I have a question for Tuff Gong & Others

[Nylah]

<span style="font-style: italic">I am genuinely curious about this and for the record, I dont feel I know enough about JA politics to throw wud, so dont take it as such. thank you </span>

I know that Tuff Gong is a PNP supported but has made it clear that the politics, antics, policies, and behaviour of the PNP over the years has not been acceptable. What I would like to know is are there any periods within the history of the PNP that they have done anything good?

If so, when were these periods and what are some of the things they have done well?

Also, who within the PNP have done good political work, in your opinion?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: I have a question for Tuff Gong &amp; Others

I think the greatest period of the PNP was in the Manley Senior era, after his son took over the Leadership then became Prime Minister the PNP, first became incapable of building on what it had achieved to that point and taking Jamaica to a point beyond that.

The PNP Leadership then became <span style="font-style: italic">(like Comrade Bob in Zimbabwe)</span>, a corrupt political cabal intent only on winning Elections.
The only 2 positives of the PNP post 1962 was the introduction of the Bauxite Levy <span style="font-style: italic">(hence the Consolidation Fund)</span> and the restriction on the importation of Motor Vehicles <span style="font-style: italic">(occasioned by the 70s Oil Crises and the Foreign Exchange crunch, resulting from the inept handling of the Economy)</span>.

I cannot point to any other significant positives; since on every metric Jamaica has be worse off when the PNP forms the Government.

[Wahalla]

Re: I have a question for Tuff Gong &amp; Others

national stadium and national arena building...

[barosa]

Re: I have a question for Tuff Gong &amp; Others

I would say during the period of Norman Washington Manley (father of Michael) prior to the referendum. The JLP won it which paved the way for them to eventually form the government and ushered in Jamaica's Independence in 1962... I agree that the building of the National Stadium was during his Administration and it was also he who brought in the system that opened the opportunity for nation-wide high school entry and scholarships for our less priviledged children...
_____________________________

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[Wardob]

Re: I have a question for Tuff Gong &amp; Others


Frankly I found the years of Michael Manley PNP very interesting, eye opening and edifying. Under his leadership the PNP challenge the Country to discuss a political system which was in the their closet for years. If you ask so how beneficial was that to the Country? I would say the Country was at a period in time where alternate form of Government had to be looked at and they took the debate to the Country, put their politics on the line and challenge the Country to look at their alternative and choose. It was interesting, and I gave the PNP an “A” for that. The expansion of the Country foreign policy under Michael was new, and something we benefit from today. But my favorite:-

The PNP Project Land Lease, a great program, had Jamaica take it seriously, and expand on it; I wonder where we would be today.


One Love

[bee_bop]

Re: I have a question for Tuff Gong &amp; Others

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the greatest period of the PNP was in the Manley Senior era, after his son took over the Leadership then became Prime Minister the PNP, first became incapable of building on what it had achieved to that point and taking Jamaica to a point beyond that.

The PNP Leadership then became <span style="font-style: italic">(like Comrade Bob in Zimbabwe)</span>, a corrupt political cabal intent only on winning Elections.
The only 2 positives of the PNP post 1962 was the introduction of the Bauxite Levy <span style="font-style: italic">(hence the Consolidation Fund)</span> and the restriction on the importation of Motor Vehicles <span style="font-style: italic">(occasioned by the 70s Oil Crises and the Foreign Exchange crunch, resulting from the inept handling of the Economy)</span>.

I cannot point to any other significant positives; since on every metric Jamaica has be worse off when the PNP forms the Government.
</div></div>

Littleman says:
<span style="color: #660000">If it weren't for the PNP a lot of Jamaican business men wouldn't have gotten business opportunities that they eventually developed. <span style="font-weight: bold">The local business elite were underdogs to the multinational interests</span>, and Manley indirectly empowered them.
Manley may have presided over the <span style="font-style: italic">shafting</span> of the Jamaican economy, but he brought a lot of awareness to Jamaicans. </span>

[Nylah]

Re: I have a question for Tuff Gong &amp; Others

<span style="font-weight: bold">I think the greatest period of the PNP was in the Manley Senior era, after his son took over the Leadership then became Prime Minister the PNP </span>

can I get you to elaborate a bit more please. I am re-reading his grand-daughter's memorir and her praise of her grand-father is quite high - as expected. She skirts around some of her father's accomplishments which is interesting. I get the sense that Manley senior was very crebral in his approach to politics and that his son tried to immulate this but could not pull it off.

