No room for gays in cabinet

[neutral]

No room for gays
Not in my Cabinet, says Golding

Wednesday, May 21, 2008



Golding meets Gordon Brown LONDON, England -


Prime Minister Bruce Golding has forcefully reiterated that homosexuals have no place in his Cabinet, even as he sought to assure gay people that attitudes towards same-sex unions are changing in Jamaica and that the state respects their right to privacy.

In a sometimes combative interview with journalist Stephen Sackur on the British Broadcasting Corporation Television's (BBC-TV's) discussion show, Hardtalk, aired yesterday, Golding was emphatic in his declaration that Jamaica would not bow to the dictates of lobby groups who want to define standards and morals for the island.

Asked by Sackur whether he was more accepting now of homosexuals, given his declaration in 2006 when he was in Opposition that homosexuals will "find no solace" in any Cabinet formed by him, Golding said that in appointing a Cabinet a prime minister exercises judgement. "That is his exclusive responsibility. There's no right to being in a Cabinet," he said.

Sackur, apparently not satisfied with Golding's answer, said: "No, but you've just told me that you believe that Jamaica is on track to give real equality before the law to homosexuals. But you yourself have said that homosexuals will find no solace in any Cabinet formed by me."
Golding, however, shot back: "That has nothing to do with equality before the law."

Sackur pressed further, asking Golding: "Do you not have a duty to consider people on their merits?" to which the prime minister replied that he considered people in terms of their ability and the extent to which they are going to be able to exercise their function with independence.

FULL STORY HERE

[neutral]

Re: No room for gays in cabinet

So how is the honorable prime minister going to determine who is gay before he allows them in his cabinet,what criteria is he going to use short of them turning up for interviews with full make up, leather trousers with the bum hole cut out,and propositioning him for a quick blowjob.


Is he going to determine who is gay and who is not by asking prospective cabinet apointees to drop their trousers and inspecting their anal regions for signs of wear and tear...?

[Q3210]

Re: No room for gays in cabinet

Under his nose, there dwells men. Men who love the sweet smell of roses and the taste of fine wine.

Bruce is only playing up and providing mere lip service to the backward electorate who live in medevial times. Jamaica has an acute nasty taste for others who differ sexually. Meanwhile, our men rape, kill, rob and maim fellow Jamaicans to a degree never seen before even during the days of slavery.

We worry about others sexuality because we are unsure of our own.
If we were a confident modern agressive society, homosexuality would be neither here nor there.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: No room for gays in cabinet

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Q3210</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Under his nose, there dwells men. Men who love the sweet smell of roses and the taste of fine wine.

Bruce is only playing up and providing mere lip service to the backward electorate who live in medevial times.</div></div>

In fairness though he did say this long before he the Elections and what I overstand him to mean is that openly gay persons would not be allowed in the Cabinet. I posted it here and commented at the time that it was unfortunate that he made that statement.
What I give him props for is that he makes himself clear where he stood unlike an undercover Poff like PJoke.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: No room for gays in cabinet

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Newtral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So how is the honorable prime minister going to determine who is gay before he allows them in his cabinet,what criteria is he going to use short of them turning up for interviews with full make up, leather trousers with the bum hole cut out,and propositioning him for a quick blowjob.


Is he going to determine who is gay and who is not by asking prospective cabinet apointees to drop their trousers and inspecting their anal regions for signs of wear and tear...? </div></div> Simple follow the natural laws thatstate that all is innocent until proven guilty. Just as we do with any other errants.

[iches]

Re: No room for gays in cabinet

One sure way is "You must be married! (Man/Woman, not divorced.

[loops]

Re: No room for gays in cabinet

nope....married is not necessarily proof of straightness.

[mountaingal]

Re: No room for gays in cabinet

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iches</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One sure way is "You must be married! (Man/Woman, not divorced. </div></div>
i understand a lot of gay men in jamaica are married to women and not divorced. it's a perfect cover, i guess.

