Crime control...

[Diplomat]

Re: Crime control...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> When young black males resort to shooting each other over <span style="font-weight: bold">failed drug deals or turf</span>, it speaks to more than just social conditions; maybe a mindset of entitlement? </div></div>
so u think that is what its all about? </div></div>
Didn't say that at all but there sure seems to be a corelation, if not causation, between the variables.

[Diplomat]

Re: Crime control...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One more thing.....

What do you mean by entitlement? I </div></div>
Maybe that should have been your first question? I have no idea how you got all of what you said from the question I posed. I don't have the answers, and fankly, I don't think anybody does. I'm simply wondering out aloud...

<span style="font-weight: bold">ETA:</span> And no, science has not demonstrated that changing the social environment results in change in behavior. Human behaviors are caused by many variables, social environment being <span style="font-style: italic">one of them</span>. Again, there may be corelation but not necessarily causation, so one cannot pitch one's tent solely on that belief.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Crime control...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One more thing.....

What do you mean by entitlement? I </div></div>
Maybe that should have been your first question? I have no idea how you got all of what you said from the question I posed. I don't have the answers, and fankly, I don't think anybody does. I'm simply wondering out aloud...

<span style="font-weight: bold">ETA:</span> And no, science has not demonstrated that changing the social environment results in change in behavior. Human behaviors are caused by many variables, social environment being <span style="font-style: italic">one of them</span>. Again, there may be corelation but not necessarily causation, so one cannot pitch one's tent solely on that belief. </div></div> What would be the justification for religion then?
If changing of situation does not change behavior.
How does the church aaffect behavioral changes?
Or do you believe it does not?

Ever heard of the science of sociology?
That is one if the things that it has proven

[Diplomat]

Re: Crime control...

One's religious beliefs is supposed to produce change from the inside out. Change the man and his ways of thinking/being results in a change in behaviors, presumably for the better, which eventually effect change in his environment starting with an observation of the golden rule.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Crime control...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One's religious beliefs is supposed to produce change from the inside out. Change the man and his ways of thinking/being results in a change in behaviors, presumably for the better, which eventually effect change in his environment starting with an observation of the golden rule. </div></div> You have it backways,topsy turvy, upside down.
All changes comes as a result of a <span style="font-weight: bold">reaction</span> ro stumili.
Thi sstimuli has to be environmentally originated. Otherwise matter would be dead.
Th eevidence of life is change, but that change is dependent on stumilation, which is dependent on environment.
Ig th eenviooronment is not conducive th echange wull not be as predicted.
That is the basis of acience. and science is nothing but man's understanding of the principles that God created that governs this uinverse.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Crime control...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, is the argument that if the governments remove the social ills, then it automatically reduces/eliminates the citizenry's use of weapons? I ask the question because the proposal seem to present a simple answer that in its ideal-ness, masks the inherent difficulties in effecting it. I don't know that changing a social environment automatically changes people in that environment. At the end of the day, isn't it fair to say that some of those who choose to use guns/violence would do so regardless of the environment they were in? </div></div>

If you make a purely sterile argument without the benefit of what is known about the violence and the society in Jamaica it does not work. There are things we know about Jamaica in the most of the Garrisons; services are none existent or minimal.

For years the residents had to pay utilities, pay for medical help, they are called upon to vote en block, they live in fear of their lives from invaders, the police, their fellow citizens and when they go to get a job they are often not employed because of where they came from.

This has been my personal experience. So it is not just a denial of one or two services, it is almost a complete breakdown, a failure of the State to provide conditions that civilized society have come to expect.

If you don't believe me read the end of this most recent report and watch near the end of this recent video. When you are born and raised in such circumstances it is very hard to see right from wrong. As one MHR said the, “young men in my Constituency between the ages of 16-35 are armed, illiterate, unemployable and irredeemable”.

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Kingston unsafe - Global ratings agency gives Jamaica's capital two thumbs down</span>
published: Monday | June 23, 2008
Daraine Luton, Staff Reporter

http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20080623/lead/lead1.html

Let them kill each other

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[Diplomat]

Re: Crime control...

