Re: Patois origins and influences...did u know that

**evanovitch** · 03-01-2005, 01:44 PM

Re: Re: Patois origins and influences...did u know that

Originally posted by Soul Hunter:
[qb]
mi coulda get bonus a work if dem recognize it as a language yu know! cho [img]/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [/qb]

[img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img]

**Fledgist** · 03-02-2005, 03:29 PM

Re: Re: Patois origins and influences...did u know that

Originally posted by evanovitch:
[qb] "at the level of vocabulary, some common Jamaican words derive from Bantu, a major languagefamily.....

{Fledgist: While I love and respect Maureen, linguistics and philology aren't her field. Nor mine, come to think of it. I looked up these words in the Dictionary of Jamaican English by Cassidy and LePage. See below for what I found.}

dundus 'albino' from ndundu 'albino

{Fledgist: The Dictionary of Jamaican English says this, deriving it from KiKongo.}

mampala 'effeminate, indecisive' in respect of males deriving from 'mumpala 'young man; childishness; beauty' and mampala 'beauty

{Fledgist: The DJE states that this word derives from the American Spanish 'mampolón, a common cock, not a fighting cock.'
butu 'crass, unseemly behaviour; person given to outlanddishness' from buutu 'crowd, rabble'

{Fledgist: The DJE's definition of 'butu' ist 'to stoop down, to squat on the heels', suggesting that the use of 'butu' to mean a worthless person is a neologism, perhaps derived from the original 'butu' -- which the DJE states is of Twi and Ewe, not Bantu, origin.}

laba-laba 'a gossip, to talk inadvisedly' from laba 'to talk ceaselessly'

{Fledgist: The DJE derives this from the English dialect word 'lab', to blab.}

kombolo 'friend, fraternity' from kombula 'to assemble, to group'

{Fledgist: The DJE states that 'the word seems to be primarily the name of an African song-dance, in which the phrase "we all a Combolo" meant we all are dancing the Combolo. It notes the similarity of the Latin American word 'compa' derived from the Spanish 'compadre' or 'compañero', and compares it to a Cuban word, 'cúmbila', friend. It also notes that other African words may be involved, citing the Kimbundu 'camba', comrade,mate.}

bandulu 'crookery' derived from Koongo bandululu 'distorted, dirtied'

{[b]Fledgist: This word is not in the DJE, nor in the Supplement. This would seem to indicate that it's a neologism, which makes an African derivation unlikely.[/i]}

samfai 'to deceive; a confidence trickster' from sa mampia 'to be sly, cunning'

{Fledgist: The DJE says the etymology is probably African, and suggests the Ewe 'samedzi', magic sign, or the Twi 'asumànfó', owner of a charm, magician, as possible sources. The first definition given is 'an obeahman', the second, a confidence trixter.}

kukumkum as in the idiom 'maaga like kukumkum' based on kukuma 'to shake as if about to fall

{Fledgist: Not in the DJE. May be a neologism.}

mampi 'fat, chubby' from mapaala 'big fat'

{Fledgist: Not in the DJE.}

bufu , bufutu 'fat and ungainly' from buufu 'big in size'

{Fledgist: The DJE gives 'buffo' and 'buffu', and derives the word from Ewe and Twi words meaning broad and thick, and swollen (I don't give the words because non-standard phonetic characters are used).}

bati 'posterior' normally spelt 'batty', coming from mbassi 'cleft between the two buttocks';

{Fledgist: The DJE gives this as derived from the English 'buttocks', with possible dialectal English and/or Scots influence.}

bombo 'vagina'
bombo -klaat 'menstrual cloth', bombo being cognate with mbombo 'anus' and bombo 'wetness, clotted matter'

{Fledgist: A wha dis, madarata a cuss pon di board? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] The DJE gives this as '*****' probably of African origin and notes a Zulu affix '-bombo', pubic region. However it also suggests a concurrent influence from the English 'bum' and the American Spanish 'bombo', both meaning the buttocks. 'Klaat', or 'clate' as Orlando Patterson spelled it, is of course, of English origin.}}

punani 'vagina', cognate with funanana 'folded together'

{Fledgist: Surprisingly, not in DJE. I did, however, find 'pumpum', which is of Twi origin.}

(taken from Jamaica's Central Africa Heritage by Maureen Warner-Lewis, vol 28 Nos 2-3, Jamaica Journal [/qb]

Maureen has long had an interest in Yoruba elements in Caribbean culture.

