Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

[britisha]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Originally posted by Tropicana:
[qb] Britisha, this is not the first study over the past few decades in which Jamaican women have spoken about unwanted pregnancies at a time when they were ill-equipped to provide for the child.

With respect to the information. If you feel that the information that has been posted is unreliable or inaccurate, please feel free to post information that is more reliable and accurate. [/qb]

Tropicana, it seems that you have missed the point. The operative word here is "births", births and pregnancy are not one and the same thing.

[Tropicana]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

I agree with you Britisha that the wording could have been better. I still used the quote as I felt it was important to convey the message that a lot of pregnancies are unplanned. If there is a source that says it better and that also provides data from other countries, I would welcome an opportunity to be made aware of it.

See you in a bit.

EDITED TO ADD:

I hope this says it better:

....only 34% of all pregnancies in 1997 were planned.

http://www.crlp.org/pdf/wowlac_pr00_jamaica.pdf

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Originally posted by Tropicana:
Tuff Gong, I AM interested in discussing Jamaica. This thread is a comparative thread. If we were discussing ONLY Jamaica, [/QB]

I am not saying how you post or what you should post. I am just reminding you that thread came out of a post where you introduced a country to compare with Jamaica. I suggested another, and you promised me to start a thread to compare the three countries. When it got over here another country was introduced, without my participation is suddenly turned into a discussion about Racism and Fascism that was nothing but arrant nonsense which you and the other person(s) seem to be enjoying till I entered the discussion.

Okay I will stop making any noise.

Let me shed some light:

Barbados spends about 18% GDP on education
Jamaica spends about 5% and recently complained that 95% of the budget goes toward paying salaries.
Six years ago the Mr. Patterson's Economic Master Plan called for the Jamaican Economy to grow by six percent per annum so it will match Barbados 1992 level, so far the Economy has not grown 6% over those six years
In the 14 years of the PNP Administration 300 factories have closed, this while the economy of our biggest market the USA was growing.
In 14 years of the PNP the US Dollar has moved from $5.50 (weighted average) to $59 to one (free market).
The Barbados Dollar have remained stable for years
Jamaica's Politicians are the highest paid in the region.
The Barbadian Politicians are about 3-4th on the list.
In Jamaica besides paying for 15 governments, the persons doing business must pay higher more complex cost for labour, Security, utilities and dollar conversion.
Our trade with the Caricom which includes Barbados is US$300 million for them we sell them $44 million, at one time it was square $44-$44, which means we have been left standing in the dust.
Cuba a country you did not look but who we might be competing against at have a 6% growth in tourism this in the face of a USA ban on trade, which mean they must pay higher for their imports and have a smaller pool of tourists to choose from.
Cuba is also safer we have one of the highest murder rate in the world.


This is all from memory and subject to correction....I have a hard drive full of little notes that I have to go through to make any corrections.

[Tropicana]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

I am not saying how you post or what you should post. I am just reminding you that thread came out of a post where you introduced a country to compare with Jamaica. I suggested another, and you promised me to start a thread to compare the three countries. When it got over here another country was introduced, without my participation is suddenly turned into a discussion about Racism and Fascism that was nothing but arrant nonsense which you and the other person(s) seem to be enjoying till I entered the discussion.

Tuff Gong, let me remind you that I never even mentioned the word facism in ANY of my posts in this thread until after YOU had posted about it. I have not been engaging in a discussion about facism. In terms of adding countries to the discussion, I don't see anything wrong with that. Do you? So, can we please move on. Thanks.

With respect to the question about why I started this thread, it was to:

- compare Jamaica to a number of other countries that are former British colonies
- identify areas in which we have performed well and areas in which we have performed poorly when compared with these countries
- discuss the reasons for the differences in performance
- learn from both the positive experiences and the challenges that other countries have faced

Okay Britisha an Tuff Gong, you have both raised a number of critical concerns about what is going on in Jamaica w.r.t. the murder rate. I had posted some statistics re: murder and crime rates so I agree that our problems are WAY off the scale w.r.t. murder. Here is some more data:


2002 Murder Rate Rankings by Country

http://nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap

1. Colombia 0.65 per 1000 people
2. South Africa 0.5 per 1000 people
3. Jamaica 0.33 per 1000 people
4. Venezuela 0.33 per 1000 people
34. Malaysia 0.02 per 1000 people

Singapore, Barbados and Sri Lanka were not included in this ranking.

