Who are foreigners in the House?

[RichD]

Re: Who are foreigners in the House?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: remo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what is he requirement for US congress? </div></div>

To become a U.S. citizen you have to renounce you country of origin </div></div>

not true

ETA ...renoucement of citizenship is a legal process..im sure not many of the jamaican born amrican citizens on here have done this....the fee is JAD$30,000 last time a checked

[SmoothOperator]

Re: Who are foreigners in the House?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: remo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what is he requirement for US congress? </div></div>

To become a U.S. citizen you have to renounce you country of origin </div></div>

not true

ETA ...renoucement of citizenship is a legal process..im sure not many of the jamaican born amrican citizens on here have done this....the fee is JAD$30,000 last time a checked </div></div>

That is correct I am sure. The US Oath of Allegiance has what sounds like a renunciation clause but in modern times all it means is that in the eyes of the US government you are a citizen of the US and must come to the table as such in all your dealings with the government. So if you move back a yard yu still have to file taxes like everybody else come April 15TH, you can't say that because you are a Jamaican citizen you don't have to pay up to Uncle Sam. Renunciation of Jamaican citizenship can only occur if somebody goes through the formal legal process at a Jamaican consulate or embassy. And so far as I know there is no provision against dual citizens in US congress - I am sure there are foreign born congressmen and women who have not renounced the citizenship of their birth.

[bee_bop]

Re: Who are foreigners in the House?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: remo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what is he requirement for US congress? </div></div>

To become a U.S. citizen you have to renounce you country of origin </div></div>

not true

ETA ...renoucement of citizenship is a legal process..im sure not many of the jamaican born amrican citizens on here have done this....the fee is JAD$30,000 last time a checked </div></div>

Littleman says:
<span style="color: #660000">What RichD says is true, no one is required to renounce their original citizenship. Haitians have a law, that has very ancient origins, that requires people who adopt another country's citizenship to renounce their Haitian citizenship, but that is a very old law, made before the world became a small global village, so to speak.</span>

[remo]

Re: Who are foreigners in the House?

Anyone who wishes to become a citizen or permanent resident of the U.S. are required to renounce their prior citizenship as part of the naturalization procedure

Rules against dual citizenship still apply to some extent -- at least in theory -- to people who wish to become US citizens via naturalization. The Supreme Court chose to leave in place the requirement that new citizens must renounce their old citizenship during US naturalization.
However, in practice, the State Department is no longer doing anything in the vast majority of situations where a new citizen's "old country" refuses to recognize the US renunciation and continues to consider the person's original citizenship to be in effect

[evanovitch]

Danville walks - Director of elections resigns over US citiz

Danville walks - Director of elections resigns over US citizenship
published: Tuesday | May 6, 2008

Edmond Campbell, Senior News Coordinator


Electoral officials have started a frantic search for a new director of elections following yesterday's sudden resignation of Danville Walker.

Walker who had held the position for 10 years, resigned at a time when there is much speculation about a 'snap election'.

Nominated member of the Electoral Commission of Jamaica (ECJ), Dr Herbert Thompson, yesterday confirmed that Walker stepped aside, following mounting pressure, after it was revealed in court that he had sworn allegiance to a foreign power.
"Danville Walker's resignation as director of elections at this time constitutes a grave and unfortunate loss to the electoral system and to Jamaica," Thompson said yesterday.

He castigated the detractors of his former colleague, charging that they wanted to get rid of Walker because he was a no-nonsense person.

"There are those who want Mr Walker's head for a number of different reasons, not the least of which is the fact that Mr Walker is no pushover and and he cannot be trampled upon," he said.

Thompson told The Gleaner that Walker was a "man of principle" who stood firm as the commission sought to fix the electoral system."

He expressed the hope that the country would be able to find a replacement who would bring the same energy and determination to the position of director of elections.

Family decision

Asked why Walker did not denounce his United States citizen-ship and reapply for the job, Thompson said it might have been a decision he made in consultation with his family.

However, he hinted that Walker might have felt a stream of ingratitude for the invaluable contribution he made in helping to reform the electoral process.

"One has to look at the level of gratitude that one gets after one has given up oneself totally to the betterment of this country," he stressed.

The Gleaner was not able to reach Walker for comment yesterday.

Tom Tavares-Finson, Jamaica Labour Party-selected commissioner on the ECJ, said Walker's resig-nation did not come as a surprise.

"He has been a firm and extremely competent director of elections," Tavares-Finson said. "He has provided a remarkable service to his country and the Government of Jamaica is extremely grateful for the contribution he has made."

Call for review

Tavares-Finson said the provisions in the Electoral Commission Act, which disqualified Walker as director of elections, should be reviewed.

Donald Buchanan, one of the PNP's representatives on the ECJ, told The Gleaner last night that Walker contributed significantly to the reform of Jamaica's electoral system.

"He is a true professional and based on the conflict with his status and the law, he did the honourable thing," Buchanan said.