**Guest** · 03-02-2005, 03:37 PM

Re: Re: Patois origins and influences...did u know that

dundus 'albino' from ndundu 'albino

{Fledgist: The Dictionary of Jamaican English says this, deriving it from KiKongo.}

Are you saying the original statement is incorrect? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Kikongo is a Bantu language of the Kongo used as a lingua franca in the southern Republic of the Congo, the western Democratic Republic of the Congo (formerly Zaire), and northern Angola.

Ndundu is a word in Lingala (another Bantu language) also spoken in the Dem. Repub. of Congo. My friends who speak Lingala use it.

**neochin** · 03-02-2005, 04:18 PM

Re: Re: Patois origins and influences...did u know that

hey, the best one that is directly derived from an african tongue that almost ALL jamaicans use is : "unnu".

and i thought punnany was an indian word....

**barosa** · 03-02-2005, 09:52 PM

Re: Re: Patois origins and influences...did u know that

Evan, as you have shown, many of our words are rooted in various African languages... As children, answers as to the meanings and origins of "certain words" eluded us, because our dictionaries were inadequate where "these words" were concerned. We dared not approach our elders because we were not supposed to know those words and so we suffered in silence, and I believed because of that, our vocabularies got short changed. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

We eventually had some ideas of the meanings by the way the general pubic re-acted to them, added to that, was our own "imaginations" of what they really meant... These exercises were ones that were usually called for confirmation by our peers. As boys we learnt quickly, and developed the art of "pronounciation" trying to outdo each other as good students are wont to do.

One thing Jamaicans instinctive knew and readily accepted, was the idea that the fattest and the most powerful ones were of African origin. Where Else?...No wonder the British had to pass laws to make them illegal after they got to understand what they meant. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

---------------------
The most important truths are likely to be those which...society at that time least wants to hear : W. H. Auden

**JamaicaDaye** · 03-02-2005, 10:54 PM

Re: Re: Patois origins and influences...did u know that

I dont buy it. 'kukumkum' was a slang for the sound of bones and that slang came directly from a dj's mind.
punani is also a kind of slang that came directly from another dj's mind of the late '80's early '90s. There is no record of that word's existence in the jamaican dialect before that.

most of the unique jamaican words are a distortion of an english word, used often in a sentence until overtime two words form one and thus may take on a new meaning all by itself.

look at 'moutamassy'. it really is "mouth have mercy" or raass. it really is 'your aass'. over time the yuh was dropped and the word became a "bad word" that can be used in various other ways.
granted, words like unnoo may very well be inherited from some african languages but the vast majority didn't.

**ivan miller** · 03-03-2005, 06:20 AM

Re: Re: Patois origins and influences...did u know that

The term dundus is used to discribe a black person who has copper colloured skin and hair. Most often with freckles. The dundus is normal and produces melanin.

There was a tribe in Africa that fought for King Leopold II that was discribed as coppor coloured. We do not know that as it may be share propoganda.Dundus may very well be an African word.

The albino is incapable of producing colour pigmentation or melanin in skin, hair and eyes. He is overly sensitive to light. His skin is whitish.

Albino crosses racial lines, the dundus does not.

The word Albino is derived from the Latin word 'albus' meaning 'white, dead white or glittering white.' A Roman citizen with these characteristics carried the last name; 'Albinus.' regardless of race.

**Guest** · 03-03-2005, 07:21 AM

Re: Re: Patois origins and influences...did u know that

My friends use 'ndundu' when referring to Yellowman, for example. I use 'dundus' - apparently I am mistaken although I've never heard a Jamaican chatting patois use the word 'albinos'. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

I don't buy the idea that traces Jamaican speech patterns to deformed English as if we don't come from anywhere. Or is it only the very dark that Jamaicans have any traceable African origin, every cultural aspect having been superceded by the English, etc.?

And another thing: influence works both ways, so some of these 'English' and 'Spanish' words could very well be derived from African languages. The English and Spanish being the first to *write* them so misleading as to the real origin.

**Fledgist** · 03-03-2005, 11:14 AM

Re: Re: Patois origins and influences...did u know that

Originally posted by BlackStar:
[qb]

dundus 'albino' from ndundu 'albino

{Fledgist: The Dictionary of Jamaican English says this, deriving it from KiKongo.}

Are you saying the original statement is incorrect? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Kikongo is a Bantu language of the Kongo used as a lingua franca in the southern Republic of the Congo, the western Democratic Republic of the Congo (formerly Zaire), and northern Angola.