[Gen]

Re: No room for gays in cabinet

i'd say them have bigger fish fi fry [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70456-eyebrows.gif[/img]

[diabolical_Tanya]

Re: No room for gays in cabinet

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Sackur pressed further, asking Golding: "Do you not have a duty to consider people on their merits?" to which the prime minister replied that he considered people in terms of their ability and the extent to which they are going to be able to exercise their function with independence.
</div></div>


[img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/notworthy.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/notworthy.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/notworthy.gif[/img]

[Yuriatin]

Re: No room for gays in cabinet

Thank you.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Q3210</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Meanwhile, our men rape, kill, rob and maim fellow Jamaicans to a degree never seen before even during the days of slavery.

</div></div>

[evanovitch]

Re: No room for gays in cabinet

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Q3210</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Under his nose, there dwells men. Men who love the sweet smell of roses and the taste of fine wine.

Bruce is only playing up and providing mere lip service to the backward electorate who live in medevial times. Jamaica has an acute nasty taste for others who differ sexually. Meanwhile, our men rape, kill, rob and maim fellow Jamaicans to a degree never seen before even during the days of slavery.

We worry about others sexuality because we are unsure of our own.
If we were a confident modern agressive society, homosexuality would be neither here nor there. </div></div>

Bruce knows the nuances of the society dat is around him....is oddas who wan to believe dat gay people not in positions of power across the board...and Jamaica is not alone as a country wherein people sometimes prefer not to have dem preference in di know....

as to the backward electorate who live in medievial times, i can ongle surmise from dat statement dat u do not exercise ur rite to vote n thus u stand apart and alone

an while i am at it , why exactly is it that others of ur sex do allll that goes on...have u men of caring an the higher bent reached out to find out why an say enuff is enuff or r u cowering behind closed doors like the all the other browbeaten people

[SmoothOperator]

Re: No room for gays in cabinet

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Newtral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So how is the honorable prime minister going to determine who is gay before he allows them in his cabinet,what criteria is he going to use short of them turning up for interviews with full make up, leather trousers with the bum hole cut out,and propositioning him for a quick blowjob.


Is he going to determine who is gay and who is not by asking prospective cabinet apointees to drop their trousers and inspecting their anal regions for signs of wear and tear...? </div></div>

Bossman me just eat dinner. I could really have done without that mental picture.

[SmoothOperator]

Re: No room for gays in cabinet

I think Golding started off well when he said that Jamaica is going to have to determine to what extent its values adapt but it can't be that lobby groups, especially ones far away from Jamaica, are going to dictate those standards and values. But then him get cornered on the question about gays in his own cabinet and whether he would want to help create a Jamaica where it did not matter one way or the other. Personally I think it would have been political suicide for him to have said yes that he would want to help create a Jamaica like that- just imagine the soundbites that would have offered to the opposition party in an election campaign!

But the way he answered it about..."in some other cabinet, but not is his cabinet" made Jamaica and himself seem backward. Some people may interpret it that he was saying that it is ok for employers to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation. He could have said that he has to be mindful of cultural norms and standards when he makes his cabinet appointments and appointing an openly gay person to his cabinet would violate the moral sensibilities of most Jamaicans so he would'nt do it. While what he says will play very well locally it may well come back to bite him and the rest of the country in the future. Think how Red Stripe was forced to withdraw sponsorship from dancehall concerts because of lobby pressure. Those same groups could be looking at this and telling potential investors not to put money in Jamaica because the Prime Minister supports discrimination. Its not what Golding meant I'm sure but this may be how it plays out in the international media.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: No room for gays in cabinet


Mr. Golding has opened the door big time to the abuse of ordinary Jamaicans who as some folks might say, look funny:
Here the Chronology of events as I have it:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Golding says 'no' to homosexuality</span>
Psychologists, academic predict increased violence amidst move by gays to gain acceptance
BY PETRE WILLIAMS Sunday Observer senior reporter [email protected]
<span style='font-size: 14pt'><span style="color: #CC0000">Sunday, July 08, 2007 </span></span>

OPPOSITION leader Bruce Golding has come out strongly against any change in legislation to sanction homosexuality in Jamaica, even as members of that community are moving for greater acceptance among locals.