"Other people in Gordon House who find themselves in similar conflict with the law and who call themselves honourable should follow his example," Buchanan added.

In an election petition brought against Daryl Vaz by People's National Party (PNP) candidate for Western Portland, Abe Dabdoub, Walker's eligibility as director of elections was called into question.

Dabdoub's attorneys made a successful bid in the Supreme Court to get the JLP's Vaz ousted as Member of Parliament for West Portland.

The court ruled that Vaz, by virtue of his own act, had pledged allegiance or obedience to the United States and should be disqualified.

[email protected]


Constitutional provision
Section 3 of the Electoral Commission (Interim) Act stipulates that a person shall not be qualified to be a nominated commissioner or director of elections if he

"is, by virtue of his own act, under any acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience or adherence to a foreign power or state.

[evanovitch]

Re: Danville walks - Director of elections resigns over US citiz

Ironies of dual citizenship
published: Tuesday | May 6, 2008

The Editor, Sir:

I find it quite strange that while many of us here in Jamaica join commentators around the world by saying that it would be good for America or indeed the world if Senator Obama is elected president as his family ties and experience of living abroad provide a greater understanding of the world than Mr Bush or any of the other contenders, while at the same time some Jamaicans with dual citizenship cannot set foot in Gordon House!

I have dual citizenship with Britain and I can assure you it was obtained after giving the most productive years of my life to that country, and then a cash payment which at the time to me was a lot of money or lose some of the benefits I have worked for while at the same time sending remittances to Jamaica. It was just a business transaction to secure my future, plain and simple, it does not make me any less of a Jamaican.

Remarkable experience

I will give thanks until the day I die that I had the opportunity to 'live' not just visit or do a course of study in another country, I had the chance to live and work among people who have lived and worked in other countries also, their understanding, respect and the ability to do business with peoples of a different place of birth is quite remarkable.

I am, etc.,

[evanovitch]

Re: Danville walks - Director of elections resigns over US citiz

It has been an honour to serve my country
Statement to the Observer by Director of Elections Danville Walker

Tuesday, May 06, 2008



The court matter of Dabdoub vs Vaz has determined that a person simply holding a United States of America (USA) passport, renewed when over 18 years of age, would be an acknowledgement of allegiance, and, as the USA is considered a foreign power, my holding that country's passport would cause me to be disqualified from holding the post of the director of elections. Although this determination is subject to appeal I have, based on this interpretation and my particular circumstances, decided to resign my appointment.

On Friday, April 11, 2008, the judgment in the matter Dabdoub vs Vaz was handed down, and I have come to a decision.

I have tendered my resignation as the director of elections today, May 5, 2008.

It is my firm view that the law must be upheld, even when it is inconvenient and especially so, by those of us who seek to set an example as public servants.

I wish to also reiterate that I stand firmly behind the press releases issued on August 16, 2007 and August 31, 2007 that were referred to in the judgment and I encourage all who wish to comment on this matter to thoroughly read the judgment before commenting. The returning officer acted properly in accepting the nomination forms and only a court can determine if a candidate is not qualified. We are in that process.

Regarding my personal situation, I was not aware of the disqualification clause in the Electoral Commission Act which was taken from The Representation of the People (Interim Reform) Act and it appears that at my hiring those responsible were not aware either, and further that the clause also applied to them. At the April 23, 2008 meeting of the Commission, the chairman declared, and all independent members followed separately, that neither of them has now nor in the past held citizenship in any foreign country. I hope that puts to rest any speculation about them.

It has been an honour to have served my country as director of elections for the past 11 years. The successes that we have had would not have been possible without the unstinting efforts of the managers and staff of the Electoral Office of Jamaica (EOJ) and those thousands of election day workers who answered the call and signed up to work in our elections, many of you for the first time.

Never let fear or apathy prevent you from coming forward to serve. No mater how insurmountable the problem may appear, we can, with leadership, commitment and resources, overcome and build a better future. It is that belief that continues to give me hope and why my family and I live here when we could live elsewhere.

Do not worry, the Electoral Commission, and by extension, the Electoral Office, has the depth of staff and management to continue producing first-world elections that set us apart from many developing countries. I expect nothing less and we must accept nothing less.

We must commend present and past political administrations for providing the resources for us to deliver our mandate. It could not have been achieved without it.

Let me also say for the record that I am proud that during my tenure in the sensitive post of director of elections, no member of the political community has attempted to intimidate or influence me in any way or by any means.

They deserve our respect as they do a job most of us neither have the desire, courage nor ability to succeed at, and our opinion of them is largely based on what they say about each other. It is a noble profession, politics, and one we should encourage our children and young adults to be a part of, but for the right reasons.

Thank for your support over these years and particularly in the last few months.

[Wahalla]

Re: Danville walks - Director of elections resigns over US citiz

I thought frankly.. wether he had a passport from the US is irrelevant.. HE adminsiter not creates the law.. We dont require any civil servant ot renounce based on having dual citzenship..

