Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

[niceniss]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

haha ha haaaa! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img]

how can you expect to be taken seriously if you insist on talking nonsence?

So You know how wealthy I am?
You write my cheques then?
You know my of knowledge of the world(or according to you; my lack thereof)?
So the PNP's socialism has created much wealth for ordinary Jamaicans over the past 16 years?

you're a classic , trust me [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img]

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

the PNP's socialism has created much wealth for ordinary Jamaicans over the past 16 years?
The PNP socialism!! during the last 16 years?

Now I get the picture,You've said enough.

[Sinco01]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

[img]/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]ray:

supply & demand .. economics

markets
price
tarrifs
loans

..
hope no one here -(including Donnika & MaasDee) is running a company trying to do business with Wal-Mart ...

[niceniss]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

Originally posted by Dr.Dudd:
[qb] "the PNP's socialism has created much wealth for ordinary Jamaicans over the past 16 years?"
The PNP socialism!! during the last 16 years?

Now I get the picture,You've said enough. [/qb]

Oh you've finally got?
and just when I was beginning to think I needed to cut your head open and stuff the concept in!

~whew~

[mari]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

Originally posted by MaasDee:
[qb]

Originally posted by Yahdie:
[qb] To Donnika and MaasDee: As said before, I am not advocating which political party is better. [/qb]

Well action speak louder than words!

I do not dispute the CIA or America's involvement in Jamaica's politics, they do it in every country they have some interest in. What I don't believe however is that the US had any intentions on long term destablization or to ruin Jamaica's economy.

Manley was running around to different communist countries, flirting with their leaders and philosophies so when America withheld aid, it was in their best interest. We suffered some, yes, but it was Manley's fault, not America's.

I could do as you did and Google volumes of web pages that supports my position and link them here as you did but I realy don't have the time or interest to, so.....

I stand by my opinion and I trust my experiences in Jamaica more than the comments of some person I don't even know, posting on a web site. [/qb]

So, according to what you just wrote in the first and second paragraph above, the USA had the right to enter into Jamaica's politics, because it had an interest in the country. Well, well. I wonder how many countries in the world like US politics, and if not, can they just go in, intervene and destabilize the country with organized terror, they way they did to Jamaica and others of different minds.

They withholding their 'aid' is one thing, terror and economic sanction is another. We survived the withholding of aid, and is still suffering from the, at that time instigated terror. Everytime a gun bark, I remember. Everytime sombody dies, I remember.

I also lived through it in lower St. Andrew and have lost family members and friends. I lived through the daily devaluation of our dollars and lost a business that depended on foreign exchange to survive. I lived through not knowing what to feed my children, because the supermarkets were almost empty and rice was married to sanitary napkins. I lived through not being able to buy medicine, because there was none available to buy.

The question is, was it fair? You didn't like the country's politics, so you brought down sufferation on millions of innocent people with your 'Big Bully Syndrome'. The rich, and the ones who had the most to lose, if US propganda proved to be true had already left the sinking ship, so as usual it was the poor and the weak who couldn't help themselves who suffered the most.

According to your posts, you are convinced that foreigners who write about it are biased, one of the direct perpretrator who confesses his deeds in a book is biased, and we who lived through it are biased along with everyone else who believed that it happened in a way that you do not believe it happened are biased, so you don't want to waste your precious time searching the web for argument to refute what they are saying, thus proving your point.

The problem is, I would love to be convinced that that things did not really go like that, and that our problems are a result of our own stupidity. convince me nuh man!

As a child, I learned the following verse in primary school.

He who knows, and knows he knows, he is a wise man seek him.
He who knows not, and knows he knows not, he is a child teach him.
He who knows not, and knows not he knows not, he is a fool shun him.


This is not about Michael Manley, nor Edward Seaga. It is not about PNP, not JLP. It is about Jamaica. I love that little country bad, anybody hurt that country, hurt me. Everytime there is bad news about Jamaica, or Jamaicans, I feel it. Ole time peeple seh, when yuh lik black fowl, jankro bex. Mi bex bad when mi memba, mi bex bad bout di murda rate a yahd, mi bex bad when yuh seh Merika av di rite fi duh weh dem duh tuh wih. Mi bex bad, but mi fargiv yuh. Yuh muss av bin chrough some eavy brain washin, suh a nuh fi yuh fault.

[Wardob]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

Dr. Dudd” Is Jamaica really confemned to being a ine party state?
When will we see some logical thinking proJLP pisters?