According to Golding, the Jamaica Labour Party (JLP) of which he is president, is not prepared to go against the cultural norms of the Jamaican society, which are largely anti-same sex relationships.
"Let us be very clear. There are some countries that are prepared to overturn tradition and culture in the interest of what they regard as individual freedoms and to do so at the instance of the homosexual fraternity, which comprises a minority in the population. You will find this pretty prevalent in Europe.

We (the JLP) are not prepared to go in that direction," he told the Sunday Observer. "We intend to uphold the laws of the country."
At the same time, he made it clear that the JLP was not prepared to intrude on people in the privacy of their bedrooms, even as the party sought to ensure that the laws of the land are upheld.

"We don't believe that the state should be pushing down people's bedroom doors to find what they do there, because, if you push it down today to enforce laws that relate to sexual activity, you will push it down tomorrow for some other purpose. So we are not going there," he said.

"We respect the privacy of people's homes and we respect the intimacy of people's bedrooms. But in so far as providing official sanction to that kind of activity [homosexuality], we are not going there," Golding added.

If, however, people opt to engage in public displays of homosexuality, then he said there was no question that they would be made to answer for their actions.

"If you walk around in your bedroom naked, that is your business. You're in the privacy of your bedroom. But if you walk around the streets naked, you would have violated the law," the JLP leader said.

"There is a sharp distinction between what is permissible in terms of the public and what is permitted in your own bedroom. We are not prepared to interfere with people's privacy, but we feel that we must be sensitive to the culture of the country," he added.
According to Golding, individual rights must be seen within the context of a society's culture.

"There have been some amendments to laws to ensure that people's rights and freedoms are respected, but bear in mind that individual rights must be established within the context of the norms and culture and moral predilection of a society and therefore, that is our position," he said.

Golding's statements come at a time when sociologists and at least one academic are predicting an increase in violence against people of the same sex, who openly express affection for each other or engage in cross-dressing.

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/html...MOSEXUALITY.asp

<span style='font-size: 17pt'>Hard Talk Interview:</span>

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9cQx-zmHgg8&feature=related

EDITORIAL - <span style='font-size: 17pt'>Homophobic silliness and a failure of leadership</span>
published: <span style='font-size: 14pt'>Thursday | May 22, 2008</span>

Leadership often demands of the person who assumes that role a willingness to adopt what initially may be unpopular positions and, the ability to persuade and cajole those whom they lead to the embrace of new ideas.

Indeed, this is a notion of leadership that was often canvassed by Prime Minister Bruce Golding, who, over the past dozen years or so, had sought to fashion himself as a man willing to shift paradigms and to nudge the rest of the country along with him.

Mr Golding is often at his most eloquent in purveying his ideals for a higher form of governance, including a deep respect for the rights of the individual. Ultimately, Mr Golding talked of steering us towards a gentler and more tolerant Jamaica.

It is, perhaps, unfortunate that we perceive these as noble ideals, rather than the way things are and ought to be. The question that now seems relevant is whether Mr Golding is willing to expend real political capital to achieve his declared ends? Or, as some might frame it, whether the prime minister is as deeply committed to these ideas of change and whether he has the stomach for the challenge?

Sharp relief

This matter has been thrown into sharp relief, internationally, in the face of the prime minister's interview on the BBC television programme 'Hardtalk' in which he displayed, to a global audience, that he is not immune from that most indelicate of Jamaican traits, homophobia. Unless, that is, Mr Golding was playing to a domestic political audience rather than stating a genuinely held belief.

In recent years, Jamaica has fallen under international pressure for the society's treatment of gays and lesbians, who are, sometimes too often, subject to violence because of their lifestyles. Human rights lobbyists complain of the weak effort of the Jamaican authorities, including the police, to protect the rights of gays and lambaste the fact that sex between males remains a crime in this country.

Moreover, several Jamaican dancehall artistes have been blacklisted in Europe and North America for their songs promoting violence against gays, and gay and lesbian lobbyists have promoted, so far not very successfully, economic boycotts of the island.