I think rather than focusing on the numbers, it's important to identify root causes. Without identifying root causes, there will be no possibility of reversing this trend.

Based on what has been presented so far in this thread and any other information you have, what do you feel is causing the violence? Also, I think it's important to compare the murders in Jamaica to the deaths due to race riots and guerilla warfare in some of the other countries we have looked at in this thread.


Biritsha has already eloquently shared her thoughts and may choose to add more as we go:

The issue as I see it is that Jamaica has sunk to a new low, where brother is killing brother and sister is killing sister, mother, father, friend and foe...and more often than not, money is the main cause. Families studying and planning the murder of their own relatives, this is a fact, in other words, where has the love gone? What has overcome our people that we have been reduced to a state where our crime..read murder stats..have been making international headlines.

Money is not everything, but it surely makes the mare run. Consider young people with their certificates who have to become higglahs at "Ben Dung Plaza" because they cannot find work, killing the hopes of others who are coming behind them. This is the issue to be dealt with. The "why", why has our country reached this state inspite of the fact that millions of dollars are being pumped into the economy by many of us from abroad, and we supposedly have a halfway decent tourist industry. Why? What is the government doing for the youths, the future generation of Jamaica? That is the question, or part of it.

I will put on the table that violence usually stems from anger. If people are angry it is for a reason. This quote relates to murders in Jamaica in 1998:

Almost 45% of murders in Jamaica are the result of domestic violence.

We also have drug related murders and murders due to gang related incidents. Some of this spilled over onto the streets of Toronto last fall and some of the incidents took place in broad daylight. Others are incidents are related to robberies. The incidents that have taken place recently are not new. However, there is an escalation of these incidents.

Murder 'Madness' Bedevils Jamaica
By Serge F. Kovaleski
Washington Post Foreign Service
Tuesday, July 27, 1999; Page A13




Overall, 505 people have been slain this year, most of them young, unemployed men who belong to heavily armed drug gangs that compete for turf in poor neighborhoods in and around Kingston. A total of 185 people were killed in May and June, most of them in the capital.

During one 17-day stretch running into July, 66 victims--including an elderly woman shot in the head by robbers and three young girls who were raped--were felled in bloodshed that sent dozens of panicked residents fleeing their inner-city homes. Some sought refuge inside police stations, where they set up makeshift camps.

Jamaica has had one of the highest murder rates in the world for years--ranking third after South Africa and Brazil in the latest U.N. estimates--despite its reputation as a happy-go-lucky island of sun, sand and reggae. But the latest spasm is viewed as a particularly acute symptom of the seemingly intractable problems that darken the future of this nation of 2.6 million people.

Some observers associate the surge of violence with the large numbers of Jamaican criminals deported back to the island each year from the United States, Britain and Canada. Last year, the United States alone returned 1,196 criminals.

Furthermore, large numbers of guns smuggled into Jamaica by Jamaican gang members and other criminals in the United States continue to find their way onto the streets, a flow that Patterson insists must be arrested through more effective detection.

The recent shootings have been condemned not only by Jamaica's vast underclass but also by members of the uptown elite, which has been relatively insulated from the violence. Their ire was flamed when Heather Little-White, a well-known newspaper columnist and nutritionist to the Jamaican World Cup soccer team, was shot and left paralyzed in an attempted car robbery on an uptown Kingston street. In another high-profile crime in the capital, Tajh Burrell, son of the of Jamaica Football Federation's president, Horace Burrell, and a friend, Jason Byles, were shot dead Sunday.

http://www.nisat.org/murder%20madnes...%20jamaica.htm

[Tropicana]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Tuff Gong, thank you for posting the information about Barbados and Jamaica. There is a clear difference in performance between the two countries along a number of dimensions. What do you think is responsible for these differences? We have discussed leadership? Are there any otehr factors that you feel would account for these differences?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Originally posted by Tropicana:
[qb]There is a clear difference in performance between the two countries along a number of dimensions. What do you think is responsible for these differences? We have discussed leadership? Are there any otehr factors that you feel would account for these differences? [/qb]

I don't know that we have exactly discussed leadership. First off Jamaica has never had leadership so to speak. Jamaica has and have had men and women in Leadership positions. A few of the Jamaican-isms that set Jamaica apart from our competitors in Caricom are:

