Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

[Tropicana]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Yes Dr. Dudd, there continue to be significant challenges I agree.

With respect to the point I made earlier about Jamaicans darker than a certain shade being able to get certain jobs (e.g. bank teller), when did that situation change. I am not sure if it was in the 60s or early 70s as I was not living in Jamaica at the time and I was young. What improvements have you noticed w.r.t. opportunities for advancement for Black Jamaicans?

[cassidy72]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

What role did Michael Manley play in all this.He was a privileged white jamaican but then he was also a socialist was he not?

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

The laws that forbade black Jamaicans from holding those jobs were repealed by the JLP government in 1967.
yes it was authored by Mr seaga,during the JLP reign,but it took quite a while before it was really introduced on the ground.
OT was acyually introduced in the waely 70's and it is still yet to be accepted by the controllors of the economy.

Incidentally,black Jamaicans could not be guesrs at either the hotels owned by the Issas,nor worl as store clerks in any of Issas or other stores in Kingston.
If course those were the 'good old days' yeh right...........
Jamaica had foreign reserves,not as much as it does now,but it did not have any housing stock. there were no Portmore,Duhaney Park,havendale beverly Hills,no wighways,no New Kingston,diwn tiwn was King St and half Way Tree was just The clock. therr were no malls,Crodd roads was Carib.
Jamaica was avery primitive place,more so than it is today.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Michael Manley was provilidge and JJamaican,but was defonately not white.

Manley's major role was tp change the way black Jamaican see themselves in relation to the copuntry.
Before Manley,black Jamaicans were only seen as laborors,or potential laborors,nothing more.
they were suppose to be the means by which the others achieve amd m,aintain wealth,using the country's other factors of proiduction to achieve their aims.

They have successfully brainwashed majority of the educated,thaay those supposedly educateddo not realize that the wealthy would be no where without them.
They do not realize that the expensive education that they aquire sole purpose is to make the rich rich,in exchange doe a middle class life.

[Tropicana]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Cassidy, Manley wasn't White. He was mixed. His parents were 1st cousins, Edna Manley and the Honourable Norman Wasthington Manley one of our Prime Ministers and National Heroes.

OT was acyually introduced in the waely 70's and it is still yet to be accepted by the controllors of the economy.

Yes I recalled this. I moved back to Jamaica shortly after this legislation came into effect. I remember a lot of middle class people squawking about it. Some of those poor household helpers had their jobs cut or had their hours reduced substantially. At the time they were only being paid J$20 per week (or was it J$26 per week) and that was an improvement.

Re: housing....when did Mona Heights and Hope Pastures go in. Those were middle class areas and some of the Black families who had started out life under humble circumstances and moved up by access to educational opportunities settled in those areas? What about Harbourview? I remember visiting a cousin their as a child and the area seemed fairly new to me anyway?

W.r.t. the hotels and beaches, I heard that there was a time when Blacks were not allowed on Doctor's Cave beach. Is that true Dr. Dudd? When did it change? Also, I have seen photos of the Myrtl Bank hotel in . It was torn down when I was quite young I gather. I never had a chance to see it. I had heard that Black people weren't allowed to go there either. Is that true? Did it ever change? There were similar restrictions at the tennis clubs I have been told.

The laws that forbade black Jamaicans from holding those jobs were repealed by the JLP government in 1967.

Now this is new to me and shocking!! I knew that people could not obtain certain jobs but I never realized tht there were laws that prevented this. Unbelievable!!

Some of the Black people who first moved into positions such as Bank teller jobs had a WARM time. There was a well publicized case an older relative shared with me. I won't give the name of the case but if someone else wants to it's up to them. Apparently, this young, light skinned Jamaican woman was working in the bank. She was described in the press as a "fair beauty" and apparently she had been presented to the Queen on her visit to Jamaica. Anyway, this was just when things were starting to open up a bit in the banking sector. I am sure you will know the case Dr. Dudd and help us out as to year. Apparently, a darker complexioned woman was hired to work at the bank as a teller I believe. The fair young lady objected and protested because she felt (these were her words) that the Black young lady "looked like a maid". I heard she even sent around a petition to get the Black out.

Anyway, to make a long story short, this young lady eventually becaome engaged to a White Canadian man. When she flew to Canada for the engagement parties, etc., the family was shocked. The fiance had not mentioned that this "fair" young lady was Black. He had only said that the young lady was Jamaican. The parties were cancelled. The couple flew back to Jamaica and married there. Shortly after returning to Canada, the man was fired from his job. The case went before the courts. I don't recall how the case was settled. Perhaps you remember Dr. Dudd.