<span style="font-weight: bold">TG:</span> It's not that I don't believe you, but as indicated in a previous post, I'm just wondering some things out aloud. As someone who grew up and attended school in Olympic Gardens/Waterhouse up to my high school years, I know only too well the garrison mentality. I also know that some of my peers who resorted to violence (and I saw LOTS of it) did not do so soley because of then existing, or better yet non-existing, social conditions but greed was a tremendous motivation. They couldn't be bothered going to school when they had other &quot;options&quot;. A lot of us came out of the environment without being tainted by the criminal influence, so in some ways, I understand it. I can also appreciate it has been magnified umpteen fold since. While there is a lot of work to be done in the provision of social services etc., I'm not convinced that within itself, that alone is the solution.

I can't view the video at work but will check it out later.

<span style="font-weight: bold">ETA:</span> I remember when socialism became 'fashionable', the prevailing thought then was not unlike how Cuba was/is. The mindset of a lot of people moved from working for what they wanted to a sense of entitlement, and supposedly the government was going to &quot;take care of them&quot; by taking from the 'haves' and giving to the 'have nots'. That culture was a part of the environment in which garrison communities were born, and unfortunately, with them still being a part of us, obviously we never cycled out of them.

[Diplomat]

Re: Crime control...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One's religious beliefs is supposed to produce change from the inside out. Change the man and his ways of thinking/being results in a change in behaviors, presumably for the better, which eventually effect change in his environment starting with an observation of the golden rule. </div></div> You have it backways,topsy turvy, upside down.
All changes comes as a result of a <span style="font-weight: bold">reaction</span> ro stumili.
Thi sstimuli has to be environmentally originated. Otherwise matter would be dead.
Th eevidence of life is change, but that change is dependent on stumilation, which is dependent on environment.
Ig th eenviooronment is not conducive th echange wull not be as predicted.
That is the basis of acience. and science is nothing but man's understanding of the principles that God created that governs this uinverse. </div></div>
That's a secular point of view that I don't share, so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Crime control...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">TG:</span>
<span style="font-weight: bold">ETA:</span> I remember when socialism became 'fashionable', the prevailing thought then was not unlike how Cuba was/is. The mindset of a lot of people moved from working for what they wanted to a sense of entitlement, and supposedly the government was going to &quot;take care of them&quot; by taking from the 'haves' and giving to the 'have nots'. That culture was a part of the environment in which garrison communities were born, and unfortunately, with them still being a part of us, obviously we never cycled out of them.
</div></div>

Now you have provided the rest of it. Where my brothers, sisters and I had the benefit of a stable upbringing, events were changing rapidly around my Grandmother and us. By the time I got to High School I was walking past barriers, dead men in the streets and fences broken down where there were standing before.

So there were some who managed to maintain, but the Socialist Time now destroyed lives, livelihood and strained cultural relationships. In our Area all the Jamaican Whites and Chinese were chased out and the properties taken over by Party Activist. All or most of the young girls in my area were raped and/or battery ran on them. Again in such circumstances it is difficult for young impressionable persons to make up their minds about right from wrong and whatever they learned was likely to be passed on to their off-springs.

[Diplomat]

Re: Crime control...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">TG:</span>
<span style="font-weight: bold">ETA:</span> I remember when socialism became 'fashionable', the prevailing thought then was not unlike how Cuba was/is. The mindset of a lot of people moved from working for what they wanted to a sense of entitlement, and supposedly the government was going to &quot;take care of them&quot; by taking from the 'haves' and giving to the 'have nots'. That culture was a part of the environment in which garrison communities were born, and unfortunately, with them still being a part of us, obviously we never cycled out of them.
</div></div>

Now you have provided the rest of it. Where my brothers, sisters and I had the benefit of a stable upbringing, events were changing rapidly around my Grandmother and us. By the time I got to High School I was walking past barriers, dead men in the streets and fences broken down where there were standing before.