<ul type="square">[*]The pervasive level of corruption in Jamaica.
(I will read my hardrive and post some references later, but you can go to Transparency International there should be report there that details the latest UN study on the cost of doing business in various countries. Jamaica is once again on the list of most corrupt countries.)[*]The politically inspired violence that has been a feature of Jamaican politics since the 60s.[*]The economic model of various half-baked isms, superimposed on the old Imperial Preferences.[*]The poor educational foundations that have emphasizes graduates from a few Star Intuitions and does not seek to educate all Jamaicans.[*]The destruction of our older hardier communication system (our network of parochial roads, postal service, public transport service)[*]Generally the politics of handing out scarce goods and spoils, that has seen massive funds diverted to party favorites and dons.[*]The Government's appetite for cash that has staved local investors of funds.[*]The high interests rates.[/list]
The last two are recent additions but they are now the two most defining feature of our stagnation.

[qb]I think rather than focusing on the numbers, it's important to identify root causes. Without identifying root causes, there will be no possibility of reversing this trend.

Based on what has been presented so far in this thread and any other information you have, what do you feel is causing the violence? Also, I think it's important to compare the murders in Jamaica to the deaths due to race riots and guerilla warfare in some of the other countries we have looked at in this thread.[/qb]

Brothers have been killing each other for a long time over politics in Jamaica. The two most famous of the combatants were the Spaulding Brothers, one an MP in one of the most feared Garrisons in South Western St Andrew.
Of course they did not take up the gun against each other, but they are examples of the tone and trend that politics in Jamaica took.

As to what is causing the present violence. Many factors. When the politicians had the money fund the garrisons and their supporters they were kings and queens. In the late 80's things began to change, the leaders of a lot of the violent gangs of the 70's entered the USA and later Britain and formed Super Drug Dealing Gangs. Gangs with name such a the Shower Posse, Cocaine Cowboys, The Yardies (which was not a Gang as such but a term loosely applied to the just-come as against the British Bred), were well known. Most of the foot soldiers who were drawn from the Jamaican or west Indian communities in the new countries held no political allegiance but the but the leadership made of men who fought in the 70's war were still aligned to the two main political tribes in Jamaica. These men both funded the Gangs on street in Jamaica and their erstwhile bosses in the two main political tribes. The most famous instance of this was when a friend of mine from childhood days, mounted the platform at a political meeting and handed the President of the Peoples National Party, Michael Manley and bag containing US$50,000.

Eventually the MPs roles were inverted in the Ghettos and Garrisons no longer was the MP the Don who paid the school fees, paid for the guns, or selected the beneficiaries of the construction contracts, all things flowed through the Dons. The declining fortunes of the country meant the declining support for adherents to these parties. The decline of the super gangs in the foreign bases also meant declining support for a lot of the dependants at home.

This brought about new ways of earning a living the local Dons still charged with providing food and security, turned to local drug dealing, mostly crack and to extortion. However everyone cannot be supported from these activities, which unlike money from the politicians and money from abroad are smaller and more prone to interruptions, so some members of various communities have formed themselves into various gangs that ape the more organized Dons dealing drugs and extorting from all levels of people.

What we are seeing in Jamaica is more dis-organized crimes, than organized crimes. Which mean there is likely to be no honour among criminals and the example of the raid on the tourist cottage is shift in that direction.

Peace

[Tropicana]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Really good analysis Tuff Gong. Fills in some of the gaps for me. Thanks Tuff Gong.

Now earlier you had mentioned the reason for the Gun Court. It's the first time I have heard that argument. I was just becoming aware of Jamaican politics around the time that the Gun Court act was enacted. From what I understood at the time, the Gun Court Act was a way of dealing with the skyrocketing murder rate and it did seem to work for a while. I understand that the reason the Gun Court provisions were changed from indefinite detention to specific sentence was that some big shot's kids ended up in the Gun Court and their dad got some high profile lawyer to appeal their conviction all the way to the Privy Council. When poor people were being locked up it was okay. I don't recall the details other than that or the players because, at the time, they were not familiar to me. Can you shed any light on this?

I do recall that Manley was upset with the Privy Council decision and that he came on TV and said that steps needed to be taken for Jamaica to become a Republic so that the Privy Council no longer had jurisdiction. Any of the people living in Jamaica at the time who I heard express views about the gun court, felt that, in it's original iteration, it was a good thing. Now I have no independent data that shows that's how the majority of Jamaicans felt at the time. (If anyone has this information, please share it.) This is just based on my memory of personal conversations.