Ndundu is a word in Lingala (another Bantu language) also spoken in the Dem. Repub. of Congo. My friends who speak Lingala use it. [/qb]

No. I'm saying that the DJE agrees with Maureen, and provides a more precise source than simply 'Bantu'.

**Fledgist** · 03-03-2005, 11:24 AM

Re: Re: Patois origins and influences...did u know that

Originally posted by BlackStar:
[qb] My friends use 'ndundu' when referring to Yellowman, for example. I use 'dundus' - apparently I am mistaken although I've never heard a Jamaican chatting patois use the word 'albinos'. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

I don't buy the idea that traces Jamaican speech patterns to deformed English as if we don't come from anywhere. Or is it only the very dark that Jamaicans have any traceable African origin, every cultural aspect having been superceded by the English, etc.?

And another thing: influence works both ways, so some of these 'English' and 'Spanish' words could very well be derived from African languages. The English and Spanish being the first to *write* them so misleading as to the real origin. [/qb]

Undoubtedly influence works both ways. Patwa, however, is a creole of *English*, and the basic vocabulary is English. According to Cassidy in Jamaica Talk only about ten percent of words used in Patwa are of African origin.

I doubt that a dialectal term from northern England is of African origin. It is possible, of course, for words in Latin American Spanish to have African origins.

Patwa contains words of Hindi and Chinese origin as well.

Remember, Patwa evolved from a pidgin developed to ensure communication between slaves and their masters. It's interesting to note that both English and French Creoles in the Caribbean show a significant degree of retention of archaisms from the European languages from which most of their vocabularies come. Caribbean Spanish, too, shows both significant African influence and significant archaism.

**evanovitch** · 03-03-2005, 11:26 AM

Re: Re: Patois origins and influences...did u know that

Originally posted by BlackStar:
[qb] My friends use 'ndundu' when referring to Yellowman, for example. I use 'dundus' - apparently I am mistaken although I've never heard a Jamaican chatting patois use the word 'albinos'. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

I don't buy the idea that traces Jamaican speech patterns to deformed English as if we don't come from anywhere. Or is it only the very dark that Jamaicans have any traceable African origin, every cultural aspect having been superceded by the English, etc.?

And another thing: influence works both ways, so some of these 'English' and 'Spanish' words could very well be derived from African languages. The English and Spanish being the first to *write* them so misleading as to the real origin. [/qb]

thank u for saying this...wanted to but this cold have me too lazy fi write too much

**neochin** · 03-03-2005, 11:37 AM

Re: Re: Patois origins and influences...did u know that

i think some of those are stretches. if you want a real representation of what came from what read the jamaican english dictionary.

**Guest** · 03-04-2005, 09:02 AM

Re: Re: Patois origins and influences...did u know that

More food for thought: the word "tallawa" is commonly thought to come from the English stalwart. However, many now believe it comes from the Ewe (Ghanaian language) word, "talala". Go figure, but to me the Ghanaian origin makes sense.

In any case, African languages in general seem to suffer from a lack of serious, scholarly study making it easy to discount or disregard their influences on other languages.

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]Patwa contains words of Hindi and Chinese origin as well. [/qb]

Language influences as well as cuisine, dreadlocks, and so on.

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]No. I'm saying that the DJE agrees with Maureen, and provides a more precise source than simply 'Bantu'. [/qb]

Thanks for clearing that up. I had misunderstood.

**Fledgist** · 03-07-2005, 03:36 PM

Re: Re: Patois origins and influences...did u know that

Originally posted by BlackStar:
[qb] More food for thought: the word "tallawa" is commonly thought to come from the English stalwart. However, many now believe it comes from the Ewe (Ghanaian language) word, "talala". Go figure, but to me the Ghanaian origin makes sense.

{Fledgist: I'm not near my DJE right now, but I'd venture to say that the two words probably reinforced each other.}

In any case, African languages in general seem to suffer from a lack of serious, scholarly study making it easy to discount or disregard their influences on other languages.

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]Patwa contains words of Hindi and Chinese origin as well. [/qb]

Language influences as well as cuisine, dreadlocks, and so on.

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]No. I'm saying that the DJE agrees with Maureen, and provides a more precise source than simply 'Bantu'. [/qb]

Thanks for clearing that up. I had misunderstood. [/qb]

It's just that Bantu refers to an entire subfamily of languages, only some of which are likely to have had an influence on Patwa.

Re: Patois origins and influences...did u know that

Re: Patois origins and influences...did u know that

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