<span style="font-weight: bold"> The PNP Project Land Lease, a great program, had Jamaica take it seriously, and expand on it; I wonder where we would be today.</span>

Never heard about this? What exactly did it/does it entail?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: I have a question for Tuff Gong &amp; Others

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Littleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Littleman says:
<span style="color: #660000">If it weren't for the PNP a lot of Jamaican business men wouldn't have gotten business opportunities that they eventually developed. <span style="font-weight: bold">The local business elite were underdogs to the multinational interests</span>, and Manley indirectly empowered them.
Manley may have presided over the <span style="font-style: italic">shafting</span> of the Jamaican economy, but he brought a lot of awareness to Jamaicans. </span> </div></div>

1. what era are you talking about, let me guess the 70s?
2. so in one sentence you claimed that if it wasn't for the PNP:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Littleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If it weren't for the PNP a lot of Jamaican business men wouldn't have gotten business opportunities</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Littleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">The local business elite were underdogs to the multinational interests</span></div></div>

So there was local folks doing business then is that right?

3. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Littleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">The local business elite were underdogs to the multinational interests</span></div></div>

Can you name any and/or all such businesses?

4. [b]The local business elite were underdogs to the multinational interests[/b

LOL.... So apparently it is not enough to just be doing business, if you a subsidiary of a foreign entity you are an underdog?

5. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Littleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....and Manley indirectly empowered them.</div></div>

Can you say exactly how Menlie indirectly empowered these local business owners and gave them opportunity that you seemed to have suggested that they had anyway?

6. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Littleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Manley may have presided over the <span style="font-style: italic">shafting</span> of the Jamaican economy, but he brought a lot of awareness to Jamaicans. [/color] </div></div>

Exactly what do you mean?
Are you saying that Menlie and the PNP destroyed the Jamaican Economy but it was all for the good because he made us know that were are human/Jamaicans/ Crô-Magnon?
Spell it out. Your whole reply looks vague, stupid or just the arguments of an intoxicated person.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: I have a question for Tuff Gong &amp; Others

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nylah</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style="font-weight: bold"> The PNP Project Land Lease, a great program, had Jamaica take it seriously, and expand on it; I wonder where we would be today.</span>

Never heard about this? What exactly did it/does it entail? </div></div>

Like all of the PNP so-called Projects initiated by the PNP post 1970s and beyond this was another great con. It was nothing but another Crash Programme this time for the Rural Folks and an opportunity to create another class of Local Squires, genetically linked to the Party.

[Wardob]

Re: I have a question for Tuff Gong &amp; Others

Tuff… it turns out to be just as you say but look at its purpose. I strongly believe the intent was real. As one who worked in the program while a member of the opposite party, (which got me fired) I found that there certainly was nothing wrong with the idea and the program. The crash program thing makes me laugh; you would surprise to know who and who now in high ofices of Government, that makes full use of this PNP crash program. Anyhow what it turns out to be is another question, but more important is what it could have been

So to answer the question here is how I was told and undertand it to be. Project Land Lease was in my opinion Michael most visionary plan. Over 2,000 young people (None tradition farmers) were put on the land, they were leased up to 5 acres of land, for the purpose of agriculture, in some case, they were leased land, with newly built houses, with all the modern days facilities and amenities, and those that were interested in Dairy Framing or Beef Cattle rearing would be given a pair of both animals. The use of equipment, such as tractors was available seeds and fertilizers along with the expertise of agriculture extension officers free of cost. There was also a guarantee market, and price.
Government through its AMC would purchase the products which they intern sold to foreign countries. But more importantly, and again frankly I believe Michael’s intent was to have Jamaica feed itself (and do we need that today) and revolutionized the whole agriculture sector.
The program was to be extended throughout the Country, taking in the tradition small farmers and some of the larger ones. Steps were taken to develop the land and sea fishing industry and in that regards the Fisheries department of the Ministry of Agriculture was strengthen and low cost equipment was provided for the said purpose.