The name you mentioned before Tuff Gong, Spy Robinson, is vaguely familiar to me. Can you tell us more? Here is an article that backs up what you said earlier about the real reason for the Gun Court Act.

Jamaica's Crackdown

The one gun control law that was followed by a noticeable drop in crime was enacted in Jamaica, where a 1974 gun confiscation law was accompanied by numerous other repressive measures, including house-to-house searches, incommunicado detention, secret trials, mandatory life in prison for possession of a single bullet, warrantless searches and seizures, and military enforcement of the drug laws. The Jamaican violent crime rate dropped significantly for six months, returned to its former level over the next year, and then began to grow substantially worse than it had ever been.

As the homicide rate soared far above American levels, about a third of all Jamaican homicides were perpetrated by the police; a Jamaican suffered a higher risk of being murdered by the police than an American did of being murdered by anyone. According to the human rights group Americas Watch, policemen would murder personal enemies, and then falsely claim that the victims were killed in a shoot-out. Homicides perpetrated by the police were rarely investigated, as long as the policeman claimed that the victim had a gun. The increasing police violence, made possible in part by middle-class hysteria over guns, in turn fuelled a cycle of violence in the rest of Jamaican society.

Almost every scholar who has studied the Jamaican crime situation shares the conclusions of criminologist William Calathes' award-winning analysis, which found that the gun restrictions, as well as the other restrictions on civil liberty, were the result of "highly developed skills of political management" which were designed not to reduce crime, but to distract public attention from the underlying problems of Jamaican society, including economic inequality.


Tropicana: I had never heard this before.

Jamaica's experience with a soaring rate of murder-by-government would not be particularly surprising to many American or Australian gun owners. In the United States and Australia, many gun-owners view the fundamental purpose of the right to bear arms to be resistance to a tyrannical government. Most gun-owners in Great Britain, Canada, and New Zealand, though, would chide their American and Australian cousins for placing guns in the context of resistance to authority, rather than innocent sporting purposes.

http://www.crimefree.org.za/Role-pla...es/jamaica.htm

This is more about the Gun Court from a Google cached copy of a PDG file from the Jamaicans for Justice web site:

http://www.jamaicansforjustice.org/

The rising crime rate has drawn ever more rights-threatening responses from the state. The Suppression of Crime Act of 1974 invested the police with Extra Common Law Powers of Detention and was blamed for many breaches of police conduct. Although this Act was repealed in 1993, some of the provisions where immediately introduced as amendments to existing legislation. Separate legislation, the Gun Court Act, also introduced in the early 1970s is still in existence today. Although the Gun Court Act was also amended, the Act denies offenders in firearm cases the right to a trial by jury; this right is substituted by trial by judge, in secret and much harsher penalties apply. Acting under this legislation of dubious constitutionality, the police arbitrarily abused citizens' rights. According to the Wolfe Report, persons recruited into the police force have developed in a "suppression of crime culture" and "are not properly sensitised as to the sacrosanct nature of the citizens' rights and that it is the role of the police to respect and protect the citizen against any abuse of those rights."2

We have seen that some of the other countries we've looked at. For example, Malaysia for has gone through more than one State of Emergency. Sometimes we forget that events that take place in Jamaica have their parallels in other parts of the world. The following story will give one example. The parallel does not become evident until the end of the story so please be patient while I set the stage. If I can find the story on line, I will post the link.

When I was in Malaysia 3 years ago, there was an incident that I will re-cap briefly. I was at the KL airport with my local hosts awaiting a flight to East Malaysia. On the TV there were some soldiers and they did not look very happy. The broadcast was in Malay so I didn't understand what was going on. My business colleague explained that the soldiers had been disarmed by Muslim militants. We were away from KL for several days. By the time we got back, the whole incident had exploded, some high profile person had been shot and the compound where the militants were holding up had been located and raided.

Now comes the main point of my story and the parallel to Jamaica during the 1970s. We got back to KL. After we left the airport and were driving back to the city, traffic came to a halt. This was surprising as this was at night. Traffic moved slowly and I eventually saw barricades, police, etc. Our car was stopped, the driver was asked a number of questions and asked to show his ID, a flashlight was used to search the car briefly and then we were on our way. I said to my colleague "I've seen this before in Jamaica in the 1970s. It's a roadblock isn't it?" He replied yes and it was related to the events of the past few days. Reminded me of when I encountered my first Roadblock in Jamaica in 1977. I didn't have a clue WHAT was going on. Now I can recognize a roadblock when I see one.

