the fundamentals

[Wahalla]

The Current situation truly started in the 70's when Manley tried to redress the racial and class divided that had existed in Jamaica using a socialist model.....Democartic Socialism
The Western powers made preparations for its failure and implemented them. The sharp rise in oil prices also help to exasperate the situation. It is these factors to which I am referring when I say Jamaica was coerced.

Please elucidated further on the "taking the money in the 80's from the soviet Union" as far as I can recalled it was an extension of credit to buy Soviet Goods in exchange for Jamaica's alumina/bauxite.....Lada cars
The Cuban situation is more of the same as the Soviet....Cuban schools,Housing, brigadista, and doctors.
Correct me if I am wrong but I do not remember actual funds changing hands?
These were exchanges of goods and services....Bata

China loans were for Major Infrastructure development as we needed new and improved roads gullies, dams, sidewalks etc and the were the lowest and the best offer outstanding.
Yes actual funds changed hands in this deal....in excess of 300 million.

The Risk from Petrocaribe is dependent on political situation in Venezuela as the US continues to pressure the Party of Chavez, which so far has stick to the agreements reached. In short the agreements work as a forebearance at 1% per anum, from which the saving should be used on social infrastucture for the poor.
Tell me of the loans in the petrocaribe deal?

Beyond LOME I do not know much about the "Euro stabilization loans" but based on what you say it seems like another Western scam in which we get nothing but more debt.
Tell me more?

These are my understandings please show me wherein we differ....so that we may arrive at an accurate picture.

manley and his government were incompetent at management of the economy.. and began Democratic Socialism effectively a distribution of wealth without any encouragement of wealth creation. (to quote orlando patterson " you wouldnt want them to run a chicken coop not a government" ) .. all the loans we have had since Manley should have paved every singe road in Jamaica as well cleared every gullly as well as a school every 5 miles.. Look at the Budget numbers then and you see...

We took a number of loans from the soviet union... i recall one of 75 million and another of 25 million and these loans were in the form of goods in kind.. the lada cars, capital equipment, paper ect...these are still being serviced. Nothing to the infra structure....

We have been funding our budget to the order of 20-30% of loans every year : This goes to cover the budget short fall... (unlike thhe UK where the loans go to service the debt tbbese go toward the day to day running of the country importation of consumables not investemtn in )... that is incompetence to the extent that our debt is 125% of the GDP and rising each year...

When you borrow you have to repay....

Is there video of PJ, Matalon, Samuda Seymour, Omar and Peter having sex with juvenile goats that the CIA threaten to release to coherse them taking loans ????? or wwere they not aware of the the simple fact that Bond yeild / loans rates are not fixed... that much is basically known so when yopu take a loan and the rate increases that is basic knowledge...

Petrocaribe is going to falter in the next year and Jamaica will have to pay the real price for energy..... this will lower Jamaica competitive edge we should have got.. with those low interest rate loans still coming due in twenty years time...

(Venezuela is going to default on its own loans as they have high inflation and oil price is at 85 US and falling when they need over 110 to balance their books... Petro Caribe will be the first to go... How do i know this, Venezuela are trying to sell the CITGO their US based company so when they default on the agreed loans the courts wont approrioate. )

[franksterr]

manley and his government were incompetent at management of the economy.. and began Democratic Socialism effectively a distribution of wealth without any encouragement of wealth creation. (to quote orlando patterson " you wouldnt want them to run a chicken coop not a government" ) .. all the loans we have had since Manley should have paved every singe road in Jamaica as well cleared every gullly as well as a school every 5 miles.. Look at the Budget numbers then and you see...

As a graduate of the London School of Economics I would presume that he know more about economics than the average chicken farmer.
Manley first and primary goal was to redress the unequal distribution of wealth in Jamaica and ridding the country unfair social practices based on race institute during colonial times.
The loans given to Jamaica in 1970's were called SAP which the agencies which promoted these types of loans now admitted never work in poor countries......Odious Loans/Predatory Lending - design to create dependency.

