Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

[MaasDee]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

Originally posted by Sinco01:
[qb]

Originally posted by remo:
[qb]

Originally posted by Donnika:
[qb] why would you hope he's joking when he's reporting the facts? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [/qb]

Yes,Not from a JLP or PNP angle [/qb]

ok Remo -- my thought was on Maas DEE comments ...

but .. why is it so hard to understand world trade .. unfair tarrifs .. protected markets .. IMF loans .. World Bank conferences ... G8 Summits ...


dem control money supply ..
there is a whole lot more going on here than politics & theiving [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [/qb]

Nothing hard there to understand, unless you are going to blame banks for Jamaica's policies!

Banks are in business for making profit. They will invest and give credit according to the feasability of your venture and your credit worthiness.

The IMF was hard on Menlie's government because it had policies that weren't practical for the island's economic growth. Menlie wanted money to borrow but had nothing to show the World bank or IMF how the country was a good investment. That is a fact of business, these lenders weren't into ideoligies and crash program welfare.

When Seaga took over the government in 1980, there was zero foreign currency in the bank of Jamaica's vaults. He had to repay all of Menlie's borrowings and wholesale plunder.

Seaga gave his proposals to the same banks and got the same deal yet was able to bring the country around, mainly because of the investors his politics attracted and his ability to give account for his borrowing and spending.

Jamaica's fate will always rely on the abilities of it's leaders and the policies they make, not on banks!

[Sinco01]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

no scape goat Donnika ... like you like to say .. facts

and you right a good finance mininster .. who will sell yuh out..to back foot

but like Mass Dee said .. there are those who will be willing to accept austure measures to pay off debt ..
but at the same time where will the profits be heading .. ?
any domestic growth or reduction in poverty levels ?

yep ..we can find ways around some .. maybe accept a few .. but at what cost to the citizens ?

[Sinco01]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

we can do "bad" by our selves .. don't need no help fe dat ..

so .. no scapegoats needed

[johnnycakes]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

If I am to believe what I've read in this thread,
Manley and P.J. ran Jamaica into a situation where some 70% of the country's income goes to repay the debt and the infrastructure is going to hell in a handbasket because of PNP policies.

This of course totally ignores the fact that Jamaica like all neo-colonial Third World countries is deeply in debt due to a lack of natural or human resources it can exploit.


Seaga tripled the national debt by taking on the IMF/World Bank loans and what has Jamaica got to show for all that borrowing?

We can discuss the symptoms of the illness that plague Jamaica but until we address the cause of the problem, we might as well be rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

The problem is the economic system that the U.S enforces on most of the Third World and in this hemisphere in particular.

Capitalism simply does not work in the Third World since the Third World countries are poor, have few natural and human resources or an industrial base on which to begin a financial renaissance.
Jamaica and the other Third World countries are sinking deeper and not rising out of the debt quagmire they have found themselves in.
There is no solution to this economic crisis under capitalism.
None.

Compare capitalist Jamaica with socialist Cuba.

Jamaica has an average per capita income of $3800.00US. Cuba has a per capita income of $2800.00US..
On the face of it Jamaicans would seem to be better off but when you consider that for that $20.00 per week difference every Cuban gets free education from pre-school to graduate school, free and excellent medical care from the cradle to the grave, guaranteed levels of nutrition, housing and employment and freedom from the drugs, gangs, crime and corruption that are endemic in Jamaica.

Cuba spends its money on its people and doesn't send 70% of it to bankers in the First World.

Its senseless to blame Michael or P.J. or Seaga for Jamaica's predicament.
Without exception they all had to support the capitalism that cripples Jamaica and the Third World today.
It would take a socialist revolution to change things for the better for the average Jamaican and Jamaicans have shown they have no stomach for revolution or even the small steps in that direction that Manley attempted.

It's a difficult choice. Live in increasingly harsher conditions with crime, poverty on the increase, failing infrastructure, lack of affordable and acceptable medical care, lack of adequate educational opportunities
for all, lack of jobs that pay a living wage
or a bloody revolution.
There is no middle way.
Those in power will not give you revolutionary thinking candidates to vote for and should you succeed in voting in socialism, those elected would not be permitted to take power by those now holding power.
And if those now holding power couldn't hold back the tide, they would call in U.S troops.

