should stop, count our blessings and thank the good Lord for the blessings and opportunities that he HAS provided. The glass is not just half empty. It is also half full. Sometimes the way you talk Tuff Gong, one would think that there is NOTHING positive about Jamaica. I beg to differ with you. I am going to ask you flat out Tuff Gong "Is there nothing positive about Jamaica? When you look at the information I have posted so far are you going to tell me that there are NO areas in which Jamaica is out performing the other countries?" I throw those questions out to you and anyone else who cares to answer it.

[Tropicana]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Originally posted by britisha:
[qb]

Almost everyone in Jamaica knows of at least two family planning methods and more than 90% of all women in union did not wish to become pregnant when questioned for a 1993 survey. The same survey showed that 75% of all births were unwanted or mistimed.

Of all the ridiculous statements.."births" unwanted or mistimed..coming out of the UN at that. ..and this is WHY one must be careful of what one cuts and paste, or believe when it comes on to info on the web regardless of the source. How in God's name can a birth be unwanted or mistimed? **chuckle** If a woman finds herself pregnant and decides to carry to term, then it only follows that the "birth" is wanted, unless she prefers to be pregnant forever. ...and if she decides to have a Caesarean section, then it is timed.. I am sure they meant to say "pregnancy" but in the same vain, unless it is invitro fertilization one could hardly ever say that it can be "timed" ie the ovum is injected there and then with the sperm...

carry on!! [/qb]

Britisha, this UN survey is based on what the women reported. As we know, Jamaica does not have the liberal abortion laws of some other jurisdictions and we have had some challenges with resepct to the use of contraception.

Ill timed means that the pregnancy has not come at a time in a woman's life when she feels equipped to provide adequately for the child. I agree that better wording could have been chosen to express this.

EDITED TO ADD:

Britisha, I am attempting to rely on sources that are well respected and that have data on a number of countries so that we can make apples to apples comparisons. Now clearly not everyone respects the UN, Planned Parenthood, the BBC, the World Bank, or some of the other organizations from which I have taken this information. I welcome your input and I have invited you and other boardites to share any information that you feel would be beneficial. Is you know of better sources of information, I hope that you (and others) will add them to this thread.

[britisha]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Originally posted by Tropicana:
[qb]

So how can one hold any discussions if the main participant is really not interested the Country under study mainly to post articles left right and center that mentions nothing about the main country under study?

Tuff Gong, I AM interested in discussing Jamaica. This thread is a comparative thread. If we were discussing ONLY Jamaica, it would have been posted in the Jamaican politrix section. A moderator has already come on and provided that caution. This is the third time that you are complaining about how I am approaching this thread. Okay Tuff Gong, how would YOUR suggest approaching it? Should we just all come in here and express our own personal opinions. I am really curious to know how you feel a thread of this nature should be approached. If I am doing it ALL wrong, you DO have the option of starting another one and showing us all how it'SUPPOSED to be done or adding to this one what you think is lacking.

Jamaica has some very serious problems...we know that but how can you honestly say that the country has not grown. As Black Jamaicans, we now have access to opportunities that our parents and grandparents could only dream of. Over the long haul, there has been an improvement in our GDP. Infant mortality is down, literacy is up, a smaller percentage of our population is living in poverty, more Jamaicans than ever before have access to educational opportunities, as Black people, we are now able to go places in our own country from which we were barred before. Now if I post stats to demonstrate that you are going to accuse me of posting willy nilly. How can one discuss ANYTHING without facts!! Our economy was actually coming along quite nicely until Gilbert gave us a one two punch. The ripple effect of September 11th has had a GLOBAL impact. When we compare ourselves to places like Malaysia and Singapore, the racial tensions haven't boiled over in Jamaica as often or NEARLY as severely as they have in other countries. We have not had decades of civil war like Sierra Leone. We have not been attacked by neighbouring countries like Malaysia. So, while things are FAR from perfect in Jamaica, you know I think that sometimes we should stop, count our blessings and thank the good Lord for the blessings and opportunities that he HAS provided. The glass is not just half empty. It is also half full. Sometimes the way you talk Tuff Gong, one would think that there is NOTHING positive about Jamaica. I beg to differ with you. I am going to ask you flat out Tuff Gong "Is there nothing positive about Jamaica? When you look at the information I have posted so far are you going to tell me that there are NO areas in which Jamaica is out performing the other countries?" I throw those questions out to you and anyone else who cares to answer it. [/qb]

I don't get it Tropicana. Are you saying that things in Jamaica were satis prior to hurricane Gilbert? The issue is not whether there is anything positive about Jamaica, for if it is, then why did you start this thread?

The issue as I see it is that Jamaica has sunk to a new low, where brother is killing brother and sister is killing sister, mother, father, friend and foe...and more often than not, money is the main cause. Families studying and planning the murder of their own relatives, this is a fact, in other words, where has the love gone? What has overcome our people that we have been reduced to a state where our crime..read murder stats..have been making international headlines.

Money is not everything, but it surely makes the mare run. Consider young people with their certificates who have to become higglahs at "Ben Dung Plaza" because they cannot find work, killing the hopes of others who are coming behind them. This is the issue to be dealt with. The "why", why has our country reached this state inspite of the fact that millions of dollars are being pumped into the economy by many of us from abroad, and we supposedly have a halfway decent tourist industry. Why? What is the government doing for the youths, the future generation of Jamaica? That is the question, or part of it.

Where are our leaders?

[britisha]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Regarding timed and unwanted births Trop, if they can state something as stupid as this, how reliable is the other info that they and others have provided? Food for thought.

[Tropicana]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Britisha, this is not the first study over the past few decades in which Jamaican women have spoken about unwanted pregnancies at a time when they were ill-equipped to provide for the child.

With respect to the information sources, if you feel that the information that has been posted in this thread is unreliable or inaccurate, please feel free to post information that is more reliable and accurate. It would aid the discussion.

I don't get it Tropicana. Are you saying that things in Jamaica were satis prior to hurricane Gilbert?

No, but there had been some economic improvements For example, we were out from under the thumb of the IMF. The cost of repairing the infrastructure that was damaged due to Gilbert is what made Jamaica go back to the IMF with hat in hand. That is what PJ Patterson told an audience of Jamaicans in Toronto. I was there and I heard him say it. I took his words at face value.

Now, if he was wrong and this was political posturing...I am willing to be educated about this matter.

Got to take kid to hockey but I will be back.