We took a number of loans from the soviet union... i recall one of 75 million and another of 25 million and these loans were in the form of goods in kind.. the lada cars, capital equipment, paper ect...these are still being serviced. Nothing to the infra structure....

Most of the saving realized from that trade agreement was used to buy back Bauxite Lands and redistributed to landless farmers....farm program

We have been funding our budget to the order of 20-30% of loans every year : This goes to cover the budget short fall... (unlike thhe UK where the loans go to service the debt tbbese go toward the day to day running of the country importation of consumables not investemtn in )... that is incompetence to the extent that our debt is 125% of the GDP and rising each year...

Almost 40% of Jamaica's GDP is used to service IMF loans alone, when a poor country is saddle with such a heavy debt burden and loan agreements restrict capital investment in social programs and infrastructure.

When you borrow you have to repay....

No....not when it is considered Predatory or Odious.

Is there video of PJ, Matalon, Samuda Seymour, Omar and Peter having sex with juvenile goats that the CIA threaten to release to coherse them taking loans ????? or wwere they not aware of the the simple fact that Bond yeild / loans rates are not fixed... that much is basically known so when yopu take a loan and the rate increases that is basic knowledge...

In the 70's they were social upheavals that acts as threats.....If you cannot make or meet your balance of payments obligation you are under threat.
This Laid the foundation for the continued cycle of loans and more loans as we tumble deeper into debt.....its Usurious.
These loans were given with the intent that the borrower would never be able to pay them off... Hence the reason for the Responsible Sovereign Lending and Borrowing act in the UN.

Petrocaribe is going to falter in the next year and Jamaica will have to pay the real price for energy..... this will lower Jamaica competitive edge we should have got.. with those low interest rate loans still coming due in twenty years time...

(Venezuela is going to default on its own loans as they have high inflation and oil price is at 85 US and falling when they need over 110 to balance their books... Petro Caribe will be the first to go... How do i know this, Venezuela are trying to sell the CITGO their US based company so when they default on the agreed loans the courts wont approrioate. )

That maybe as when the mighty US is against and agreement it often falters soon enough......but if and until then it seems to be a good deal for Jamaica.
What should we have refused the cheaper Venezuelan oil and seek the more expensive oil??? where would we be then or now????

[Wahalla]

As a graduate of the London School of Economics I would presume that he know more about economics than the average chicken farmer.

Did he actually get a degree ????? Tnat is an intriguing question that has been avoided....

At the time the LSE was a bastion of left wing economics thinking. At a time when the UK state was in the throes of the great nationalisation and this was the received wisdom... which formulated that the state was the driver of the economy. Keynesian in extremis, Marxism as the only driver. Out of this grew the failure of the 70's with the state over taking the productive nature.. in the in the UK until thatcher had to privatise coal, BA, Telecoms in order for them to grow... ... Had he even read Hayek dissertation of the failure of the state to develop he would not have made the same failures as the cautions that Hayek predicted would have prevented capital flight and managemetn by slogan shouting....

As for land to the Landless that was a myth... What happened was the creation of Land Lease.. actually it was an expansion of a preexisting system. Land was and is never short to any farmer in Jamaica all is needed is simple legally binding lease agreements. Lots of land was and is avaialbe cheaply in Jamaica, land owners will and still give land to people who ask to lease it.....

The myths of unutilised land a lot of it was unsuuitable in fact it led to the destruction of the last remaining natural -primary growth forest in the Santa Cruz mountain as agriculture officers from the MOA demanded that the land owner develop a 50 acre track. (primary in competency.. This land was pure rock and was handed ot party hacks who abandoned it aftyer three growing seasons of failure they left it to fgo get the Bauxite land of landlease).