Deal with the truth of things.

[niceniss]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

Originally posted by Sinco01:
[qb] no scape goat Donnika ... like you like to say .. facts

and you right a good finance mininster .. who will sell yuh out..to back foot

but like Mass Dee said .. there are those who will be willing to accept austure measures to pay off debt ..
but at the same time where will the profits be heading .. ?
any domestic growth or reduction in poverty levels ?

yep ..we can find ways around some .. maybe accept a few .. but at what cost to the citizens ? [/qb]

so what is it then? spreading blame to all for the rampant, blatant corruption of some because they are preferred? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
help me understand...

are you saying that MassDee is wrong in his assesment because he made the distinction of bad policies and political corruption of manley's government in comparison to seaga's successful attempt to bringing the country back during his reign?

chew on this for a moment- the austair(whatever that means) measures of which you speak are currently being employed by Patterson's government, directly inherited from his leader Manley. That is, the borrowing from peter (govt CDs and other papers at ridiculously high interest rates) to pay paul(the previous owners of CDs and such, along with the IMF that manley critised seaga for yet immediately ran to for loans hypocritically after he was elected).
Who will repay those loans?


let me tell you something: loans alone cannot be the problem; it's the policies(some fiscal and others political) that determine the success or failure of an economy.

[Sinco01]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

Donnika & MaasDee ..
hope you had time to read the previous article ...
blaming the person in power will not help the situation ..

if possible - Please read World Trade News - by BlackStar ? .. in the International News forum

when you are caught up in the International Global trade there are some sacrifices to be made at the present time ..
and some of those sacrifices could kill you .. at least cause great hardship to the citizen(local farmers & workers)

until the Govt is in a position to develop work & production from its workforce - and able to trade produce at fair and reasonable prices & tarriffs ...
do not blame them that are in power ...

what is the next guy gonna do ?

one man tea is another man poison ..

careful what you choose

[remo]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

A lot has been said about the film being one sided or the director is a Manley desciple..But,what I havent heard from any of them is that the film is inaccurate in any way

[niceniss]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

Originally posted by Sinco01:
[qb] Donnika & MaasDee ..
hope you had time to read the previous article ...
blaming the person in power will not help the situation ..

if possible - Please read World Trade News - by BlackStar ? .. in the International News forum

when you are caught up in the International Global trade there are some sacrifices to be made at the present time ..
and some of those sacrifices could kill you .. at least cause great hardship to the citizen(local farmers & workers)

until the Govt is in a position to develop work & production from its workforce - and able to trade produce at fair and reasonable prices & tarriffs ...
do not blame them that are in power ...

what is the next guy gonna do ?

one man tea is another man poison ..

careful what you choose [/qb]

recommend passing the blame to outside forces?

I know enough about jamaica to know that passing the blame as if politicians are incapable of doing better is ridiculous.

remo, lies and propaganda is what this film is about. nothing else.

[MaasDee]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

Originally posted by remo:
[qb] A lot has been said about the film being one sided or the director is a Manley desciple..But,what I havent heard from any of them is that the film is inaccurate in any way [/qb]

Come now Remo, I can't believe that you would make a perposterous statement like that after reading my first post.

The first two paragraphs states this fact very clearly:

"I saw it too and it was a disgrace what this woman has done with the truth.

As a Jamaican who has seen the progression of Jamaican politics since independence in 1962, her one sided and biased assessment of Jamaica's financial woes and who is to be blamed is downright disgusting and libelous."

That this film is riddled with lies and inaccuracies should be more than evident from me saying that!

[MaasDee]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

Originally posted by johnnycakes:
[qb] Deal with the truth of things. [/qb]

Johnnycakes, you wouldn't know the truth if fell on top of you! You not even sound like a PNP, more like a Trevor Monroe disciple. PNP not even talk bout socialism anymore fi donkey years now.