So there were some who managed to maintain, but the Socialist Time now destroyed lives, livelihood and strained cultural relationships. In our Area all the Jamaican Whites and Chinese were chased out and the properties taken over by Party Activist. All or most of the young girls in my area were raped and/or battery ran on them. Again in such circumstances it is difficult for young impressionable persons to make up their minds about right from wrong and whatever they learned was likely to be passed on to their off-springs.
</div></div>
That's exactly how I remember and experienced it, and I agree with the assessment in your last sentence. Whatever was unleashed then is now the elephant in the living room, and I have no idea how they get it out of the house.

[bee_bop]

Re: Crime control...

TG said:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I first tried to warn the GOJ about the Haitian Gun Running Business about 7 years ago.</div></div>

Littleman says:
<span style="color: #660000">Didn't the gun-running crisis begin after ex-President Aristide's ouster in the 2004 coup, when a group of gunmen entered Haiti from the Dominican Republic (DR). After his ouster, chaos reigned in Haiti requiring the United Nations to take charge of the situation, leading to an armed clash with the same gunmen at a location called 'Jamaica Base', after which they fled back across the border to the DR.
<span style="font-weight: bold">It was said that there were a lot of guns loose after that coup, and the choas that resulted, but that was only about four years ago, not seven, or more.</span></span>

TG said:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am 99% sure neither the Haitian Government nor the Haitian people themselves have any desire to send guns to Jamaica. The problem is both Haiti and Jamaica finds itself in a precarious position where survival of its citizens is concerned guns and drugs have become a way out of that for some individuals.

The resources you spend walling off Haiti from Jamaica could be better spent fixing the lives of your citizens and upgrading our detection, investigation and preventative apparatus.</div></div>

Littleman says:
<span style="color: #660000">I don't believe the present problem is entirely of Haiti's doing, but they are the most obvious culprits. Most likely there is a financier, but that is to be seen.

As I said in my post, there should be a <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 14pt">temporary</span></span> ban on travel between Haiti and Jamaica, and that the only allowable means of travel would be by scheduled airlines. <span style="font-weight: bold">This is not a suggestion of a wall</span>...only that steps are necessary to make the situation manageable.
With a homicide rate among the highest in the world, at this point, <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 14pt">any drastic solution would be suitable</span></span>. <span style="font-weight: bold">Otherwise the only beneficiaries will be morticians, and politicians</span> (notice how the words have similar endings). Closing the sea frontier would make any crossing of the frontier automatically illegal.
Also, as the person quoted, in the Gleaner report, &quot;the gun-runners stage-out from a small island near Haiti,&quot; so it is easy to localize the main area of activity of these gun-runners. Maybe the JDF Coast Guard needs help, but <span style="font-weight: bold">an effort has to be made</span> to stop this crisis from escalating. Confiscating all long distance boats would also be worthwhile at this stage, lives are at stake, anything that holds the potential to <span style="font-weight: bold">stem the flow of bloodletting</span> should be welcome. </span>

[bee_bop]

Re: Crime control...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Littleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Plus yachts do enter Jamaica's waters and dock where they please, usually at a marina, and I suppose they merely show up at a police station, or similar facility. [/color] </div></div>

actually legally you can only arrive in jamaica by sea at one of the 7 official ports of entry ..having arrived at one of these ports you can then be permitted to proceed to the marina of your choice.

anyway back to the argument at hand...... </div></div>

Littleman says:
<span style="color: #660000">Actually, to correct myself, and your messages, there are nine official ports of entry, they are: Kingston's Port Royal, Montego Bay, Port Antonio, Ocho Rios, Port Kaiser, Port Esquivel, Discovery Bay, and Bowden. At these ports immigration, and customs, services are available. This was taken from the following website:

http://jamaica-guide.info/getting.there/sailing.and.yachting/

Retrieved on June 24, 2008.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Although, I believe there are a lot of situations where these requirements are not adhered to, case in point the Haitian influx.</span></span>

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Crime control...


<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">LOL</span>@ this thread!