Under the said program their was a push to develop horticulture, re-planting of our dying traditional crops such a Mangoes, Guava, Cashew , Nesberry, Sweetsop, Soursop, etc, etc
Farms such as Spring Plains, Nahery farms and Shettlewood Dairies, were highly successful, in the first leg of the program, until politics raised its ugly the head, the rest is history. In fairness to Mr. Seaga I must say, that he tried to continue the programs, but again that ugly giant in our midst stepped in.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: I have a question for Tuff Gong &amp; Others

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wardob</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Tuff… it turns out to be just as you say but look at its purpose. I strongly believe the intent was real. As one who worked in the program while a member of the opposite party, (which got me fired) I found that there certainly was nothing wrong with the idea and the program. The crash program thing makes me laugh; you would surprise to know who and who now in high ofices of Government, that makes full use of this PNP crash program. Anyhow what it turns out to be is another question, but more important is what it could have been

So to answer the question here is how I was told and undertand it to be. Project Land Lease was in my opinion Michael most visionary plan. Over 2,000 young people (None tradition farmers) were put on the land, they were leased up to 5 acres of land, for the purpose of agriculture, in some case, they were leased land, with newly built houses, with all the modern days facilities and amenities, and those that were interested in Dairy Framing or Beef Cattle rearing would be given a pair of both animals. The use of equipment, such as tractors was available seeds and fertilizers along with the expertise of agriculture extension officers free of cost. There was also a guarantee market, and price.
Government through its AMC would purchase the products which they intern sold to foreign countries. But more importantly, and again frankly I believe Michael’s intent was to have Jamaica feed itself (and do we need that today) and revolutionized the whole agriculture sector.
The program was to be extended throughout the Country, taking in the tradition small farmers and some of the larger ones. Steps were taken to develop the land and sea fishing industry and in that regards the Fisheries department of the Ministry of Agriculture was strengthen and low cost equipment was provided for the said purpose.

Under the said program their was a push to develop horticulture, re-planting of our dying traditional crops such a Mangoes, Guava, Cashew , Nesberry, Sweetsop, Soursop, etc, etc
Farms such as Spring Plains, Nahery farms and Shettlewood Dairies, were highly successful, in the first leg of the program, until politics raised its ugly the head, the rest is history. In fairness to Mr. Seaga I must say, that he tried to continue the programs, but again that ugly giant in our midst stepped in.
</div></div>

The fact that you were fired from a so-called Good Project simply because you were a Labourte tells us everything we need to know.

Like all PNP Programmes and Projects, the literature reads better than the implementation. Shettlewood was a successful farm till the PNP thugs captured it. Sheer momentum possibly carried it forward for a while but then the Comrade way of running tings kicked in.

On the retirement of Eddie Blinds Comrade Roger Clarke admitted publicly that the PNP was worried about Eddie Seaga's Drip Irrigation Project, they feared it was working too well thereby causing them to <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">lose the Election</span>.
As it is they did everything to discredit Eddie Blinds, the project and every progressive ventures of the kind and now look where we at?

[barosa]

Re: I have a question for Tuff Gong &amp; Others

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On the retirement of Eddie Blinds Comrade Roger Clarke admitted publicly that the PNP was worried about Eddie Seaga's Drip Irrigation Project, they feared it was working too well thereby causing them to lose the Election.
As it is they did everything to discredit Eddie Blinds, the project and every progressive ventures of the kind and now look where we at?</div></div>
By the looks of it and looking back, I have to wonder if Jamaica was lightyears ahead of the States when it comes to &quot;lowdown negative&quot; politics...
_____________________________

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[evanovitch]

Re: I have a question for Tuff Gong &amp; Others

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would say during the period of Norman Washington Manley (father of Michael) prior to the referendum. The JLP won it which paved the way for them to eventually form the government and ushered in Jamaica's Independence in 1962... I agree that the building of the National Stadium was during his Administration and it was also he who brought in the system that opened the opportunity for nation-wide high school entry and scholarships for our less priviledged children...
_____________________________

The more things change, the more they stay the same. </div></div>

u sure bout dat....i can think of Edwin Allen and Newland i believe di odda guy name was...wicheva one was di Minister of Labour r Works r wateva dem called it bak in dem days....THEY did the school building that is still the measure for today....Fada Manley was impressive yes, but there was an air of entitlement among all of those who were wid him...but then i might be prejudiced seeing dat is an argument wid Glasspole during dose days that lead to my pater leaving di party fi laba... an it had to do wid some class prejudice dat a man of darker hue dan mi pater thought was kosher to hold an say out loud...