For the younger boardites, this is the context of Bob Marley's song Rebel Music (a.k.a. 3 O'clock Roadblock:


Why can't we roam this open country
Oh why can't we be what we want to be
We want to be free

3 o'clock - roadblock, curfew



Rebel Music Audio Track

Rebel Music (Complete Lyrics)

Loved his vocals on this one, wicked I Threes harmony and the rhythmn was amazing.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Originally posted by Tropicana:
[qb] Really good analysis Tuff Gong. Fills in some of the gaps for me. Thanks Tuff Gong.

Now earlier you had mentioned the reason for the Gun Court. It's the first time I have heard that argument. I was just becoming aware of Jamaican politics around the time that the Gun Court act was enacted. From what I understood at the time, the Gun Court Act was a way of dealing with the skyrocketing murder rate and it did seem to work for a while. I understand that the reason the Gun Court provisions were changed from indefinite detention to specific sentence was that some big shot's kids ended up in the Gun Court and their dad got some high profile lawyer to appeal their conviction all the way to the Privy Council. When poor people were being locked up it was okay. I don't recall the details other than that or the players because, at the time, they were not familiar to me. Can you shed any light on this?

I do recall that Manley was upset with the Privy Council decision and that he came on TV and said that steps needed to be taken for Jamaica to become a Republic so that the Privy Council no longer had jurisdiction. Any of the people living in Jamaica at the time who I heard express views about the gun court, felt that, in it's original iteration, it was a good thing. Now I have no independent data that shows that's how the majority of Jamaicans felt at the time. (If anyone has this information, please share it.) This is just based on my memory of personal conversations.

The name you mentioned before Tuff Gong, Spy Robinson, is vaguely familiar to me. Can you tell us more? Here is an article that backs up what you said earlier about the real reason for the Gun Court Act.

Jamaica's Crackdown

The one gun control law that was followed by a noticeable drop in crime was enacted in Jamaica, where a 1974 gun confiscation law was accompanied by numerous other repressive measures, including house-to-house searches, incommunicado detention, secret trials, mandatory life in prison for possession of a single bullet, warrantless searches and seizures, and military enforcement of the drug laws. The Jamaican violent crime rate dropped significantly for six months, returned to its former level over the next year, and then began to grow substantially worse than it had ever been.

As the homicide rate soared far above American levels, about a third of all Jamaican homicides were perpetrated by the police; a Jamaican suffered a higher risk of being murdered by the police than an American did of being murdered by anyone. According to the human rights group Americas Watch, policemen would murder personal enemies, and then falsely claim that the victims were killed in a shoot-out. Homicides perpetrated by the police were rarely investigated, as long as the policeman claimed that the victim had a gun. The increasing police violence, made possible in part by middle-class hysteria over guns, in turn fuelled a cycle of violence in the rest of Jamaican society.

Almost every scholar who has studied the Jamaican crime situation shares the conclusions of criminologist William Calathes' award-winning analysis, which found that the gun restrictions, as well as the other restrictions on civil liberty, were the result of "highly developed skills of political management" which were designed not to reduce crime, but to distract public attention from the underlying problems of Jamaican society, including economic inequality.


Tropicana: I had never heard this before.

Jamaica's experience with a soaring rate of murder-by-government would not be particularly surprising to many American or Australian gun owners. In the United States and Australia, many gun-owners view the fundamental purpose of the right to bear arms to be resistance to a tyrannical government. Most gun-owners in Great Britain, Canada, and New Zealand, though, would chide their American and Australian cousins for placing guns in the context of resistance to authority, rather than innocent sporting purposes.

http://www.crimefree.org.za/Role-pla...es/jamaica.htm

This is more about the Gun Court from a Google cached copy of a PDG file from the Jamaicans for Justice web site:

http://www.jamaicansforjustice.org/

The rising crime rate has drawn ever more rights-threatening responses from the state. The Suppression of Crime Act of 1974 invested the police with Extra Common Law Powers of Detention and was blamed for many breaches of police conduct. Although this Act was repealed in 1993, some of the provisions where immediately introduced as amendments to existing legislation. Separate legislation, the Gun Court Act, also introduced in the early 1970s is still in existence today. Although the Gun Court Act was also amended, the Act denies offenders in firearm cases the right to a trial by jury; this right is substituted by trial by judge, in secret and much harsher penalties apply. Acting under this legislation of dubious constitutionality, the police arbitrarily abused citizens' rights. According to the Wolfe Report, persons recruited into the police force have developed in a "suppression of crime culture" and "are not properly sensitised as to the sacrosanct nature of the citizens' rights and that it is the role of the police to respect and protect the citizen against any abuse of those rights."2

We have seen that some of the other countries we've looked at. For example, Malaysia for has gone through more than one State of Emergency. Sometimes we forget that events that take place in Jamaica have their parallels in other parts of the world. The following story will give one example. The parallel does not become evident until the end of the story so please be patient while I set the stage. If I can find the story on line, I will post the link.