Anyway, just a peek at the inner workings of the Jamaican class colour system and race relations dynamics. It is important to let our young people know these stories. FAR too many assume that things have always been the way they see them today. They don't realize that a lot of these changes were relatively recent and that our people had to push and fight hard for opportunities at home and abroad. Dr. Dudd, Britisha, Afer, Fledgist, Tuff Gong, Afer, and others. Please poke your head in here and tell us more about what you know. Bigabroad, we need you to help us flesh out the human side behind the statistics, etc. re: Asia. I can add a bit about what I have observed when I have been to Asia but I am not an expert. Living in a country and working their for a few weeks on and off would not give one the same perspective on things.

I will try to finish the basic facts, figures and comparative data tonight.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Originally posted by cassidy72:
[qb] What role did Michael Manley play in all this.He was a privileged white jamaican but then he was also a socialist was he not? [/qb]

Yes he was a privileged White-Jamaican from one of the most privileged Jamaican Family in Jamaica.

He was not Socialist; he used the cover of socialism to divide Jamaica along Racists, Shade-ist and class lines.
Driving out huge numbers of other white, black, educated and monied people out of the Island.

Not only that he more than any other Prime Minister in Jamaica used thugs, criminals and the subjugation of the justice system to remain in power in Jamaica to the benefit of his class and their corrupt brand of politics.

Every Jamaican on this Board knows what a White-Jamaican is, in fact the definition is so ingrained, that PJoke Patterson was able to claim that he was the first Black Prime minister and the his Government is a Black Man's Government, this is also against the background that Hugh Lawson Shearer a cousin of the Menlie's was darker version of the preceding Prime Ministers.

The funny thing is some illiterate respondents in this post will tell you that Singapore is a fascist Country and Barbados is a Racist Country.
I used to live in Barbados and I know a tiny bit about Singapore, I would say based on that these comments are without any merits.

[Tropicana]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:

Originally posted by cassidy72:
What role did Michael Manley play in all this.He was a privileged white jamaican but then he was also a socialist was he not?

Yes he was a privileged White-Jamaican from one of the most privileged Jamaican Family in Jamaica.

How can you say that Michael Manley was WHITE when he was of mixed ancestry? I never saw his father in person but from the photos, he clearly is a Black man and would be considered to be Black just about anywhere in the world.

He was not Socialist; he used the cover of socialism to divide Jamaica along Racists, Shade-ist and class lines.

Driving out huge numbers of other white, black, educated and monied people out of the Island.

I agree that he was not a socialist. Now this we can debate. Maybe I am still seeing him through the naivity of my youth, I don't know. I felt his motives were pure and that he really did have the best interests of the country at heart. Some of his rhetoric frightened the monied and educated people (e.g. the flights to Miami speech). Yes, some of our brightest and most skilled citizens did take him up on his offer and high tail it out of Jamaica. Some are still freezing their bottoms in placing like Toronto. Others like Morris Cargill quickly returned to Jamaica after leaving with much fanfare during the Manley era. I remember his columns as it were yesterday. Some how he did not announce his return with as much vigour.

[QUOTE]
Not only that he more than any other Prime Minister in Jamaica used thugs, criminals and the subjugation of the justice system to remain in power in Jamaica to the benefit of his class and their corrupt brand of politics.

More than Blindaga (or Spyaga)? That's not the impression that I have been given by people I know who have lived in Jamaica continuously since the 1970s. My impression may be incorrect. These individuals are PNP supporters. I have no firsthand knowledge of these matters. I look forward to hearing other opinions about this one.

Every Jamaican on this Board knows what a White-Jamaican is, in fact the definition is so ingrained, that PJoke Patterson was able to claim that he was the first Black Prime minister and the his Government is a Black Man's Government, this is also against the background that Hugh Lawson Shearer a cousin of the Menlie's was darker version of the preceding Prime Ministers.

Yes I have heard PJ make speeches along those lines when he has visited Toronto (he brings it up EVERY time he is here along with the rhetoric about "Black man time". W.r.t. the so-called White Jamaican thing, I guess I have a different POV since I did not grow up in Jamaica. Perhaps people who live in Jamaica consider them to be White.....people who live elsewhere see them as any old...oops.... that word is not allowed on the board. I have seen what happens to some of these Jamaicans who were labouring under the illusion that they were White. I have watched some of them have a RUDE awakening upon migration to Canada. (I have already shared one such story earlier on in this thread.) Some of them go on to be SO Black conscious all of a sudden and start spouting all this rhetoric about being Black. When I see it it makes me HOWL with laughter.

[img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img]

Mi noh know which part a dem White. Dem FOOT BATTAM?????