As for the MP's.. They should be made to renounce their citzenship of other countries .... in parliment as part of the swearing process and recorded in Hansard..... And a letter should be drafted that each MP signs renouncing their citzenship of US..

Like it or not a great many Jamaicans have citzenship of other countries and if we exclude them there will be a serious problem in future.. We had better get this resolved one way or the other now....

[RichD]

Re: Who are foreigners in the House?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: remo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone who wishes to become a citizen or permanent resident of the U.S. are required to renounce their prior citizenship as part of the naturalization procedure

Rules against dual citizenship still apply to some extent -- at least in theory -- to people who wish to become US citizens via naturalization. The Supreme Court chose to leave in place the requirement that new citizens must renounce their old citizenship during US naturalization.
However, in practice, the State Department is no longer doing anything in the vast majority of situations where a new citizen's "old country" refuses to recognize the US renunciation and continues to consider the person's original citizenship to be in effect </div></div>

US STATE DEPARTMENT ON DUAL NATIONALITY

[Blackstar*]

Re: Danville walks - Director of elections resigns over US c

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for the MP's.. They should be made to renounce their citzenship of other countries .... in parliment as part of the swearing process and recorded in Hansard..... And a letter should be drafted that each MP signs renouncing their citzenship of US..</div></div>
I agree with this. Elected officials in a position to write and pass laws should not have dual nationality, nor should cabinet ministers.

[RichD]

Re: Danville walks - Director of elections resigns over US c

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackStar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for the MP's.. They should be made to renounce their citzenship of other countries .... in parliment as part of the swearing process and recorded in Hansard..... And a letter should be drafted that each MP signs renouncing their citzenship of US..</div></div>
I agree with this. Elected officials in a position to write and pass laws should not have dual nationality, nor should cabinet ministers. </div></div>

what about green card or other type of resident permits?

[SmoothOperator]

Re: Who are foreigners in the House?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: remo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone who wishes to become a citizen or permanent resident of the U.S. are required to renounce their prior citizenship as part of the naturalization procedure

Rules against dual citizenship still apply to some extent -- at least in theory -- to people who wish to become US citizens via naturalization. The Supreme Court chose to leave in place the requirement that new citizens must renounce their old citizenship during US naturalization.
However, in practice, the State Department is no longer doing anything in the vast majority of situations where a new citizen's "old country" refuses to recognize the US renunciation and continues to consider the person's original citizenship to be in effect </div></div>

This is certainly not true for US permanent residents (green card holders) - there is no requirement that one renounces their citizenship of birth or takes the US oath of allegiance since permanent resident status is different from citizenship status.

Naturalized US citizens do not have to legally renounce their prior citizenship. There are some countries that require anyone wishing to become a citizen to surrender any foreign passport they may have and legally renounce their prior citizenship through the consulate of their country of birth. The US has no such requirement.

From the US State department:

http://www.travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another.

Dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country. They are required to obey the laws of both countries. Either country has the right to enforce its laws, particularly if the person later travels there.Most U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States.

[Blackstar*]

Re: Danville walks - Director of elections resigns over US c

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackStar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for the MP's.. They should be made to renounce their citzenship of other countries .... in parliment as part of the swearing process and recorded in Hansard..... And a letter should be drafted that each MP signs renouncing their citzenship of US..</div></div>
I agree with this. Elected officials in a position to write and pass laws should not have dual nationality, nor should cabinet ministers. </div></div>

what about green card or other type of resident permits? </div></div>
In theory, you're not allowed to work outside the US if you have a green card.

With resident permits, one doesn't swear allegiance to that country; one is allowed to live and work and pay taxes there and that's about it really, so I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed. However if a country says permit holders are ineligible for election, I wouldn't think it a grave injustice either.

If you're truly committed to the country where you're elected, it's not a hardship to renounce foreign allegiances or residency.

[evanovitch]

let me ask this to change gears fi a minit

heard it said on Mutty di odda day,by a caller who had been adversely affected by the whole FINSAC drama...she said that the American they had brought in to either run the BOJ or something to do wid FINSAC, ( mi cyant memba juss wat now),she thought he had set unreasonable interest rates so dat him fellow Americans were able to buy up nuff of di disputed biznizes ...an we know dat US citizens went to road in acquiring properties etc from FINSAC

so , given that there was such a person and that he was hired for the BOJ job, is that a real concern...the idea of loyalties....

and going even further, the idea of consultants etc...even now , reading dat the US govt giving grant to JA fi help wid di sale of Air Jam is laffable to moi, unless u think it has to do wid helping some US airline whose lobby has in effect helped this along , wid the idea of coopting Air Jam [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70402-thinking.gif[/img]

so wat oonoo tink [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70402-thinking.gif[/img]

[Blackstar*]

Re: let me ask this to change gears fi a minit

^^^^Exactly!