WARDOB:-Will never be a one party state, and where are you the PNP logical thinkers.

Dr. Dudd” I have been on line from the inception of the net, and I am yet to see a post from this demography that does not rely on emotion rather that logic.

WARDOB: - Well would you know, on describing the worshipers of Manley on this board, the exact words use by others who often only stop by to read?

Dr. Dudd” They seem to be motivated usually the hate, or pain of the Manley period, instead of the facts underlying such experience

WARDOB:-You made a mistake with the name substitute the name Manley for Seaga and that statement would be more correct. You guys hate Seaga so much I have no doubt you have sleepless nights over him, as to they who want an apology, I was awaiting the same from Michael, but his departure I accept as more just.

While not the motivating factor to support any other than the PNP, what I my family and friends had to go through, I need you to know the pain felt during that period was and is real up to today.
Without a doubt many including myself believe you’re so call facts was used for political expediency, and will not accept the facts that the Jamaican people simple refuse to go along with Michael Manley experimentI have said enough abut that.

With regards to the pain or hate of the Manley period, I am wondering what you would be saying today if you watch the torching of your family business, you listen to threats like “on a PNP victory we will be back” you watch helplessly while thugs with red bandanas,shouting “Socialism a muss” and guns point at you and your parents and 75 year old Grand Mother calling us capitalist, imperialist, which result that I had to removed them from their home , a home owned by them for over 40yrs, to a safe heaven (Thanks to Mike Henry )
You watch your kids on their way from school stopped book bags thrown on the ground, searched because of the color of their uniform, their sins? They are attending what they say is “Shearer School” and their parents and Grand parents are reactionaries .
What would you say if your best friend was shot in his leg, dragged into a PNP campaigning office , thrown on the floor, none seek medical attention for him ,he was allow to be bled to death. All of this is USA fault, is it? that is what you guys asking me to belive?
Dr. I could go on and on, and I know many Jamaicans less fortunate than I am had even worse experience.

Place like Taws Pen is what it is today because of the same and worse, Taws Pen people and gang like the One Order is a creation of Michael Manley, many living their today have endure hell during those days. Go tell them the CIA cause it.
Michael little experience have left many scares, I know many like you and other cannot see beyond the lost of your hero and party, especially loosing to Eddie, you all will have to live with it and continue your sleepless nights, but don’t play down the pain others felt and how emotional one gets over the memories of those terrible days. As for me I despise Michael Manley, may he burn in hell, and that is coming from someone who spent four years with him in the NWU go figure that.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

Again,
The people who are blaming Manley for things he did 25 years ago or Seaga and P.J.. for the things that followed are missing the point. You can't see the forest for the trees.

As long as Jamaica (or any other poor Third World country) is locked into, forced to retain an economic system that does not work in alleviating the poverty and the economic inequity, it does not matter whether the PNP or the JLP is in power.

In reality, Jamaica, like the United States has one party and that is the Capitalist Party.
It has a left wing and a right wing but as in the U.S.A., both parties maintain a strict allegiance to capitalism.

As I stated before, capitalism does not work in Third World countries. What it does is maintain the status quo: the way things are, in which the top 5% of the population control some 80% of the wealth and resources of the country leaving 20% of the wealth and resources for the other 80%.

This results in massive poverty which runs from 25% in the more prosperous countries like the U.S to 80% and higher in the poorer Third World countries.

The governments in all these countries are controlled by the monied interests. The governments are bought and owned by these monied interests and they make sure that thwere will be no change in how the wealth of the country is distributed.

On top of this inequity in the distribution of wealth, in poorer countries like Jamaica, some 70% of what the governmnet takes in is sent right out in repayments to the IMF and World Bank leaving very little for hospitals, schools, roads and bridges

An offshoot of widespread poverty is crime and corruption which hardly touches the wealthy but comes down hard on the poor and working people.

This foolishness of debating Manley vs. Seaga, PNP vs. JLP is a waste of time but a very nice way for those at the top to distract the poor and working people from the real cause of their distress which is the economic system

Doesn't anyone care to debate this?

It is evident that no one in this thread cares or dares to discuss the disparity between the health care, education, job security, prevalence of crime and democratic electoral system in Cuba and Jamaica and perhaps this is indicative of a widespread willingness in Jamaica to accept things as they are rather than fight for basic human rights and a better future for their children.