So, no I don't consider them to be White and people outside of Jamaica don't consider them to be White. I guess I have lived long enough among real WHITE people to be able to spot the difference.



Bustamante's mother was Black and a roots Jamaican woman. (A quote about her from a biography about Busta was that she used to "go a grung" like everybody else.) Grandma Shearer was MOST displeased when Bustamante's father (Clarke) married her. How ANYONE can look pon Hugh Shearer and say he isn't Black is beyond me!!! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] So, I won't even BOTHER to comment on that one.

The funny thing is some illiterate respondents in this post will tell you that Singapore is a fascist Country and Barbados is a Racist Country.
I used to live in Barbados and I know a tiny bit about Singapore, I would say based on that these comments are without any merits.

I can't make any comments about Barbados. I have only ever been as far as the airport en route to Trinidad. W.r.t Singapore, I am no expert. However, when I have been to Singapore on business, I saw no evidence of it being a fascist country. I did see some very strict regulations that some may find repressive (i.e. the chewing gum thing is a bit much IMHO but I understand why they introduced it). I have no problem with strict laws re: littering and drug trafficking (the firing squad is going a bit too far IMHO). I also have a problem with over regulation of the press but saw no evidence of it when I was in Singapore. Perhaps I was not there long enough to notice it.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Originally posted by cassidy72:
What role did Michael Manley play in all this.He was a privileged white jamaican but then he was also a socialist was he not?

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:Yes he was a privileged White-Jamaican from one of the most privileged Jamaican Family in Jamaica.

Originally posted by Tropicana: How can you say that Michael Manley was WHITE when he was of mixed ancestry? I never saw his father in person but from the photos, he clearly is a Black man and would be considered to be Black just about anywhere in the world.

I will let the other questions rest for a minute.
You see such miscues would not come up if we didn't have such foolish notions about colour and its relationship to power in Jamaica, so much so that a person two shades lighter than you that have traceable white relatives could be considered anything other than a Black Person.

Even without the qualifications of traceable white relatives you can still be a Brown-Man if you fail the skin test but pass the class-test.

So in the spirit of which the question was asked and with the qualification of White-Jamaican, I answered in the affirmative.

[Tropicana]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

You see the problem would not come up in we didn't have such foolish notions about colour, that in Jamaica and person two shades lighter than you and have traceable white relatives could considered anything other than a Black Person.

Agreed

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Michael manley did more for racial justice in Jamaica than any other leader,including Bustamante.
May people blame him for'creating' racial division.bur he did not create it. He simply admittied it was there and demanded it be recignizes and dealt with.
This ofcourse resulted in the back lash from the privilidge class,but for those who are not aware Kongston had to Race wars in the previous JLP administration. One against the Jamaicans of Chinese decent and the other againat just about every other shade,in addition to the riot that ensued because Ridney was banned frin returning to Jamaica.
Now what the government did in both cases os call pout the military,insalll a curfew,and shoot a few black Jamaicans.
There were no attempt to adress the sause of the greviances.
We just went back to where we were before the riots.
This was not created by Michael Manley,he simply was the only Jamaican of his class or colour that had the guts to face it and do sometghing about it.
So those ultra-educated in our mids that make a greater effort in being uncouth in their responce can expound from the resovior of knowledge but it would help if they got their facts,before exposing their manners.

Only on the internet,....

[Tropicana]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Thank you Dr. Dudd. This would be a good time for me to edit the Jamaica profile and add information about the Rodney affair. I had heard about it from a friend of mine who was in high school at the time. I understand that the Shearer government banned a number of Black power books. Is that understanding correct? I have number of questions about that era in Jamaica. I will edit the Jamaican profile section of this thread and begin to add information about race relations to that section. I hope that boardites who were raised in Jamaica and old enough to remember what happened will help us out with some answers. Thanks.