Land Lease and after one growing season a greater expansion, lots of noise more than half the land was abandoned. and a fuurhter 50 % abandoned after two seasons.... Land does not make farmers... water skills markets...do... Land lease was a failure... How i now look at the improt bill from 73 to 76.... Honslow a nother example of land distribution was a failure....The ministry of Agriculture were in competent... Success in agriculture was from the Jamaica Broilers assocoiation and Carribean broilers association private enterprises ....

teh sugar coops failures.... as they failed to produce and cosistantly stmied industrilisation of the process.... How can members of a cooprotive go on strike as they did a number of times....


The grant money to support was spent on the purchase of consumer goods which led to inflation in 73, 74.... Basic economic theory ...

[franksterr]

Did he actually get a degree ????? Tnat is an intriguing question that has been avoided....

At the time the LSE was a bastion of left wing economics thinking. At a time when the UK state was in the throes of the great nationalisation and this was the received wisdom... which formulated that the state was the driver of the economy. Keynesian in extremis, Marxism as the only driver. Out of this grew the failure of the 70's with the state over taking the productive nature.. in the in the UK until thatcher had to privatise coal, BA, Telecoms in order for them to grow... ... Had he even read Hayek dissertation of the failure of the state to develop he would not have made the same failures as the cautions that Hayek predicted would have prevented capital flight and managemetn by slogan shouting....

As for land to the Landless that was a myth... What happened was the creation of Land Lease.. actually it was an expansion of a preexisting system. Land was and is never short to any farmer in Jamaica all is needed is simple legally binding lease agreements. Lots of land was and is avaialbe cheaply in Jamaica, land owners will and still give land to people who ask to lease it.....

He was a Graduate of a tertiary institution of the first order, it is safe to presume he knew more than a little about economics.
Land was and is never cheap (cheap is a relative term) in Jamaica, had this not been so Manley would have no need for the Farm Program....

"We are the Sons of Slaves who have been paying rent to the Landlords for fully many decades we want better wages, we have been exploited for years and we are looking to you to help us. We want a Minimum Wage Law. We want freedom in this the hundredth year of our Emancipation. We are still economic slaves, burdened in paying rent to Landlords who are sucking out our vitalities."28

Agitation was conducted by Rumble and his organisation for land for the peasants and proto-peasants and for better wages for agricultural workers. A movement to refuse to pay any more rent to landlords began to spread and, in some areas, land hungry people seized estate lands. This was fuelled by the revival of a widely held belief that Queen Victoria had promised that, 100 years after their emancipation, the slaves who had got nothing at the time of the abolition of slavery would inherit the land. Tenants and others who seized lands began to erect fences and offered to pay taxes on the lands the ownership of which they claimed to have acquired.29

http://www.socialisthistorysociety.co.uk/HART.HTM#28

The myths of unutilised land a lot of it was unsuuitable in fact it led to the destruction of the last remaining natural -primary growth forest in the Santa Cruz mountain as agriculture officers from the MOA demanded that the land owner develop a 50 acre track. (primary in competency.. This land was pure rock and was handed ot party hacks who abandoned it aftyer three growing seasons of failure they left it to fgo get the Bauxite land of landlease).

Land Lease and after one growing season a greater expansion, lots of noise more than half the land was abandoned. and a fuurhter 50 % abandoned after two seasons.... Land does not make farmers... water skills markets...do... Land lease was a failure... How i now look at the improt bill from 73 to 76.... Honslow a nother example of land distribution was a failure....The ministry of Agriculture were in competent... Success in agriculture was from the Jamaica Broilers assocoiation and Carribean broilers association private enterprises ....

It was no Myth the best Lands laid unutilised in the hand of rich landowners who charged exorbitant rent to small and subsistence farmers.

teh sugar coops failures.... as they failed to produce and cosistantly stmied industrilisation of the process.... How can members of a cooprotive go on strike as they did a number of times....


The grant money to support was spent on the purchase of consumer goods which led to inflation in 73, 74.... Basic economic theory ...

These were the same arguments used against Mugabe when he began reform, now that the interventions and subterfuge are spent. All they can now say is that Zimbabwe land reform is a success. Things take time and even more so when rich and powerful people and States want you to fail.