[evanovitch]

Re: I have a question for Tuff Gong &amp; Others

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nylah</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style="font-weight: bold">I think the greatest period of the PNP was in the Manley Senior era, after his son took over the Leadership then became Prime Minister the PNP </span>

can I get you to elaborate a bit more please. I am re-reading his grand-daughter's memorir and her praise of her grand-father is quite high - as expected. She skirts around some of her father's accomplishments which is interesting. I get the sense that Manley senior was very crebral in his approach to politics and that his son tried to immulate this but could not pull it off.

<span style="font-weight: bold"> The PNP Project Land Lease, a great program, had Jamaica take it seriously, and expand on it; I wonder where we would be today.</span>

Never heard about this? What exactly did it/does it entail? </div></div>

to me Fada Manley's national accomplishments will always be clouded by the National Fruit Company r wateva dat America conglomerate did name....at the onset of Independence , a fair an equitable deal would have put our workers and the new Nation off to a good stawt...his complicity is one i have neva understood , given his supposed nationalism..it cant have been for money cause he had to sell Drumblair to live wen JLP took ovah...so i wonder what failed promises were made

[evanovitch]

Re: I have a question for Tuff Gong &amp; Others

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wardob</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Tuff… it turns out to be just as you say but look at its purpose. I strongly believe the intent was real. As one who worked in the program while a member of the opposite party, (which got me fired) I found that there certainly was nothing wrong with the idea and the program. The crash program thing makes me laugh; you would surprise to know who and who now in high ofices of Government, that makes full use of this PNP crash program. Anyhow what it turns out to be is another question, but more important is what it could have been

So to answer the question here is how I was told and undertand it to be. Project Land Lease was in my opinion Michael most visionary plan. Over 2,000 young people (None tradition farmers) were put on the land, they were leased up to 5 acres of land, for the purpose of agriculture, in some case, they were leased land, with newly built houses, with all the modern days facilities and amenities, and those that were interested in Dairy Framing or Beef Cattle rearing would be given a pair of both animals. The use of equipment, such as tractors was available seeds and fertilizers along with the expertise of agriculture extension officers free of cost. There was also a guarantee market, and price.
Government through its AMC would purchase the products which they intern sold to foreign countries. But more importantly, and again frankly I believe Michael’s intent was to have Jamaica feed itself (and do we need that today) and revolutionized the whole agriculture sector.
The program was to be extended throughout the Country, taking in the tradition small farmers and some of the larger ones. Steps were taken to develop the land and sea fishing industry and in that regards the Fisheries department of the Ministry of Agriculture was strengthen and low cost equipment was provided for the said purpose.

Under the said program their was a push to develop horticulture, re-planting of our dying traditional crops such a Mangoes, Guava, Cashew , Nesberry, Sweetsop, Soursop, etc, etc
Farms such as Spring Plains, Nahery farms and Shettlewood Dairies, were highly successful, in the first leg of the program, until politics raised its ugly the head, the rest is history. In fairness to Mr. Seaga I must say, that he tried to continue the programs, but again that ugly giant in our midst stepped in.
</div></div>

The fact that you were fired from a so-called Good Project simply because you were a Labourte tells us everything we need to know.

Like all PNP Programmes and Projects, the literature reads better than the implementation. Shettlewood was a successful farm till the PNP thugs captured it. Sheer momentum possibly carried it forward for a while but then the Comrade way of running tings kicked in.

On the retirement of Eddie Blinds Comrade Roger Clarke admitted publicly that the PNP was worried about Eddie Seaga's Drip Irrigation Project, they feared it was working too well thereby causing them to <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">lose the Election</span>.
As it is they did everything to discredit Eddie Blinds, the project and every progressive ventures of the kind and now look where we at?
</div></div>

Uncle Eddie is a ignorant man in the way Jcans r ignorant...opinionated, shawt tempered an can hole a grudge...but he is brilliant an one ting nobody can tek from him, he was fawud tinking an had more TRUE nationalism dan many who claim african skin colour....him neva form play wid him interest in tings Jamaican an if nuff whe him did stawt did build upon, yaad wud be a betta place