When I was in Malaysia 3 years ago, there was an incident that I will re-cap briefly. I was at the KL airport with my local hosts awaiting a flight to East Malaysia. On the TV there were some soldiers and they did not look very happy. The broadcast was in Malay so I didn't understand what was going on. My business colleague explained that the soldiers had been disarmed by Muslim militants. We were away from KL for several days. By the time we got back, the whole incident had exploded, some high profile person had been shot and the compound where the militants were holding up had been located and raided.

Now comes the main point of my story and the parallel to Jamaica during the 1970s. We got back to KL. After we left the airport and were driving back to the city, traffic came to a halt. This was surprising as this was at night. Traffic moved slowly and I eventually saw barricades, police, etc. Our car was stopped, the driver was asked a number of questions and asked to show his ID, a flashlight was used to search the car briefly and then we were on our way. I said to my colleague "I've seen this before in Jamaica in the 1970s. It's a roadblock isn't it?" He replied yes and it was related to the events of the past few days. Reminded me of when I encountered my first Roadblock in Jamaica in 1977. I didn't have a clue WHAT was going on. Now I can recognize a roadblock when I see one.

For the younger boardites, this is the context of Bob Marley's song Rebel Music (a.k.a. 3 O'clock Roadblock:


Why can't we roam this open country
Oh why can't we be what we want to be
We want to be free

3 o'clock - roadblock, curfew



Rebel Music Audio Track

Rebel Music (Complete Lyrics)

Loved his vocals on this one, wicked I Threes harmony and the rhythmn was amazing. [/qb]

Well what can I add I have said this before and your research uncovered supporting evidence?

As for the big man son that was arrested I don't know. Spy Robinson was a man already convicted I think of 15 firearm offences that was introduced to Michael Manley by D. K. Duncan.

He was given a gun and housing by Michael turned around and told a lie that D. K. gave Robinson the gun. All of this eventually led to the State of Emergency, when Michael Manley thought he was about to outed by Edward Phillip George Seaga.

[Tropicana]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

As for the big man son that was arrested I don't know.

Dr. Dudd, Fledgist, Britisha, Afer, can you help us out here.

Spy Robinson was a man already convicted I think of 15 firearm offences that was introduced to Michael Manley by D. K. Duncan.

What was Spy Robinson's first name. I can't find anything about him on the net. I DO remember hearing something about the Spy Robinson affair but it was SO far back in my memory that other thatn the term "Spy Robinson affair" I don't recall any of the details. They don't ring a bell with me now either. Thank you for filling in those gaps Tuff Gong.

What ever became of D.K. Duncan? I recall hearing (during the 1976 election) that he was quite the...ahem...statistician.

[Tropicana]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

This is what I dug up on the Gun Court Case before the Privy Council. None of these names are familiar to me:

Hinds and Others vs. The Queen and the Attorney General of Jamaica (1976) 1 All E.R. 353

I now turn to a case not cited to me in argument but which came to my attention in my research on the Section 96 issue. The Hinds case is a decision of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council of the British House of Lords. It was a constitutional challenge brought by Hinds

[img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] Who is this Hinds person? Does anybody know? Is this the big shot's son I had heard about? If so, who is his father?

and four other defendants to the constitutional validity of the Gun Court Act 1974 (Jamaica).

In April 1974 the Parliament of Jamaica for reasons of its considerable concern about extreme violence and use of firearms in the Jamaican political situation decided to enact a new law to deal particularly with firearms offences and related matters.

Untill you posted the other day Tuff Gong, this was always my understanding of why the Gun Court came into being. I wasn't living in Jamaica at the time and only heard about it.

There was already in place a constitution modelled on that of Great Britain but the Gun Court Act 1974 was not an amendment to that constitution. It was an "ordinary law".