In the BBC interview, Mr Golding was asked about Jamaica's attitude towards homosexuality. His initial answer was reasonable. There is a problem, but attitudes were softening. His government respected people's privacy.

Past remarks

Then Mr Golding was asked about past remarks that no homosexual could be a member of his Cabinet. Here, there was a bit of a waffling inconsistency: while he broadly viewed people on the basis of their abilities, he was under no compulsion to consider gays, in exercising his choice in forming a Cabinet.

When he was pressed on the issue, Mr Golding resorted to the tactics of the cornered - neither he nor Jamaica would be dictated to. And, on whether gays can ever sit in a Jamaican Cabinet: "Sure ... but not in mine."

Jamaica and Mr Golding can expect further pressure from the international community, which is the lesser of the outcomes from the PM's performance. His greater failure is that of leadership.

A potentially unintended consequence of Mr Golding's trenchant statement is that people interpret it as vindication of homophobic and anti-gay violence and for the liberation of the voyeurs.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The opinions on this page, except for the above, do not necessarily reflect the views of The Gleaner. To respond to a Gleaner editorial, email us: [email protected] or fax: 922-6223. Responses should be no longer than 400 words. Not all responses will be published.

http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20080522/cleisure/cleisure1.html

<span style='font-size: 17pt'>PM's response to editorial</span>
<span style='font-size: 14pt'>published: Friday | May 23, 2008 </span>

The Editor, Sir:

The campaign for gay rights does not end with the entitlement to Cabinet membership. Its sights are set on same-sex unions, same-sex marriages.Where is the line to be drawn? Is there a line to be drawn?

Each society is defined by the values it upholds. It is these values that determine which behaviour is to be encouraged and which is just to be frowned upon and even sanctioned.

Values inherently involve prejudices. For example, we are prejudiced against incest and prostitution. Should we now be required to recognise the rights of incesters and prostitutes and find accommodation for them in the Cabinet

The family unit which is the cradle of our society's values is already under severe stress. It needs to be protected and strengthened, not further undermined by endorsement of lifestyle practices which contradict the relationships on which families are founded.

Your editorial could have benefited from deeper thought.

I am, etc.,

BRUCE GOLDING

<span style='font-size: 17pt'>Straight-talking Golding defends stance on gays</span>
<span style='font-size: 14pt'>published: Friday | May 23, 2008 </span>

Jamaicans in Birmingham flock Prime Minister Bruce Golding after he addressed a meeting held Wednesday at the Birmingham Town Hall in Victoria Square. The Birmingham meeting was the second of four community fora being held with Jamaicans in the United Kingdom (UK), during the prime minister's first official visit there. He returns to the island on Sunday. - JIS photo

Prime Minister Bruce Golding is defending his declaration on a BBC talk show, that homosexuals would not be welcome in his Cabinet.

Responding to a Gleaner editorial, criticising the tone of his response to questions about homosexuality on BBC's HARDtalk Tuesday, Golding made it clear his Government was not about to erode the country's innate values that determine both its prejudices and morals.

"Values inherently involve prejudices," Golding wrote in a letter to the editor. "For example, we are prejudiced against incest and prostitution. Should we now be required to recognise the rights of incesters and prostitutes and find accommodation for them in the Cabinet?"

Further pressure

The Gleaner editorial stated that "Jamaica and Mr Golding can expect further pressure from the international community, which is the lesser of the outcomes of the PM's performance. His greater failure is that of leadership."

In his letter, the prime minister said: "The family unit, which is the cradle of our society's values, is already under severe stress. It needs to be protected and strengthened, not further undermined by endorsement of lifestyle practices which contradict the relationships on which families are founded."

Golding also argued that the campaign for gay rights by lobbyists would not end with the entitlement of Cabinet membership for homosexuals.

"Its sights are set on same-sex unions, same-sex marriages. Where is the line to be drawn? Is there a line to be drawn?"

http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20080523/lead/lead2.html