Remember: "In the world today, millions of children sleep in the streets.
Not one is Cuban."

Also remember, no ad hominems, no name calling which only make you look stupid..
Debate the issues
if you can.



.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

I take it that no one is interested in challenging my assertions.
It does seem that Jamaicans would rather suffer quietly in the mess that has been created by the debt crisis and its neocolonial source than do anything about it other than shoot at and criticise one another.

Perhaps slavery isn't so bad after all.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

The fact that no one has responded to my posts makes it seem that no Jamaican or friend of Jamaica can offer a realistic solution to the problems of poverty that are afflicting the country and its people.

I find this a stunning and sad revelation.

Let me pose this question and say that I will not respond to those who answer but just sit back and try to understand the reasoning of those who choose to answer:
What is it about Cuba's revolution that is so unappealing to Jamaicans? and
Do you truly wish to continue in the downward social and economic spiral that faces Jamaica (and the Third World in general) rather than bring about a change in the economic form (capitalism) that would transform Jamaica and bring universal healthcare, free education, guaranteed living wage jobs and a crime-free society?
Why does the Cuban model not appeal to Jamaicans?

Educate me, please.

[RichD]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

Originally posted by johnnycakes:
[qb] The fact that no one has responded to my posts makes it seem that no Jamaican or friend of Jamaica can offer a realistic solution to the problems of poverty that are afflicting the country and its people.

I find this a stunning and sad revelation.

Let me pose this question and say that I will not respond to those who answer but just sit back and try to understand the reasoning of those who choose to answer:
What is it about Cuba's revolution that is so unappealing to Jamaicans? and
Do you truly wish to continue in the downward social and economic spiral that faces Jamaica (and the Third World in general) rather than bring about a change in the economic form (capitalism) that would transform Jamaica and bring universal healthcare, free education, guaranteed living wage jobs and a crime-free society?
Why does the Cuban model not appeal to Jamaicans?

Educate me, please. [/qb]

because those that have alot dont want to give it up and those who dont have think that they can get....

[ohliz]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

[ QUOTE ]
those who dont have/quote]

I'm thinking not too many of them are posting on an internet bulletin board each day either.....

[remo]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

Originally posted by ohliz:
[qb] [ QUOTE ]
those who dont have/quote]

I'm thinking not too many of them are posting on an internet bulletin board each day either..... [/qb]

aint dat the truth

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life & Debt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again,
The people who are blaming Manley for things he did 25 years ago or Seaga and P.J.. for the things that followed are missing the point. You can't see the forest for the trees.</div></div>
Interesting.... should be time for another Life and Debt sequel!

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life &amp; Debt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... As a Jamaican who had the opportunity to study and teach economics,I must say I see the period that preceeded the 70's as an economic failure,though you may see it as progressive politically.

Now let me explain why I see it as an economic failure.
I also see the coultries tha are being labeled as economic success,also as economic failures.
Economies like Singapore,cayman,Barbados etc.
The reasin why they are economic failures,is because their economic are systems are no different from that of Jamaica prior to the 70's and they are jusr as susuptable to the capital flight that was the cause of the Jamaican economic woes.
All these countries are,are repositry safe haven for other peoples money.
Those funds are very mobile,and will dosappear,overnight,llike happened recently that caused the Asian economic crash.

These countries have the deposits,but they can't invest in their infrastructure to support an economic program that will docersify them from the dependence of the tav shelters.
You see tax shelters,is based on the same principles that governs low income labor economies. That is they race to the bottom. The system forces each economy to compete with the other on seeing which country will collect the lowest yo keep the business. Sooner or later,they will be charging so little that,it becomes unprofitable,to offer the services,and they they will have no other induastry to fall back on.

Jamaica was in the same system during the 60's,and as soon as they realize that the income from their production could not support their oil bill,and raised the fees,the capital flight took place.
No country that adopt such economic system will be able to really be a sovrein country.
Economics is not a philosophy,ir is a science,ad as a science econoimic systems procuse predictable results,but,the najoriry is fooled inro believing that seemingly failed systems are not intentional.
This is done be teaching that economics is an art,but it is as much an art as mathematics.
_________________________
</div></div> nThat was posted before long before the world economic crash. As a matter of fact it was 2005 it was posted.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Interest article - Setphanie Black -Life &amp; Debt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> nThat was posted before long before the world economic crash. As a matter of fact it was 2005 it was posted. </div></div>LOL!