Also, boardites, can we please continue this thread without taking pot shots at each other? We all love our country dearly and we're all concerned about the struggles and challenges Jamaica continues to face. Some of us have had the benefit of formal education and some of us haven't. It's a result of the inequities in Jamaican society. We have MUCH to learn from each other. Boardites like Dr. Dudd, Fledgist and Afer remember important and valuable information about which some of us have little or no knowledge because they lived in Jamaica during the era which we are discussing. Tuff Gong, Britisha and I have vivid memories of a different phase of this era as we were younger when these events took place. My POV as a Jamaican raised overseas during this era is different from that of some other boardites. I think that we have MUCH to share and MUCH to learn from each other.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Originally posted by Dr.Dudd:
[qb] Michael manley did more for racial justice in Jamaica than any other leader,including Bustamante.
May people blame him for'creating' racial division.bur he did not create it. He simply admittied it was there and demanded it be recignizes and dealt with.
This ofcourse resulted in the back lash from the privilidge class,but for those who are not aware Kongston had to Race wars in the previous JLP administration. One against the Jamaicans of Chinese decent and the other againat just about every other shade,in addition to the riot that ensued because Ridney was banned frin returning to Jamaica.
Now what the government did in both cases os call pout the military,insalll a curfew,and shoot a few black Jamaicans.
There were no attempt to adress the sause of the greviances.
We just went back to where we were before the riots.
This was not created by Michael Manley,he simply was the only Jamaican of his class or colour that had the guts to face it and do sometghing about it.
So those ultra-educated in our mids that make a greater effort in being uncouth in their responce can expound from the resovior of knowledge but it would help if they got their facts,before exposing their manners.

Only on the internet,.... [/qb]

Look you do not have any facts. You have never provided any facts about the ******* you write. As to been uncouth you have a lock on that.

I lived in the Jamaica I saw the effects of Michael Manlie Racist Policies. Jamaica is still paying for that kind of misguided policy.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:
Not only that he more than any other Prime Minister in Jamaica used thugs, criminals and the subjugation of the justice system to remain in power in Jamaica to the benefit of his class and their corrupt brand of politics.

Originally posted by Tropicana: More than Blindaga (or Spyaga)? That's not the impression that I have been given by people I know who have lived in Jamaica continuously since the 1970s. My impression may be incorrect. These individuals are PNP supporters. I have no firsthand knowledge of these matters. I look forward to hearing other opinions about this one.

Here we see that your question is one of degree and not of objection. When the evidence is provided and looked it will be seen that both Men engaged in acts against the people of Jamaica that patriots would not engage in.

Consider this however when Michael Manlie was in power he and his secret cabinet including PJoke Patterson, David Coore, and Keble Munn decided they needed to lock up a few labourites and critics of their style of Government and the Blindaga was about to embarrass Manlie over allegations that he gave a gun to a fifteen time convicted man because the man bought to Manlie by D. K. Duncan offered to spy on the Labourites.

All of this led to a State of Emergency to summarily took away peoples rights to free movement, free speech and association.

The same Manlie invented the gun court, in camera trials before one judge, so one judge could without a jury determine whether you get locked away for the rest of your life on the accusation of a police officer.

The next bit of crime committed on the Jamaica people is the Suppression of Crime Act, which the JLP eventually incorporated into the police regulations.

[dre4792]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:
Look you do not have any facts. You have never provided any facts about the ******** you write. As to been uncouth you have a lock on that.

I lived in the Jamaica I saw the effects of Michael Manlie Racist Policies. Jamaica is still paying for that kind of misguided policy. [/QB]

Someone forgot a few Prozac doses. Either that, or you're suffering from Turrets(sp)Syndrome. I cannot believe you of all people are behaving in this manner. Jeeeeze!!! You just proved Doc correct..dyam

Anyway Tropicana, please continue.....

xxbig

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Here we see that your question is one of degree and not of objection. When the evidence is provided and looked it will be seen that both Men engaged in acts against the people of Jamaica that patriots would not engage in.

Consider this however when Michael Manlie was in power he and his secret cabinet including PJoke Patterson, David Coore, and Keble Munn decided they needed to lock up a few labourites and critics of their style of Government and the Blindaga was about to embarrass Manlie over allegations that he gave a gun to a fifteen time convicted man because the man bought to Manlie by D. K. Duncan offered to spy on the Labourites.

All of this led to a State of Emergency to summarily took away peoples rights to free movement, free speech and association.

The same Manlie invented the gun court, in camera trials before one judge, so one judge could without a jury determine whether you get locked away for the rest of your life on the accusation of a police officer.

The next bit of crime committed on the Jamaica people is the Suppression of Crime Act, which the JLP eventually incorporated into the police

Michael manley was actually reacting ti the most violent and murderour period of Jamaican history. he was actually attempting to fight againsr the covert actions of the CIA which at the time along withe ptivate sector and the JLP was involved ina campaign of sanotage of the country. this was being done under the guise of fighting communism. Of curse every real economist and ithers would know that Manley was not communist. He was nor even a sicialist.
He simply wanted to change the world economic policies,that forces countries like Jamaica to supply raw materials to developed countries at almist nothoing.
Jamaica was supplying Bauxite at 10c US per ton then Norman manley raised it to US$5 per ton.
Tthen the companies would short report the tonnage. This was only one aspect of the sort of underhanded act by the companoes that controlled our resources.