Your little post looks like it has more fantasy and inaccuracies than that silly chick's documentary!

"Seaga tripple the national debt", what a big joke! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img]

Try again....

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

"Seaga tripple the national debt", what a big joke!

So you do not even know this to be a fact?
It is just like I see Donnoka posting that it was Manley and the PNP that first declared states of emergency in the country.
Not realizing the the JLP declared state of emergency rwice,during the 60's,and lock up a lot of people.

[Sinco01]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

Originally posted by Donnika:
[qb]

Originally posted by Sinco01:
[qb] Donnika & MaasDee ..
hope you had time to read the previous article ...
blaming the person in power will not help the situation ..

if possible - Please read World Trade News - by BlackStar ? .. in the International News forum

when you are caught up in the International Global trade there are some sacrifices to be made at the present time ..
and some of those sacrifices could kill you .. at least cause great hardship to the citizen(local farmers & workers)

until the Govt is in a position to develop work & production from its workforce - and able to trade produce at fair and reasonable prices & tarriffs ...
do not blame them that are in power ...

what is the next guy gonna do ?

one man tea is another man poison ..

careful what you choose [/qb]

recommend passing the blame to outside forces?

I know enough about jamaica to know that passing the blame as if politicians are incapable of doing better is ridiculous.

remo, lies and propaganda is what this film is about. nothing else. [/qb]

grow up ... you know jamaica .. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

until you can sell your goods and services at prices that allow you to make a profit .. all de fiscal policies yuh mek will not work .. except wid IMF money ... and dere goes your economic policies too .. down the drain ..

[niceniss]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

sinco you seem to like using greamlings.

ok. continue to play helpless victim. be my guest!

[mari]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

I haven't seen the film and I'm not an economist, but I've lived in Jamaica through them all: Hugh Shearer, Michael Manley, Edward Seaga. I personally experienced the suffering instigated by the daily devaluation of the Jamaican dollars in accordance with IMF guidelines, and levy of execution placed by the US government on vulnerable Jamaica assets, such as our airplanes, when smugglers, who had nothing the do with the government, transported thier wares on it.

I lived through the USA initiated sanctions with it's food shortages (afterall, we are a country that still depends on imported items to survive). Lived through the period, when the illegal guns were started being imported and barking in an attempt to ward off democratic socialism, through terrorism. Lived through all the 'well off' people closing down their businesses and running away, because they feared a government that preached Jamaican assets for Jamaicans, and thought this meant that everything they owned would be taken away and shared out in a communist type action.

And I have lived to see a Jamaica that inspite of all that happened then and is still happening now, has survived, and continues to be strong.

The best thing that ever happened to Jamaica was Michael Manley. it was during his reign that a lot of poor people started having the chance to elevate themselves. There was a slogan at the time: Tun Yuh An, an mek fashan, which a lot of people (the ones who did'nt, or couldn't desert the sinking ship) took to heart and made something of themselves.

It was a time when education to the highest level became available to all desiring it, regardless of how poor they were. A time when adequate housing became available to the poorer masses.

The worst enemy of "THIRD WORLD" and other weaker countries is the USA, ask anybody who has lived in one did not prostitute itself to US policies.

The USA deliberately set out to "MASH UP" Jamaica with its propaganda, its economic and other sanctions, money policies, the guns that were sent to terrorize and destablize.

Does anyone out there really think that the Jamaicans (who remain at home) are so stupid as to keep re-electing a government that is detrimental to them.

Think on these things!

[johnnycakes]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

Well said Yahdie.
It is sad that so many Jamaicans can only look inward at the symptoms of the larger problems that face not only Jamaica but most of the Third World.
This inability to look at the big picture dooms Jamaica to the deep slide into greater poverty, more crime and despair.

Fighting and arguing amongst ourselves does nothing to address the root cause of the problems of poverty.

Stick with capitalism and the politiciansand parties that support capitalism and there will be no change ever.

I would like for any of the many supporters of capitalism and the opponents of socialism to poit out any Third World country that has used capitalism to get itself out of debt, out of poverty.