[QUOTE]
(3) The Circuit Court Division

This division was essentially the supreme court judges division. It was a superior court of record with its jurisdiction expanded in respect of firearm offences to any parish in Jamaica rather than just the parish for which the circuit court was being held.

The Judicial Committee of the Privy Council did not find unconstitutional the jurisdictional scheme of the resident magistrates court or the circuit court division. They found quite permissible the geographical enlargement of jurisdiction by the Parliament of Jamaica.

The full court division suffered a different fate. The full court division was found to offend the constitutional scheme in Jamaica for a number of reasons which are germane in the case at bar.

In summary, Their Lordships in the Judicial Committee held that:

"The provisions of the 1974 Act establishing a Full Court Division consisting of three resident magistrates were in conflict with Chapter VII of the Constitution since it was the manifest intention of the Constitution that, where Parliament established a new court to exercise part of the jurisdiction which was being exercised by members of the higher judiciary at the time when the Constitution came into force, the persons appointed to be members of that court were to be appointed in the same manner and entitled to the same security of tenure as members of the higher judiciary. Accordingly s. 97(1)b of the Constitution did not entitle the Jamaican Parliament to set up a new court composed of members of the lower judiciary with a jurisdiction characteristic of the Supreme Court extending to the trial not only of firearms offences but of all criminal offences, however serious, with the exception of capital offences. Accordingly those provisions were void under s. 2 of the Constitution."

I did not find any reference w.r.t. the indefinite sentences that were being handed out by the Gun Court.

http://www.dessus.com/TaxInfo/Cases/trimarchi.html

Okay HERE is the indefinite sentence part:

The Gun Court was established on April 2, 1974, as a combination court and prison to combat the increase in violent crimes involving firearms.

There appears to be more to it than that based on what Tuff Gong has shared and the article from another source I posted earlier. Other boardites who were in Jamaica at the time, please share your POV.

It operates as an extension of the Supreme Court and deals with crimes involving guns. The Gun Court Act allowed detention and prosecution of subjects and authorized a single resident magistrate's court to issue prison sentences to those convicted of illegal possession of firearms or ammunition. In July 1975, the Privy Council in London ruled that the Gun Court Act was constitutional. The Privy Council held, however, that mandatory sentences of indefinite detention with hard labor could not legally be imposed by the resident magistrate presiding over the Gun Court. The 1983 Gun Court Amendment Act enabled the resident magistrate courts in all parishes except Kingston, St. Andrew, and St. Catherine to decide whether a particular charge would be dealt with in the Resident Magistrate's Court or should be referred to the Gun Court.

Click and scroll down for Gun Court Info.

Tropicana to Herself: Your memory is better than you think. You go girl.

I throw this question out to my fellow boardites. Given the escalation of violence in Jamaica, should the Jamaican Government take drastic action similar to what Manley did in 1974?

Should the Jamaican constituion be amended so that the Privy Council no longer has any jurisdiction?

Did the majority of Jamaicans support the original Gun Court Act in 1974 (if we could only dig up the relevant Carl Stone poll)?

Do you think the majority of Jamaicans would support such measures?

Speaking of Carl Stone:

Despite Jamaica's well-developed judicial system, it and the police force were widely criticized in the mid-1980s because of dramatic increases in political and criminal violence. Many believed that the judicial system had deteriorated and that the authority and dignity of the courts had diminished. Critics noted that many of the new judges and lawyers were not as well educated as in the past and lacked self-confidence. Since the early 1970s, only graduates of the three-year West Indies Faculty of Law or the two-year graduate School of Legal Education have been permitted to practice law in Jamaica, whereas previously most Jamaican lawyers received their legal training in Britain. In February 1986, Carl Stone, Jamaica's leading political scientist, criticized what he referred to as the criminal justice system's corrupt practice of bribing juries and rendering corrupt judgments in favor of those who have political or economic power.

http://www.onlinelearning.net/instru...rib/jamca.html

Is Carl Stone still around?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Originally posted by Tropicana:
[qb]

As for the big man son that was arrested I don't know.

Dr. Dudd, Fledgist, Britisha, Afer, can you help us out here.

Spy Robinson was a man already convicted I think of 15 firearm offences that was introduced to Michael Manley by D. K. Duncan.

What was Spy Robinson's first name. I can't find anything about him on the net. I DO remember hearing something about the Spy Robinson affair but it was SO far back in my memory that other thatn the term "Spy Robinson affair" I don't recall any of the details. They don't ring a bell with me now either. Thank you for filling in those gaps Tuff Gong.

What ever became of D.K. Duncan? I recall hearing (during the 1976 election) that he was quite the...ahem...statistician. [/qb]

I Think his name was Alfred but I am not sure, I am pretty sure you wont be able to find it on the search engines, it was not so safe to talk and write about these things before.

As to where you can find the information on Spy Robinson and the sordid affair of the 70's.

The Gleaner Archives
DR D K Duncan writes a column in the Gleaner
Peter Espuet writes a column in the Gleaner
Mark Wignal writes a column in the Observer
Dawn Rich writes a column in the Gleaner
Motty Perkins has a call in show on Power 106 FM
Fledg is here; he is very, very knowledgeable.

These are persons and sources that I am 100% sure will give you any information you need.

[Tropicana]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Thanks Tuff Gong.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Originally posted by Tropicana:
[qb] Thanks Tuff Gong. [/qb]

You are welcome.

One other thing that plays a great part in Jamaica not attracting or maximizing our investments is the price and security of labour.

This is directly related to the historical role of the Unions. They hold such a great power having directly led to the formation or the initial support for both political parties.

I still cannot understand it though on this Board called jamaicans.com you would expect so much more participation on things Jamaica especially discussions involving politics and the economy.

I mean today is International Beach Clean up Day, this whole weekend it he PNP Party Conference, which have all kinds of implications of who will be our men or women of leadership in the future.

I find it mind boggling and scary. What is the future of Jamaica if Jamaicans are not interested?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Okay Ms Tropicana to keep this post legal and International I am going to switch gears a little and give you a scoop.

Go back to school, study International Relations, concentrate on Modern China, then a job in the China, Canada or Jamaica in a Chinese firm or government agency it will pay off big time for you.

I will tell you two things one is straight forward. There is a delegation from Curacao in Jamaica. Why?
Their greatest returns from tourism are from Jamaicans who shop in their Free Zone, there have been a little fall off and they there to make sure the Christmas Shopping Season will see the usual contingent of Jamaican Shopping Tourist.

There is another delegation in Jamaica The Chinese. It was rumored earlier in the week that the Chinese are interested in making the area from Three Miles to Windward Road Round-A-Bout one big Free Zone. Why?
My guess:
Fact, the collective inflow of foreign investments into Latin American and the Caribbean are down while inflows to China have increased.

So why don't the Chinese just don't keep the money in China where they have all the cheap labour?
Answers:
Terrorism/threat of terrorism:
Can cause disruption and extra security that means extra hassles, so they need a secured port closer to their markets in the Americas.

WTO:
Might not yet be a reality but the FTA is more of a realization so factories based in the FTA will automatically guarantee them access.

The Competition :
Latin America except for Mexico cannot get their act together and stop fighting so the Chinese want to position themselves to deal effectively with Mexico.

Japan, in the East and waning
South Korea, in the East still strong
Taiwan, in the East still strong, but in dispute with China
Other Asian and Eastern Countries, are in various positions to challenge but Terrorism has virtually made it impossible for them to expand out of their region.
Africa no factor

The markets:
All of Latin America, The USA, The Caribbean and the big fish Cuba in five years.

So how will they manage this in the labour market of the Jamaica and the threat of violence and drug export? The Chinese have done their homework, they know they will need to control the whole thing and that the Government of Jamaica having nothing else to sell will have to lay low, count the dollars, hand over the Port of Kingston, allow the Chinese to buy Alcan and possible the Electricity Company from a Mirant which is struggling.

These are just my theories and may not prove out, but I am pretty sure I am close to the ball.

[Fledgist]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Originally posted by Tropicana:
[qb]

As for the big man son that was arrested I don't know.

Dr. Dudd, Fledgist, Britisha, Afer, can you help us out here.

Spy Robinson was a man already convicted I think of 15 firearm offences that was introduced to Michael Manley by D. K. Duncan.

What was Spy Robinson's first name. I can't find anything about him on the net. I DO remember hearing something about the Spy Robinson affair but it was SO far back in my memory that other thatn the term "Spy Robinson affair" I don't recall any of the details. They don't ring a bell with me now either. Thank you for filling in those gaps Tuff Gong.

What ever became of D.K. Duncan? I recall hearing (during the 1976 election) that he was quite the...ahem...statistician. [/qb]

'Spy' Robinson's first name was Albert.

D.K. Duncan is still pulling teeth in Kingston. I saw him when I was down there this summer.